2025 on The Interview

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm Frahana Haider, producer on The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. Since the interview launched in March 2025, we've heard from world leaders to cultural icons, grassroots campaigners to business titans and sporting legends.

2:06As we approach the end of the year, we're bringing you a selection of the most compelling conversations we featured over the last nine months. For this episode, we hear from President Trump of America, British Royal Prince Harry and Malala Yousafzai, the education and human rights campaigner. In July, the BBC's North America correspondent, Gary O'Donoghue, spoke to the US president in a wide-ranging telephone conversation from the Oval Office that very nearly didn't happen. It eventually took place hours after he announced plans to send weapons to Ukraine and warned of severe tariffs on Russia if no ceasefire could be reached.

2:49It also marks a year on from the assassination attempt on the president's life, as witnessed by Gary O'Donoghue. Being able to have such a broad conversation, let alone one so frank with an incumbent world leader, is quite rare. Going about getting it, though, was much like any other interview. As a journalist, you do your best to work your sources, explore the best arguments to make your case and, most of all, be persistent. Having been at that infamous rally in Pennsylvania last year, at which Donald Trump nearly lost his life to an assassin's bullet, I wanted to speak to him a year on about how it had changed him, because it had certainly changed me.

3:32For a number of days, I was hopeful that a telephone interview would take place. At one point, I was told he would call me shortly from Air Force One. But that call didn't come through. Something else had come up, as it tends to do if you're the President of the United States. To be honest, come Monday evening, I thought it wasn't going to happen. At home, having a nap, I was woken by a call and scrambled when I was told the President was on the line, ready to speak to me. I accidentally hung up in my hurry. But fortunately, the White House was good enough to ring me back, and so it happened. It was like dead silence and everything.

4:11We had 55 ,000 people. And it was dead silence. And so, you know, I assumed that they expected the worst. And so I had to let them know I was okay, which is what I did. That's why I tried to get up as quick as possible. And I didn't want to be taken out by a stretcher. They had a stretcher ready to go. I said, no, thank you. I actually had a big argument with them. They wanted me on a stretcher. And I said, nope, I'm not doing that. So we had to let them know we were okay. you know for the country it's my obligation right did it change you what happened well i like to think about it as little as possible to be honest i don't like to think about it who changed me you know because could have changed a lot of people and i just don't do you understand what i'm saying i don't want to think about it it's like i get it the power of positive thinking or the power positive non-thinking i don't like dwelling on it because if i did it would be you know might be life-changing i i don't want it to have to be that it was um a crazy moment and it was uh something that has happened and ended and i you know i went on to win the presidency i don't know if that had anything to do with it to be honest but but i went on to win the presidency we're having a great presidency you've had an extraordinary year yeah and you've been on a roll very much recently one thing i was keen to ask you is these world leaders they do treat you differently to the way they treated you first time around yeah why do you think that is well i think they think it's maybe not all luck you know it's like they think there's a lot of talent involved when you do it twice it's a big difference i also think that you know over the years they've gotten to know me this is not an easy crowd to break into you understand these are smart people heading up very very successful generally countries you know they're all germany and france spain and you know big countries and you know i've gotten to know them over pretty years and i think they've come to respect me and my decision making how do you feel though when they're kind of obviously sometimes they're very obvious in their flattery sometimes over obvious in their flattery yeah well i think they're just trying to be nice you mentioned that russia was one of the things that was still problematic you've said you were four times close to a deal with putin yeah i've done a deal four times are you are you done with him i mean i know that sounds a simplistic thing but i'm disappointed in him but i'm not done with him but i'm disappointed in him how do you get him to we had a deal done four times and then you go home and you see he just attacked a nursing home yes something in kiev i said what the hell was that all about how do you get him to stop the bloodshed because i know you've said repeatedly the bloodshed is the thing We're working at Garriage.

7:19So far, I'm very disappointed. We'll have a great conversation. I'll say that's good. I think we're close to getting it done. And then he'll knock down a building in Kiev. Do you trust him? I trust almost nobody, to be honest with you. So how do you deal with someone you can't trust? Well, it's not a question of that. It's like I'm disappointed that this hasn't been done. I'm protecting Russian and Ukrainian soldiers and a lot of people from Ukraine. The deal we made last week is amazing. The, you know, the 5%. Nobody heard that was possible. And it amounts to over a trillion dollars a year. So they'll be able to buy all the equipment they want.

8:03Can I ask you a little bit about your domestic agenda? You were very clear about your priorities during the campaign. I followed you around. And there's no one who could argue you didn't tell people what you wanted to do. Are you feeling any frustration about being able to achieve your goals in terms of immigration? Clearly, you know, there are not people coming across the border. But in terms of deportations, the speed, the mechanisms, perhaps sweeping people up who you wouldn't want to see deported, is the mechanism working for you? No, I think we've done a great job. I mean, number one is the people pouring in.

8:40And as you know, last month it was zero, which is pretty amazing. But no, I think that I've much more than fulfilled the promises that I've made. I think I've fulfilled more promises than I've made, actually. How many deportations in this second term of yours would mark success for you? Well, we have a lot of them. We have all of the countries that are stopped from going to war, maybe first and foremost. We have the big, beautiful bill, which is the largest bill of its kind ever approved. We have the largest tax cuts in history, the largest regulation cuts in history. I've rebuilt the military.

9:20Now we've done a lot more than I said I was going to be doing. But in terms of deportations, deporting people who are in the country illegally, what would be a success number for you? Would it have to be in the millions to be a success? Well I want to get the criminals out immediately and that's what we're doing and we're winning a lot of court cases which allow us to do that. In terms of the numbers over the four years would it have to be... Well I don't put a number on but I want to get the criminals out quickly and we're doing that as you know we're bringing them to El Salvador and lots of other places.

9:55So may I ask you looking back what would be the key for your legacy for you? What do you think would define your legacy? Saving America. I think America is now a great country and it was a dead country one year ago. US President Donald Trump. Born into one of the world's most famous families, British royal and son of the king, Prince Harry, spent his adolescence in the limelight. The world watched as he grieved the death of his mother, Princess Diana. In May of this year, he lost a court battle to reverse the downgrading of security protection for him and his family after they moved to America and he had stepped down from royal duties.

10:38He had claimed the threats he faced were not properly considered, but judges rejected this. Shortly after the ruling, he spoke to BBC correspondent Neditofik from his adopted home in California. I'm speaking to Prince Harry after he loses a court of appeal challenge over his security arrangements in the UK. This has been a complex case, another piece in the royal drama of a divided family. Buckingham Palace said, All issues have been examined repeatedly and meticulously by the courts, with the same conclusion reached on each occasion. I found Prince Harry warm and easy to chat with. The strain of these last few years, clearly made worse by this legal defeat, was evident on his facial expressions.

11:21Speaking from a beautiful location near his California home, he was eager to share his perspective despite the inevitable scrutiny that follows him. I can't see a world in which I would be bringing my wife and children back to the UK at this point. The things that they're going to miss is, well, everything. You know, I love my country. I always have done, despite what some people in that country have done. So, you know, I miss the UK. Of course I do. And I think that it's really quite sad that I won't be able to show my children my homeland. Do you think your relationship has changed with the UK?

11:59Do you feel let down by your country? That's a big question. At this point, I'm feeling very let down. It's the minority of people, especially those that read the tabloids and the press themselves. The press themselves have incited so much hatred towards myself, my wife, and even our children. That's hard to forgive.

12:24You know, there are decisions that have been made. There are things that have happened since 2016, especially throughout my whole life, but let's just stick since 2016. There are things that have happened that I can now forgive. I have moved past that. I can forgive my family's involvement, my father, my brother, and my stepmother, I can forgive. I can forgive the press to a large extent as well for so many things that have happened. What I'm struggling to forgive and what I will probably always struggle to forgive is that a decision that was made in 2020 that affects my every single day and that is knowingly putting me and my family in harm's way.

13:06Everybody knew that they were putting us at risk in 2020. And they hoped that me knowing that risk would force us to come back. But then when you realize that that didn't work, do you not want to keep us safe? Whether you're the government, whether you're the royal household, whether you're my dad, my family, despite all of our differences, do you not want to just ensure our safety. How are you feeling about this decision? Because clearly you have two children, Archie, Lilibet. They're not able to see their grandfather, their uncle, their cousins in a way that you feel is safe for them. So what's your feelings kind of moving forward, is there any way that this could be resolved?

13:57Firstly, I'm devastated. Not so much as devastated with the loss that I am about the people behind the decision feeling as though this is okay. Is it a win for them? Is it a win that I don't get the protection that the threats and risks and impact say that I should, I would hope they wouldn't consider it a win. I'm sure there's some people out there, probably most likely the people that wish me harm, consider this a huge win. But, you know, I've... This is...

14:40There are... There have been so many disagreements, differences between me and some of my family. this current situation that has been now ongoing for five years with regard to human life and safety is the sticking point. It is the only thing that's left. Of course, some members of my family will never forgive me for writing a book. Of course, they will never forgive me for lots of things. But, you know, there is... I would love reconciliation with my family. I've always there's no point in continuing to fight anymore as I said life is precious I don't know how much longer my father has he he won't speak to me because of this security stuff but it would be nice to reconcile that reconciliation can't come without truth well I've now found out the truth a lot of it exists out there so it would be nice to have that reconciliation part now.

15:52If they don't want that, that's entirely up to them. And now that this court battle is over, do you feel you will be able to approach your father and speak about some of those issues? I mean, no, I don't think he would ever want to talk about it. I think he would just push it aside and the argument will continue to be this is a government decision. It may well be a government decision. But how did they reach that decision? I've never, ever been allowed to make my own representations, not in 2020 and not for the last five years. For me, and only me, there has to be a royal obligation in order to receive protection on UK soil.

16:39Prince Harry.

16:44If journalism is the first draft of history, What happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

17:44Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

17:54In October, the global education activist Malala Yousafzai spoke to BBC presenter Medina Mashanu about the public life that has defined her and her search for her own identity. In a deeply personal interview, Malala Yousafzai revealed the legacy of her teenage years as a spirited girl who took on the Taliban and nearly lost her life. Then the noble prize-winning advocate for girls everywhere to go to school. People think they know you, she says, but I did not know who I was. Here's BBC presenter Medina Mashanu. I'm speaking to global education activist Malala Yousafzai. She was in Nigeria with Malala Fund, her organisation, working to ensure an education for girls.

18:38Nigeria has the highest number of out-of-school children in the world. When Malala arrived at our Abuja Bureau, she was immediately warm and accommodating, far more approachable than the serious image many see on TV. She lit up when we talked about her as a person, sharing glimpses of her life that rarely make it into the public eye. When I asked her about how fun she seems on Instagram, she laughed and said she's even more fun in real life. It was a reminder that behind a global figure is someone genuinely human and deeply relatable. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me as this brave, courageous young activist.

19:21But I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. So, you know, my exposure to media, to public life has really sort of limited the way I could express myself. activism is my lifelong mission and that will continue to be a part of my life but there's always more to a person than just that and yeah you know it's like you know you you in the end are a human just like anybody else you want to make friends you want to feel loved you want you know you want to have that support around you so your story is one that is very touching one that almost everyone in the world knows, when you were shot at 15 by the Taliban, and that must have impacted your childhood.

20:07Would you say that subsequently fame also impacted your childhood? I think it was a bit of everything. At 15, when I was recovered from the attack, I started school in the UK in a completely new country. I actually really struggled to make friends. by the end of my school time, I just had made one friend. So when I was about to join university, I had one mission, and that was to make as many friends as I could, because friends also help you grow as a person. So I'm so lucky to say right now that I have made a lot of friends, and they have helped me in difficult moments, from handling essay crisis to just have moments of laughter to also being there with each other when we have gone through tough moments.

20:59But why did you struggle to make friends? Was it the fame? I think it's because people think that they know you. They have heard about you on TV. So they have this fixed image of you. And that image of mine is that of like this brave Malala who survived the Taliban's attack at age 15 in Pakistan. Of course, I was, you know, a normal girl. I was mischievous sometimes. I had a lot of friends. I loved to talk about anything. And what I wanted was that you can be an activist, but you could also be yourself. And this is something that I missed on when I was in the school days. But I had to, like, relearn and reconnect with all of that later on in my college time.

21:47You've recently written a new book, which is yet to be released. It's called Finding My Way. and that title just seems very personal. What does it mean to you? Yes, this is the most personal reflections I have ever shared before. I talk about my school years which were lonely. I talk about my college life where I decided to become more of a reckless student. I have become more of a sports person right now. I'm doing quite good at golf. I talk about friendships and love life and at the same time mental health because that is something that affected me many, many years later after the attack. This is, in a way, me reintroducing myself.

22:25You also mentioned many times that you go to therapy. How has therapy helped you? Actually, I started therapy seven, eight years later after the attack because when I survived the physical injuries, I thought, this is it. This is what recovery means. And if you heal from one bullet, you don't need a conversation about therapy and how do you feel. But many years later, I realized how the trauma, the flashbacks, everything just got triggered and they all came back. And it broke me down because if you don't address it on time, it can completely break you down when it comes to you all at once. So my perspective on mental health has completely changed now because in the beginning, I thought nobody could understand me.

23:15my situation is just so different. But I had a few sessions with a therapist and I realized, okay, like this, this is something I should have been having much, much earlier. And I thought the therapist could like maybe fix it in one session. I thought she would write some medication, but no, I think it's about conversation. It's about processing what you're going through and learning that, you know, this, this is now a part of you, but the effect of it on you gets smaller and smaller when you face it, when you talk about it. So yes, I like therapy is now part of like my journey. Everything you've been through when you were shot and the malala of today, do you think it's all worth it?

23:58This is a, you know, like a tough question to address because I usually would say that, you know, I wish I was in the old life. I wish, you know, I could have continued my life in Pakistan. But when I think about how things took a turn, and now that I'm able to lead a movement for girls' education, and we are able to work together with incredible partners, like here in Nigeria, when I look at these incredible organizations, like a dozen of them who are leading change for girls, then I'm like, you know, whatever the circumstances, this pathway is rewarding. And I do not want to look back. I do not want to change it for a second because of the change that today we can make for guns.

25:07You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Daniel Noboa, President of Ecuador, cycling champions Sir Bradley Wiggins, and Russian punk activist Maria Alyokhina. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:30If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.