Aisha Musa, former leader: Can Sudan rebuild?

0:00James Copnall:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:29James Copnall:CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Ever wonder why we make the choices we do and how to make smarter ones?

1:15James Copnall:Introducing Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join Wharton professor Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. Each episode covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings and why starting over can feel so hard. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

2:04James Copnall:Hello, I'm the BBC presenter James Copnell and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

2:22Aisha Musa:We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing.

2:27James Copnall:Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this episode, I speak to Aisha Moussa, one of the civilian figures who helped lead Sudan after the overthrow of Omar al-Bashir in 2019. after popular protests led to his fall Sudan's presidency was replaced by a sovereign council made up of military and civilian representatives Aisha Moussa was one of only two women appointed to the body an unprecedented position of influence for a woman in Sudan but hopes of democratic change collapsed first with a coup and then in April 2023 when a vicious power struggle between Sudan's army and the paramilitary rapid support forces plunged the country into civil war.

3:19James Copnall:The conflict has led to famine, accusations of genocide and the deaths of more than 150 ,000 people. Aisha Musa once worked alongside the generals now leading that war. Never.

3:33Aisha Musa:I did suspect that something is going to happen in them. I did not see that they could be that blasphemous, that they could damage their country to this extent. I knew them as colleagues sitting around the table. We laughed with each other. We ate together. We traveled on the same planes. We attended the same meetings. We discussed and we shouted at each other. And they were very respectful to me. And I felt highly respected. I felt like I was actually the chairman of that. If Asha doesn't speak, the meeting is not finished. So I was never afraid of them as a threat to life or to the lives of people.

4:20James Copnall:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Aisha Moussa.

4:26Aisha Musa:I feel numb. Actually, still, it feels unreal to me, having been in Sudan all my life. it looks like a nightmare because those Sudan during the last three decades has not been in its best yet we have been through quite a lot of difficulties and insecurities but I have never imagined that it will turn into a war field kind of and it keeps we thought at first that it is just days or months or even a year but it went on and it kept escalating now. It has been moving during these three years but when it started as a war for us in Korto we saw that it is definitely going to stop. It is not going to go that far but it didn't stop.

5:22Aisha Musa:It went on and on and we were faced with the fact that even our homes are no longer habitable and people started enjoying Even at that stage, I was still feeling not safe, but I felt that at my age, where would I go? And I didn't have any alternative, but that house that I had spent all my life trying to build after I lost my husband. And to leave it was something I had never thought about. But I had to. I had to. And it's a long story. We left the house at first. I started housing people and trying to convince them and collecting water for those who needed it and bringing things for people. And then I finished.

6:15Aisha Musa:I used up all that I have. And I still feel, far as I am, I feel so insecure. I left behind a library that as a family we spent all our life trying to build it. And I built the best I could to house about 7 ,000 books that we collected. And now one of my sons went back to have a look since we left. He went on the last month. And he said he found a good number. But it was all piled and the shelves broken. And apparently they were looking for something. I don't know what for. The house is looted. Everything had been taken away. He said, you wouldn't even find a spoon for your best cup of tea if you can manage to have a cup of tea.

7:08Aisha Musa:Does it feel then... I feel devastated. I feel, you know, this feeling of loss. I do not feel the loss of material things, but the loss of my life. And all my papers, everything, our pictures, everything, everything. And most of the things that belonged to my father were in that house. my mother gave them to me before she died.

7:32James Copnall:And that story of loss of your possessions, of your home, is one replicated for millions of Sudanese, is it not? Almost everybody's been affected by this war.

7:43Aisha Musa:Yes, everybody. Everybody. And this is actually, this is the condolence that made it survive. And no matter how much you lost, there's someone who has lost more and maybe you will have the means to build some sort of life after that. But some people do not have means. They do not have places to go back to. Some houses are totally ruined. Our house is not destroyed. And the walls are there. The rooms are there. But everything, kitchens, bathrooms, everything is taken. Even the trees. You know, they cut the trees. You have lemon trees and palm trees and everything. They are all cut from... I don't know why this happened.

8:33Aisha Musa:This makes you think, why did this war take place? Is it really a fight between two people?

8:40James Copnall:Between two groups? Look, I wanted to ask you about that, because you were on the Sovereign Council, the body that replaced President Omar al-Bashir as a civilian. You had to deal with those two men, the generals you were talking about, Abdel Fattah al-Bahan from the Sudanese Armed Forces, and Mohamed Hamdan Dagaloun, and Ashameti from the RSF, the Rapid Support Forces. Did you suspect at the time that they might take your country to the devastating war we see now?

9:08Aisha Musa:Never. I did suspect that something is going to happen, but it never leads to this. I did not see this. I don't know even what to call it. And I did not see that in them. I did not see that they could be that blasphemous, that they could damage their country to this extent. So this is why I'm saying whether it is a war between two men or two groups even that they represent or something deeper than that and more than that. I knew them as colleagues sitting around the table. We laughed with each other. We ate together. We traveled on the same planes. We attended the same meetings. We discussed and we shouted at each other and they were very respectful to me.

9:53Aisha Musa:They respected me as one of the eldest people in the group and the only, the second, we were two, two women. The first two women in such a post in Sudan. And I felt highly respected. I felt like I was actually the chairman of that. And Murhan does say sometimes, if Asha doesn't speak, the meeting is not finished. She has to say something. I was never afraid of them as a threat to life or to the lives of people. What I was wondering then is you talk of, is it just these two generals, the forces they represent, or something broader?

10:36James Copnall:By that, do you mean, is it something within Sudanese society or are you making a reference to external countries, other countries, foreign countries, supporting both sides?

10:49Aisha Musa:I think that the Sudanese community environment is a source of encouraging this kind of thing to happen. But the real thing is that, as I said in my resignation note, that there is something, some strong hand behind the whole thing that's happening. When I said that, I did not go as far as other countries. I was just thinking of al-Bashir and the Muslim brothers who were suspected by everybody that they were behind everything. And this thing, all the rulers of the past who were trying to come back through these two. But then the thing where it has gone so far and so deep and it has used equipment and facilities and money and things that I know as a member of the government at one time that we don't have it in Sudan, that there is some strong hand behind them from other countries.

11:57Aisha Musa:and now of course it is obvious that someone is igniting this war by supplying both parties with weapons that we did not have any means of having them at that time before this war. And things are renewing, new things are coming and up-to-date things, equipment of war, things that I don't even know their names are coming to the scene.

12:22James Copnall:And that massively complicates the search for a solution for peace, does it not? Because you don't just have to deal with Sudanese armed groups, you have to deal with foreign backers as well. Exactly.

12:36Aisha Musa:This is why I was one of the people who thought that we should never turn away a helping hand. If any country suggests that they want to help or they want to interfere or something, we listen to them and we go to them. But then now it is obvious that it is a war that is meant to break us to pieces. And that the only solution will be that we use our own hands and our own authorities, if we have any left, and our own abilities and what we have known already to fight back and to stop this war and to govern this country. I think that it is something that has got to be done by the same hands, if they are the same hands that killed, actually.

13:29Aisha Musa:These hands have killed. Someone used them, our hands. Sudanese people. I mean, the people who attacked me in my house are young Sudanese men, whom I would call my son. I would say, this is my son. They broke into my house and I was sitting right there in front of them. I could have opened the door if they knock. Before I could walk, take my stick and walk to the door, they broke into the house. and when I said why they said we thought that maybe there are soldiers here because we have been attacked by them and we are looking for anyone in the military forces because before them another group also came to the house and they hit their way, broke into the house I was also sitting I always, after saying the Fajr prayer I sit outside I have a small bed and I sit outside next to the doorway to the street.

14:30Aisha Musa:It was a small street. It is a small street outside the house. So they knocked. And before I could get up, they also used the back of their guns and they opened the door and walked in. They said they just want a drink of water and their shoes need change. They want some shoes. My son came downstairs and I asked him. He was furious. I said, no, no, bring them some shoes if you have. He brought them a pair of shoes. One of them actually sat next to me and he was speaking to me and I was trying to convince him, like, I'm speaking to you now. Why are you doing this? Why don't you speak to us and say what you want, really?

15:13Aisha Musa:Why do you break into other people's houses? Why do you do this and that?

15:18James Copnall:Is there any way that the civilians, the young protesters, the voices of experience like you will be able to convince the military men to lay down their weapons, to take Sudan back to a more peaceful future?

15:34Aisha Musa:These young men that I have seen a sample of them three times in my own house and spoke to them, are just tools. They are machines. They are used. They are filled up with something and they are you.

15:53James Copnall:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service with me, James Copnall.

16:22James Copnall:Well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. The network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. She was the sister who went unnoticed.

17:09James Copnall:A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama, Mary, you will flourish, based on the best-selling novel The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com.

17:38James Copnall:I've interviewed Aisha Moussa before, including in the Sudanese capital Khatoum, when she was a member of the Sovereign Council. As always, her humanity shone through. She asked after my mother who'd been unwell and shared stories of her family which has been forced into exile in several parts of the world. Aisha herself is in Riyadh. I was struck by how profoundly she has been affected by the war in Sudan both personally and because of how it has weighed so heavily on her fellow citizens. Okay let's return to my conversation with Aisha Musa. And Aisha, you are living in exile now. I wonder your thoughts on the way people around the world are reacting to this wave of Sudanese people who have been forced from their homes.

18:27James Copnall:I know you wanted to talk, for example, about young Sudanese students in the UK and the difficulties they are having in getting visas.

18:35Aisha Musa:Over the years, they have these strong ties with the British government. We call it Great Britain all the time. And regardless of what we think of the ties, the old ties with Britain, we respect this country and we respect the fact that all our elites and people who had their first high education went to Britain and they come back as people who really done quite a lot to the country. and all the first generations were educated in Britain actually. Up to our level, we all went to Britain for education and we came back and we were very happy with what we have achieved. So you can imagine what kind of shock we all had when we read about the Home Secretary, UK Home Secretary, Shahbani Mahmoud, was very hard on us.

19:29Aisha Musa:It was really hard on us to hear that this announcement about emergency break on study visas for students from Sudan and other four countries, I think. And at the time, she was afraid. She says that all these are, in fact, they will turn into asylum seekers. even if they will turn into asylum seekers at the time when Sudan is passing through this war which has been described as the most vicious war and humanitarian status that Sudan has gone through not just Sudan, that the whole world has faced recently isn't it the wrong time to announce such a thing? this is not what we would expect from Great Britain

20:27James Copnall:Asha, we started this conversation talking about the devastation of three years of conflict. Do you see a way in which it comes to an end soon? Do you think that peace is possible in the short term?

20:41Aisha Musa:Actually, a lot of things have got to be done if it is to stop. I mean, people speak about stopping the war. As I said, nobody from outside. I mean, there are these negotiations that the group of four and of five and all that, that never include women, let alone any other groups or youth. Okay, they do not even have the young people who are the source of this revolution that has resulted in this catastrophe. So how are you going to negotiate what to do to someone without asking them what they think? I mean, women have never been invited to such negotiations. And the women's groups also are totally neglected and left out of all these invitations to them.

21:37Aisha Musa:We have got a whole roadmap of what we should do. And it kind of culminates into, number one, the war has got to stop somehow. Of course, if it doesn't stop, then we have to have a long-term ceasefire. And civilians have got to get together in one round table, round that includes everything. we have a list of all the people that should be invited, not people in names, but in geographical places and who represent, as I was saying, professionals and ordinary people, the stakeholders, the real stakeholders, the young people, the women, the disabled, everybody in the country. Why? Because we want these people to be the first start of forming something like the People's Council or a parliament, a parliament.

22:37Aisha Musa:This parliament's work should have two jobs. Job number one is to eliminate the army, the armed forces from the civil forces. The army should go to where they belong and they should do the jobs that they are created to do and the civilians should take care of themselves and should start preparing for public elections and representation of all kinds of people. Now this is what it is all about, is that everyone is saying that only those are working, but we are not invited, we are not included. So we want to include everybody in this fight. or stopping the war, that if we want this war to stop and this country to be rebuilt, we have to go back.