Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.

30:31It's a one, two, three, four, bell. Not six, seven, eight, nine, 10. So Carl Weathers is like, what's going on? Like you're throwing punches and you're trying to ad lib and then it looks really fake, you know what I mean? I go, ring the bell, you know, whoever yelled at me. And it became, like I said, oh God, it's a really bad Italian drama. And of course it ended up in an altercation by the end of the round. You know, it got really nasty. But for a moment, I thought, Jesus, he'd be proud. And later you end up inviting your mom to the Oscars. Yeah. For Rocky. So then you call her up and you say, hey, this film, I might win an Oscar for it.

31:21Who's in it? And she blows you off. Can I ask you about your mom specifically? Because as we've discussed here, she was difficult. This is putting it lightly. You're quite scathing about her in the book. And then in the 1990s, she becomes like a celebrity psychic. I'm Jackie Stallone, psychic astrologer to the stars. I have predicted fame and fortune for movie stars and celebrities all over the world. And I just wondered, to jump a little later into your life and your relationship with your parents, how did you manage the dynamics when, you know, she sees proximity to your fame as a financial opportunity?

32:06I mean, that must have been a hard dynamic to manage. It was very hard. It was very hard because she had been married three more times. And then I saw her posing as a psychic with a turban and rhinestones and this overinflated sense of like buffoonery. Or she would go on Howard Stern and mock my father and call him like terrible things. And then they'd get on the phone and I had my father and mother fighting on Howard Stern. and go, what other guy has to go through this? Yeah, this was 1992. They had this horrible on-air argument. But you two produced a movie star. Let's say you guys did produce a movie star.

32:48No help from him. Any guy could have done the job in three seconds. He didn't even want Sylvester. He tried to get me to have an abortion. Really? It's unbelievable. Why would you go on and humiliate yourself? You're humiliating me and my children. Stop. I'll pay you anything to do whatever you want. The finest restaurants, anything. Just live your life and just try to be proud. He goes, why aren't you proud of me? I went, there it is. I'll never forget. And I asked, I said, have you ever done anything wrong? I mean, do you have any regrets? He goes, no. Why? I went, wow. I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets.

33:31I mean, when people say I have no regrets, I go, bullshit. Come on. Really? You're that perfect? Everything was just, right? And that's just the way it was to the day she died. And the last effort at the Oscars, I thought, 10 months earlier, I was basically homeless. Now we're with incredible competition, and you don't want to go. See, here it is. I'll put it in a nutshell. She never wanted to be alone with me, ever. And she didn't go. And she stuck to her guns. And it really hurt me hard. I won't, see, I won't go there anymore. You know, that kind of, but it does affect you. My wife, I know, it's hard to get over it.

34:18It's very nagging. It's a nagging scar that won't fully close. And every now and then it weeps. But again, that's your cross to bear. Maybe that's why you had this certain sort of selective rage. Did you go to therapy later in your life? No. I said it's not going to help. It's just not going to help because it doesn't go away. You cover all this subterfuge and ideology and intellectual this and that and breathing and meditation until that moment late at night. And you're right back. And now you're in anxiety. You ever have anxiety? Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has, it's coming from something that's so deep-rooted.

35:11Tell me about when you first suffered anxiety. It was the first time I did. It was when I was 36. Mm-hmm. And I was watching dailies. And then all of a sudden I stood up and the hair on my neck went up. I started getting hot. I go, I'm dying. This is it. I'm on my way out. Heart banged down. I went, took a knee, crawled, rolled over. And then now I'm in this dark, like movie theater. I go, I'm on my way out. Where the fuck did this come from? And then it happened again and again and again. They went away for five years. And then it always seems to happen, like, as you're ready to go on the Today Show.

35:56Like, oh, boom, eight seconds. and you feel it coming on. Anybody got Xanax? It's too late. So you're just sitting there holding your chair going, I feel for it. I mean, it's not a joke. No. Anxiety. It's like, no. I think people would find it very heartening that you have experienced that. Oh, my God. Especially as I got older, and it was weird. when I'm in a crowd I'd be with my wife at an art exposition and the room is filling up, it's getting more and more and more and then I go, I'm going I'm going down and she goes, let's get out of here and literally I just make it to the alley, boom get down on one knee did it again and I was at the mayor's office of Philadelphia receiving some award and everyone sort of crowded me in the corner I said, I have to go, thank you very much and I just made it out of there.

36:58And I go, hmm, what is that indicative of? It never bothered you before. So there's something still bubbling inside, festering. It's a marvel, for example, that we still have magma and lava four billion years later in the center of the earth. How long does it take to cool an egg? I mean, my God. So the same thing, our emotions are always on the verge of eruption. Despite having such a, I don't even know the word anymore, upsetting upbringing, you've become a father of five. Yeah. What did you learn about being a good parent, considering you didn't really at all have role models for that? I really wasn't a very good parent.

37:49My wife, Jennifer, is the greatest woman ever before. I mean, seriously, she's just like my guardian angel. I would have been dead like three times, for real. And she just is the most giving. I don't have that gear of just abandonment of your own personal self for someone else. It's really unbelievable. And she raised my daughters that way. In my first marriage, it wasn't like that. And I was in my warrior mode. I was like, oh, let's conquer the world. You know, this is your moment. And everything fell by the wayside. And it was just a measly manner of existence. It really was. It was reality was the movie set.

38:41The surreal world was my life. I have no control out here. I'm at everyone's beck and call. I don't like it. I couldn't wait to work again. Terrible to say that, but it's true.

39:01You suffered an unimaginable loss in 2012 when your eldest son, Sage, died. He had an undiagnosed heart condition that killed him when he was only 36. And I just want to say I'm so sorry. Thank you. I imagine that must have profoundly changed you. Oh. You know, the thing is, you know, you have so many episodes of guilt. Like, what could I have done? Should I have been there if I did that? If I went right, right, left. I had no idea that, I mean, it was stunning. Like, I'll never forget. It was so cold. My mother's new husband, I never met, he was a doctor. I get a phone call Friday the 13th. He goes, Sly, Stephen, he's gone.

40:00Who's gone? He goes, Sage, he's gone. Gone where? He's died. He's gone. I'm sorry. Click. I said, is this possible? That's how you found him? That's how, yeah, that's how. He's gone, he's gone. Dead, sorry. And it wasn't, you know, because of the funeral, because of all the, again, you know, dealing with the mother, dealing with your life in the present. And it just takes you into a whole other world. And I'll never forget. I go, well, I'm holding it together. When's it going to happen? And then, about a week later, I was all alone in my room, and a wail came out of me. I've never heard before or since.

40:57It was just such pain and grief and guilt. And it was just a, it was not human. It really wasn't. But all I can say is that he was a very kind kid. He had a great mother, a nice, you know, he would have done wonderful things in the future. I just had no idea that he had something that you would expect a very advanced adult to have. But no, you don't get over that. No.

41:42I'm sorry.

41:49Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky. It got 10 Oscar nominations. It ended up winning Best Picture.

42:05And it's not just the film, but you end up capturing the public's imagination because it was this fairy tale story. And I'm very interested in you looking back at this transition from becoming a struggling actor to suddenly becoming the hottest star in Hollywood because in the book, there is this picture of you, which is very poignant. And the caption reads, my last day of being anonymous. That's right. And I thought, what an interesting thing to put in a book that you can delineate that moment, you know, where you could walk the streets and no one would know Sylvester Stallone. And then after, that was never going to be the case again.

42:58It was a tsunami. The movie started at 12 noon. And at 2, people started coming. They saw me and it was a deluge of being completely obscure for 30 years about, just walking through being a non-entity to now being this celebrity and someone who has tapped into their hearts in more than just a movie. Like, hey, that was a great action film. It was like, that's my story. That's this, that's that. I went, oh, my God. And I could hear the applause. applause at a movie theater it was like a an event and I'm looking at my brother you're in for it now pal and that's it really was just overnight it was just overnight I don't know if it's never happened again obviously it's just one of the it's the rarest combination of obscurity to fame in a matter of two hours that's documented It's like, whoa.

44:07Did you look at fame as something in the same way as the psych ward? And let me try to explain what I mean, which is this isn't going to change me, or did you look at it as this is everything I'd ever wanted?

44:29Well, I don't know if it changed me, but it allowed me. some people it well it didn't break me what it did is it it made me combative it made me very um i told you so revengeful spiteful and um all the rejection everything else it was i mean oh my god it was so insufferable i really was even with the new york times and oh madam bovarty anyone could write that. It was just, I don't know. I mean, Lily was, I became a petulant child. I really did. And years later, I mean, I despised myself. I'm surprised I'm still here. I managed to alienate the entire press. I really did. And people that believed in me and so on, I just was not, I was just not humble.

45:30There was no humility whatsoever. Again, it's just childhood eruptions coming to the surface at the most inopportune times. I want to talk about some of the people you worked with and came across in the 80s. And, of course, we're going to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who you're now friends with, we should say. But he was a huge action star back then. And you said you couldn't stand to be in the same room. No. I mean, why did you hate him so much? What was it? What was it? Like, take me back before the friendship. Because he was a challenge. He was, I thought I had something going on. And then I could see this guy, this immovable force, a very confident human being.

46:11I think even more so than me and more psychological in the way he would manipulate and do things very cunningly. And not in a negative way, but just shrewdly. He's a smart guy. When I was blunt force, he would, Machiavellian, cool. And I went, God damn it. And he's winning these awards, and he's a bodybuilder. And I consider myself somewhat more of a... A thespian. A thespian, a dramaturge, you know, that kind of thing. A peripatetic dramaturge just wandering the country acting. And I went, wow, this is my guy. This is the guy I know I'm going to have trouble with, period. And sure enough, we did.

46:54We were just going at each other, which turned out to be fantastic. and you know I've had some moments with him and I'm regretful for some of the things I've said about him but he antagonized me in a creative way and I did to him I was a thorn in his side he was a thorn in my side but it just forced us to keep moving higher bigger guns louder moving more action disabled bodies everything until I think we really carved out a niche that'll never quite come around again, that certain 80s, over-the-top action genre that he and I sort of pioneered. You did. Yeah. It's like a creative marriage in a way.

47:37It is. I mean, so it's like Ali and Fraser. You need that thing that brings you to the surface that more than any other person, it's just, it's not even hatred. This guy, he woke away. I dream about him. It's like I'm on his mind. He's on my mind. It's very rare. You know what I mean? Men get it. I'm sure women get it too. But two alpha men who I can only relate to, it's like you can't wait to go against him, that kind of thing. And then he does better than you. And then he just gloats on it. Oh, I see the Stallone's film didn't perform very well. Oh, oh, oh. And then vice versa. And then eventually we end up working together in Expendables.

48:26And I go on the campaign trail for him. Unbelievable. When was the moment that you two, that you thought we put this to rest? I mean, did it just come with age and him moving into politics and just sort of? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At first I thought, come on. Actors in politics, this is oil and water. because we tend to, actors are really very, very self-absorbed. And politicians, if they're really good, should be just the opposite, publicly absorbed. So I saw there's a conflict there. But he was definitely sincere about it. And I don't know why, but he asked me, we're at a cigar place. Would you like to be at an event?

49:13I went, yeah. I go, why did I say that? And then sure enough, then we hit it off. And he's a very, very unique, I mean, he's one of a kind, forget it. It's just, I'm telling you. So until that moment, you really hadn't spent time with him. You didn't know if you even liked him. I'm telling you, we always came to blows. When we were at Planet Hollywood, we couldn't stand to be in the same arena. Right, because in the early 90s, you founded, with Bruce Willis as well, Planet Hollywood. and you couldn't even, you were in business together, but you couldn't stand being in the same room. Oh, my God.

49:47I'll never forget, there's a picture of he and I dancing. And it was, I think, was it Total Recall or something? And it was at the Hotel Du Cap in the afternoon. It's festive and everyone's there. Oh, no, take a picture. Okay, slide, take a picture. Okay, take a picture together. I go, director, why don't you come in here and get in the middle? I went, oh, man. And then I grab him. And, like, we're waltzing. And he goes, to me, it's the greatest picture because I said, let's put this, let's stop. You know what I mean? Let's just do this dance because that's what it is, you know. But it's never going to be.

50:29You could do a movie about this, for real. You really could. Yes, you could. You really could. All right. We don't have much time. That's why I'm going like that. And I'm upset because I have so much to ask you. So I'm going to skip asking you about working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition Man and Sharon Stone and the specialists. So we're going to move on. Bye, ladies. Yeah. Bye, ladies. Indeed. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. What I do want to ask you is about your body. Body? Body. Yes. Your physique. Now you're getting personal. Because at several points in your career, you were exceptionally muscular, which wasn't your build before Rocky.

51:12And I was really curious how your relationship with your body has changed over time. How, you know, you saw yourself and then how when you turned into this big action star with big muscles and everyone was sort of venerating that. How did you see yourself? How did your relationship with that change over time? It became very intimate, you might say. It was my armor. I looked at like Rocky, Rocky, very smooth, very normal looking guy. And then I said, if we move on, you have to, I think the character would start to become a bit more vain. And then if Rambo, you're playing a warrior, you'd be a little bit more animalistic.

51:59You wouldn't be so smooth. So I started to think, design your body like a jaguar, a cat. Not big like Arnold, but more feral and aggressive and very limber and move and athletic. And then it became an obsession. Really bad. It became to the point where I became bulimic. You didn't know that. Okay. I didn't know. You heard it here first. Yeah, because it was like, you know, you would eat. I got down to 2.6 body fat when I was doing Rocky III in the opening scene. Literally like, go for it. You know, like hollow. And I couldn't hold anything down. Or if I did, I didn't want to keep it down because I wanted to.

52:43I became so obsessed at staying at that point of fitness. And then finally, you know, I just broke the cycle. But it got to me. Literally an obsessive body worship kind of a thing. And then, you know, nobody does it without, you know, additives and drugs, period. I don't care who they say. Bullshit. It has to. But then again, it isn't as though you're a junkie. But it's if you're going to put on, if you're going to work and try to stay in shape for six months straight and you're eating yogurt and pudding and it's not happening. You know, you're just not. Just like these. So you're taking steroids, you're saying.

53:23Oh, my God. You have to. But you do it in a sense, in a way, six weeks off. And people go, oh, you don't get that way naturally. No, you don't. You don't, unless you're just a freak of nature. So everyone who says it, I can see a mile away, you know, what is obvious. But that also took a terrible toll. Terrible toll. Emotionally, too, because it affects your moods and everything. It wasn't until I did Copland where I had to, like, divest myself of that and played the weakest guy in the room, partially deaf, overweight, everything, that I really felt somewhat liberated. Then things went sideways.

54:04And I don't know, I just fell out of grace with Hollywood. But yeah, the body has played a... But I've abused it. I've had nine back operation, two shoulder operation, three neck fusions, everything. Everything is held together with bailing wire. but I still have that, hmm, want to stay in good shape. Do you still see it as your armor? No, that, no, no, no. Because you're still fit, you're 80? I'm sort of fit, but, you know, I've got all kinds of, you know, take a lot of pills to keep going, you know, that kind of thing. It's coming at a terrible price. If I could do it over again, I would say, let someone else carry the banner.

54:50Don't do your own stunts, you know. I don't know what it was about just hurting myself all the time. I mean, all the time. Is it masochistic? Yeah, very masochistic. It's not like I'm self-flagellating, but if someone's going to dive onto the canvas and Rocky, they take a hit full force and go backwards and land, thud. Because there's no padding. You're like landing on a board with a little thin canvas. It just jars you and jars you. But you go, I can do better. I can do better. And this is all going back to dad and, you know, back there in the polo field. Like, no, you're not going to break me.

55:31But it does break. You do get broken a little bit physically, not mentally. We're going to talk again. But I want to end with something that you said about regret. Yeah. And that you don't get to be your age, your career without a mountain of them. And we've kind of touched on that a little. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. It really is. Because, you know, it's the fog of war, the war of trying to succeed. And you can blame it on that or just self-pedi, self-absorption. And you go, wow. And it is painful. But yesterday is dead. The future is unknown. All we got is today. You keep going back to that philosophy.

56:21And you go, you know, forgive yourself. I go, no. You don't mean forgive yourself for being a bastard. No, you just regret. You know, I wish I hadn't done that, wish I hadn't done that. So I'm not going to do that anymore, but God. Because what you did, you hurt yourself. You really did. Yeah, you denied people your love and this and that. But you also did worse to yourself. Have you forgiven your parents?

56:56I've accepted that they are who they are. You know, to forgive, I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean, it's definitely a delicate peace treaty. But, yeah, I have to. You know, what are we, they walk around yelling at ghosts? Come back here. You know, we're not finished. Oh, can't. That's about the regrets, you know. So all I can do is cherish every second because, let's face it, you know, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. There it is. And I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing Tulsa King. And, I mean, it's a gift. And David Glasser, you know, like giving me this new breath of life and a whole new character.

57:48Imagine playing like, oh yeah, we're doing Rambo at 80. Oh my God, who's he fighting? He's fighting Mr. Arthritis. Like, what are you, you're kind of out of, you're out of opponents. You're fighting, oh yeah, brain disease. Okay.

58:06We'll end here for now. Sylvester Stallone, thank you so much. Ciao. On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So the next day, I spoke with Sylvester Stallone again, and he told me about his evolution from being an avatar for war in the Rambo movies into becoming personally anti-war. This podcast is supported by TNT's new limited series, High Value Target, The Hunt for Saddam. Inspired by the memoir Debriefing the President, this political thriller stars Joel Kinnaman as John Nixon, the first CIA officer to interrogate Saddam Hussein after his capture in 2003. John Nixon's relentless pursuit of truth during the invasion of Iraq comes to the screen for the first time in High Value Target, The Hunt for Saddam.

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59:39Hi. Hi. Back for more. What is wrong with you? I give you my word, though, you have the most in-depth interview I'm ever doing. So take that to the bank. Well, actually, I wanted to thank you so much for your candor yesterday. You have always been this person who has exuded invincibility. That's been your persona in your life, and that's been your persona in many of your roles. And so it's kind of astonishing to see you be so vulnerable. even though I put on this you know facade of being armor I have an armor like when you see Rocky and I'm writing for Adrian I really have a lot of empathy for people that just didn't get a break in life and I've always thought boy there's so many stories in these people but They're never going to get out.

1:00:42So that's why I think Rocky was such a success because everyone has that character that very few people get recognition for. They live in quiet suffering. They're never going to get any recognition. They're never like, I'm just here filling space. I'm just another seat on the bus. Hmm. You know, you've been in so many iconic films, franchises, Rocky, Rambo, The Expendables, now Taylor Sheridan's Tulsa King. You were nominated for another Oscar for Creed in 2016. What's your most underappreciated performance, do you think, that you're most proud of? Copland, for sure. Because I had been basically reduced to a lump of meat, like you're not that smart, you're an action guy.

1:01:34And I have always looked at action, when it's done well, as modern mythology. We don't have scribes running around and carving on stone tablets about the Hercules and so on and so forth. So I decided to delve in that by accident, because first blood I never imagined would transition me into more physical life because I wasn't born this physical specimen at all. And it just became so frustrating that things are slowing down. I was 50 years old. It was 1996. I thought I would like to go into the arena of the guys, the top athletes, the top actors, and see how we, you know, bounce off of one another.

1:02:22And it became that kind of challenge. There was definitely a dichotomy between the serious actor and that guy, meaning me. And I really welcomed it. I really did. I did the whole thing for free because the experiment was well worth it. You know, in our first conversation, you also talked about how no one would return your calls in Hollywood for a period of years in the late 1990s when things were pretty rough for you there. And this was a period when you had movies that didn't do well. Judge Dredd, Daylight, Get Carter, Driven, Detox, Avenging Angelo. And I came across an interview you gave to the New York Times in 1992 just as you were filming Cliffhanger.

1:03:05The article quotes one prominent Hollywood agent, and I'm going to quote here, who said, I think he's a diminishing asset. With every film he does, he goes down a little further. He's the new Burt Reynolds. And Cliffhanger then went on to do really well. Yeah. And it seems like there were these number of moments in your life when Hollywood was trying to write you off and you kept having these comebacks. I mean, how did you deal with this thing of having to keep proving yourself to this industry? Actually, I took it as somewhat invigorating because now I had a purpose. It's one thing to sit there and be, I guess, slowly, you know, your image is diminishing right before you.

1:03:53You're evaporating. But for some reason, I just said, this is a call to arms. And what am I going to go back to? I'm going to write another Rocky at 60 years old. And it was just the most ridiculous, like 60-year-old boxer, like 120-year-old can-can dancer. It just doesn't work, you know, it doesn't work. But I was able to get out the portion of what people go through as they're going into their later years, which is grief, the sense of loss. It had nothing to do with boxing anymore. And I just felt like, God, this is the perfect opportunity now. And, of course, it was rejected everywhere. I mean, I had studio heads actually say, Rocky's done and so are you, Sly.

1:04:45You're done. Just go off fishing. Okay. I get it. And I go through rewrites after rewrites. But I've always had this sense that you have to go down swinging. How do you explain this period of not so great films? I mean, did you know the films were bad at the time? Was it a quality control issue? Yeah, it really was. I mean, I didn't apply myself to the actual quality and who were the components. So even though each project had a great ability to be successful, I don't think I really focused on the fine strokes, which is what art is made about. In other words, the right director, the right this, the right co-star, the right advertising, the right theme song.

1:05:28These are things that I used to really apply myself to. And I suppose I just got lazy and started this whirlpool. It makes me wonder, I mean, what it does to the soul of an artistic person to make movies that aren't good. Oh, boy.

1:05:50It's a death in the family because it's not as though you didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today. It's all over the world. And there is a part of human nature that revels in that. You know what I mean? And again, I don't take it personally. I think that quite often human nature says, okay, he's had enough time. Let's bring on the new generation. Okay, move over, Slice. Stop hogging the screen. So I get it. So when you reach a certain age in this business, it becomes a very, very, very competitive, delicate, and a tenuous career. It doesn't take much to, well, boom. So that's why I think it's a very neurotic business at times because the product is you.

1:06:44It isn't like, oh, you rejected my leather jacket. No, we don't like you. But I realize, I go, you know, here you go again. You have to do it for yourself. You have to, like, go out there and find the firewood and start the fire. No one is going to knock on the door and go, here, here's an Oscar-winning script. Love you. No. And so it really did. It helped me because, you know, when you finally hit bottom, you have two choices, you know. You can't go any lower and you just eventually stop breathing. And I've always said the artist dies twice. You know, the second death is the easiest one compared to the career death, which is, you know, you're being dismissed.

1:07:27but I said, and I, it just woke me up and I was so invigorated starting to write. So when I, the hardest and the proudest moment by far in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody wanted it. I was done. I, when I say done, I mean, agent fired me, managers fired, I was done. I go, okay, this is, this sounds very familiar. Let's start over again. Let's see if you can do it at 60. So it was a fantastic, you know, voyage into the unknown. It literally, I said, this sounds very familiar when you were 29 years old, same thing, like, this is it. You know, listening to you talk about this, can you articulate your relationship then to the character Rocky Balboa?

1:08:18Because that character has saved your career, launched your career. You are defined by it. In many ways, America is defined by it. Rocky is kind of like my imaginary male role model. It's my father. It's what I wish, you know, I could be. So when I created him, I put every component in there, this self-effacement, this kind of humbleness, the ability to also take loss. How he's very philosophical about life is very difficult. And so I adapted that, and it always came to the rescue because it just pours out of me. Really, it does. I mean, writing other things, especially if you're writing something like Rambo, which is very difficult because he's monosyllabic.

1:09:20His lack of expression. Rocky's is everything he's thinking comes out. You know, it's not about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit. Like all these things that most people would never talk about. So I found this to be like a therapeutic beyond anything I've ever, like you asked, you know, you go to therapy. That was my Sigmund Freud right there. I have another question about Rambo. You know, as we had discussed, the first movie was quite complicated. You know, this vet that was discarded by his country who had PTSD. And you told this incredible story about how the last scene comes about with the movie ending with him being arrested.

1:10:06But then the character over time turns into this avatar, right? This classic action movie hero, perhaps with a little less depth than the original character had. Absolutely right. That's my fault. That's my fault. This is where this kind of vainglorious pomposity that like, now if you're like that, wait till you see this. And I didn't really focus on the depth of what he was still going through while trying to save POWs. He's trying to save his own soul. We never got into that. It's just like bravado, bravado, bravado, bulletproof. And that's all me. That's all me. I mean, that was a problem. This is when you get really hung up on kind of like clandestine narcissism.

1:11:00It works its way in there. Then you realize, hell, this is a lot easier than showing your soul, flexing your muscles. See what I mean? And it was terrible. Kind of, you know, like a cartoon. It came to define also this projection of American power, you know, and I'm going to quote you to you in an interview in 1985 when you were talking about your view of war, your politics. You said if you have the power like the United States, if you're going to talk tall and carry a big stick, eventually you've got to use it or they'll think you're bluffing. Does Rambo represent a part of like your worldview at that point as well?

1:11:43It did. It did. And now I realize all war is futile. It's stupid. It's a mechanism to make tons of money for the War Department and manufacturers. And these kids are just going out there into a gristmill, being chopped up. And then when they come back with no arms, oh, sorry, you're on your own. I hate it. I hate it. And I'm bitterly opposed to it. But at one time, I was truly gung-ho, really gung-ho. And I don't know if I was just trying to go against the current. You know, in Hollywood, there's a certain dynamic, as you know. But again, I admit it was, I think it was just naivete, really. Because I read a lot, especially after First Blood.

1:12:38and I go, wow, this is brutal. This is horrible. There's no glory in war. None. None. When did you become anti-war? It's, look, if you're under attack, of course you have to defend yourself. But I don't want to get into politics now, but all wars basically destroy both sides. I mean, it really creates this horrible history. And, you know, a lot of people don't get over it. They just don't. Grudges are held and, you know, continents are—I mean, countries are destroyed and lines are redrawn. For what, though? I know you don't want to talk about politics. But I am interested in something you just said, which is this idea of Hollywood being liberal and you being seen as a political conservative.

1:13:38Did that put you at odds in what was perceived as a liberal industry or is that perception actually wrong? I mean, it is wrong because I totally understand why the perception is like indelible. When Rocky came out, I was so naive. I'd never even voted. I was like pushing 30 years old. I had zero. I didn't even know the difference between Democrat and Republican. I functioned in another universe. But when Rocky wrapped himself in a flag and that sort of thing, and every movie we were up against at that time in competition, it was very, very heavy, very political. I mean, just extremely erudite intellectual, and Rocky was not that.

1:14:27It was emotional. And I think that right away put me over here. And then when I did First Blood, again, I had no idea that there was such a chasm between the left and the right and me being jingoistic. He's a saber rattler. It was, again, naivete on my part. But yes, it caused a major rift. And I wish it wasn't like that because I really think a lot of these actors have great empathy, great heart. And they're really more for the working man kind of thing. They're just down in the trenches. And that's where I live, you know what I mean? But I'm not considered that. And sometimes, you know, you say things that you don't realize the long-range effects.

1:15:26So you're currently in Tulsa King, which is a Taylor Sheridan series. It's coming up on its fourth season. That's right. At this point in your career, what keeps bringing you back to the screen? I mean, this is no longer that you have anything left to prove. It's not about proving. Well, not proving, but this... No, but I know exactly what you mean. Like, what do you got to prove? It's like a racehorse. You just keep going until it falls down. It doesn't know how to walk. It knows how to run. And it's like, it's almost like breathing. You know what I mean? It's like I talked to Albert, you know, De Niro, these guys.

1:16:11This is the, you are that animal. You cease to exist. without this format. It's what gives you life. You said something in our first interview that really caught my ear. You said, quote, that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, which I took to mean sort of the end of, you know, your life. And I was wondering how you feel about death and how you feel about that there is less time in front of you than there is behind you. Yeah. in panic mode. Really? Well, because that's what I said before. I built a castle with thousands of stones made of regrets. And I'm trying to make up for it in my own petty way.

1:17:00And I don't know if there's enough time. And then I go, there is not enough time. What I have to do is just focus on the ones that really need me and the ones that I want to go on and have their own life and legacy. and I'm at the point now, you know, at 78, you're kind of like chow. It's where the insurance company goes, yeah, that's the average. So I'm two years on borrowed time and I'm making up for it as much as I can. You're never too old to be in love, never too old to dance with the great memories that you've had and not wallow in the worst swamp of all, which is the swamp of loneliness.

1:17:41that is truly premature burial. Well, thank you for the gift of all those characters. And thank you for your time. Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate it. Thank you, Louie. I appreciate it. Keep punching.

1:17:59That's Sylvester Stallone. And a note, we reached out to Devereux for comment after this interview. And a spokesperson replied that while they've not read the book, they respect Mr. Stallone's quote, write to tell his story his own way, take his account seriously, and are sorry for any trauma he remembers experiencing. His memoir, The Steps, will be published on September 29th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash at symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, Photography by Philip Montgomery The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orm, Paola Neudorf, Joe Bill Munoz, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemmel, Gavi Contreras, Kathleen O 'Brien, and Brooke Minters Our executive producer is Alison Benedict Next week, David interviews Chris Rock I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from The New York Times