Alexander Stubb, President of Finland: We live in a world of disorder

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1:16Hello, I'm Matt Chorley, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Finland's President Alexander Stoob while he was on a visit to London. He believes the world is at a point of transition with political priorities and allegiances shifting, a process of change that started with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and has continued apace under the second Trump administration.

2:06We are currently living, he tells me, in a world of disorder. Alexander Stoop is also believed to have the ear of the US leader. They share a love of gulf. But does he agree that NATO should be doing more to support America in its ongoing war with Iran? It's not Article 3, Article 4 or Article 5 of NATO, because that for us is about protecting ourselves in a situation. So what I've always said that NATO is a defense alliance, it's a military alliance. It's not an alliance that attacks. That's the basic idea. When NATO 2.0 was sort of founded after the end of the Cold War, we went a lot into crisis management or peacekeeping, right?

2:46We did that in Kosovo. We did it in Afghanistan. And then there was always a UN mandate to do that. So that's fine. But this is not NATO per definition. This is very much the US and Israel. Welcome to the interview from the World Service with Alexander Stoub. We meet at a moment where it feels like the world order is being redrawn. How do you see the world falling into different groups, different blocks right now? Well, we are right now in a transition. So it's a little bit from a Western perspective, the 1918, 1945 or 1989 moment when the order is changing. And we don't know where it's going to settle.

3:26So after World War I, the League of Nations wasn't strong enough. We end up in World War II. After World War II, the United Nations is strong enough to keep world peace for 40 years or four decades. And then after the Cold War, we kind of get intellectually lazy. and we think that everyone wants to be like us, all 200 nation states of the world, history is over, let's do liberal democracy, social market economy and globalisation. And then something started happening early on and for me the changing date was the war in Ukraine on February 2022 and then probably the new American administration. So we don't know where the world is going to land.

4:03So we live a little bit in a world of disorder right now, unfortunately. One of the blocks you talk about is the global west of liberal democracies led by America. But right now we find America at odds with lots of the liberal democracies you're talking about. Yeah, probably we have to be realistic. And don't get me wrong, I'm pro-American and an avid transatlanticist. But the US has a very different foreign policy right now. It's quite ideological. It's quite interest driven. It acts as a hegemon. So in that sense, it's quite different from what I envisage. It was one of the scenarios, but nevertheless.

4:36Let these things move quickly. Let's focus on some of what President Trump has been saying, literally, in the last few hours and last few days. In the wake of his decision to launch an attack on Iran, he's been very critical of allies who didn't join him and who haven't, in his view anyway, been supportive enough. And now he's saying it would be very bad for the future of NATO if allies don't work with him to help secure the Strait of Hormuz. What's your take on that? Should NATO allies, including Finland, join the US? The U.S., when it was more or less a benign hegemon, it used to consult allies and international institutions before something happened.

5:15This was the case in Kosovo. This was the case in Libya. This was the case in Iraq. And this was the case in Afghanistan. So it sort of went with the allies. This was a surprise attack. So none of us knew about it. And that's why probably there's been reluctance and a little bit of a pushback. Then for a country like Finland, you know, we are up there in the northeastern corner of Europe. So we have our own backyard to take care of, 1 ,340 kilometres of border with Russia. So that's the part that we do for the alliance. We wouldn't have much to give. You know, we don't have basis, these kinds of things to give.

5:51What I think I'd like to see now is more peace mediation. You know, we need to find a way out, negotiation. So that's what I'd probably be flagging for right now. But it feels like President Trump is turning this into a sort of virility test of NATO allies. As you said today, just this afternoon, talking about NATO again, he says, I know we'll protect them. He was on say, if we ever needed help, they won't be there for us. They will be. You have to remember that the Arctic, especially northern Finland, northern Sweden and northern Norway, is the key for protecting the United States. Why? Because most of Russia's nuclear weapons are up there in Murmansk and the Kuala Peninsula.

6:32So, you know, if push comes to shove, of course we are part of Article 5, collective defence, one for all, all for one. Out of the question that we wouldn't support the US. And I think that's actually it's very much in the interest of the US as well to have allies and have NATO, because the biggest security threat that we have in Europe, unfortunately, is Russia. And that's what we're trying to contain inside the alliance. German Chancellor Mertz has said that this is not a matter for NATO. It's not Article 3, Article 4 or Article 5 of NATO, because that for us is about protecting ourselves in a situation.

7:11So what I've always said that NATO is a defence alliance, it's a military alliance, it's not an alliance that attacks. That's the basic idea. When NATO 2.0 was sort of founded after the end of the Cold War, we went a lot into crisis management or peacekeeping, right? We did that in Kosovo. We did it in Afghanistan. And then there was always a UN mandate to do that. So that's fine. But this is not, you know, NATO per definition. This is very much the US and Israel. It's interesting, actually, it's a point that was made by General Sir Nick Carter, a former chief of the defence staff here in the UK.

7:46Talked to the BBC, said that NATO is a defensive alliance. He said it wasn't designed for one of the allies to go on a war of choice and then oblige everyone else to follow. Is it that Donald Trump doesn't understand what NATO is? No, I think what the President of the United States wants right now is support in a complicated situation. I don't think many expected Iran to counterattack the Gulf states, which are, of course, close allies of the United States. But right now, I feel that Iran is obviously fighting for its existence. That's why it's trying to A, maximise the destruction in the region and B, maximise the destruction for the global economy and the oil price.

8:29And this puts, I think, everyone involved in a difficult situation. That's why I think the best thing to do right now, instead of escalating, is to de-escalate and then that would perhaps open the Hornets Straits, which are what President Trump is looking for. You're often described as a Trump whisperer. You seem to be closer to him than lots of leaders. How often do you speak to him? Is he on the phone? Is he texting, WhatsAppping, voice noting? I think my job as president of Finland is to have good relations with leaders around the world. And of course, to have a relationship with the most powerful leader in the world is useful.

9:06Having said that, I don't want to inflate my role at all as any kind of a whisperer. If I can throw out one idea on the war of Ukraine out of 10 that he might hook on to, I'll be very happy. But he makes very much his own decisions. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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10:53Just the good stuff your body craves. And for the times you feel like switching it up, you've got seven flavors to choose from, all with the highest quality ingredients. Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to kachava.com and use code FITNESS. New customers get 15 % off their first order. That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com code FITNESS. Alexander Stubb, as president of Finland, is one of those world leaders who is interesting because he's managed to secure the thing that so many other world leaders have tried and failed, and that's a rapport with President Donald Trump. Keir Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, of course, is another one.

11:36Alexander Stoob bonded with Donald Trump on the golf course, but I was interested to know how far that relationship went, how they communicate, and his ability to have difficult conversations without cutting off that relationship altogether. So, OK, let's return to my conversation with Alexander Stoob. You play golf together, though, don't you? We did, yes. And how did you beat him? Were you allowed to beat him? No, we played on the same team. Oh, OK. Yeah. One of the few players that shoots under his own age. Quite impressive. So you think he's a good player? I do. I do. I wondered, did you see any evidence of this idea that people have to let him win?

12:15Were you on the winning team when you played with him? No, we were on the winning team, but we had a lot of fun. I remember that, I mean, for those of you who play golf, I mean, I used to play seriously, but I kind of quit cold turkey after college golf 35 years ago. and you see the personality of a human being kind of on the first hole. You see how they react to bad shots and good shots. We had a very pleasant round. And how does Donald Trump react to a bad shot? Very calm. Much calmer than I am. What about a few months ago, I went to the Finnish embassy here in London to experience sauna diplomacy, the sauna that you have in the embassy.

12:53Is that something that you've tried out with Donald Trump? Not with Donald Trump, but I've had a foreign policy sauna. We have this feature Kultaranta Talks at my summer residence, and I invite people to have a chat. But yeah, sauna is, I mean, it's the only international word that comes out of the Finnish language. So very, very, very proud of it. You know, we have 2.2 million saunas in Finland for 5.6 million people. That's quite a lot. Would you invite Donald Trump to join you in one of them? I can invite anyone to a sauna because it's a very soothing place. I believe in taking a sauna and then an ice bath.

13:27It kind of clears the mind. Maybe that's what he needs, you know, cool heads all around. You never know. Do you have difficult conversations with President Trump? I would say I do, yeah. I think in any relationship, obviously we're very different in public than we are in private as human beings, right? I mean, you as a journalist behave at home differently than you do in front of the camera, right? That is true. And then also you build a relationship of trust. And once you reach a certain point of trust, then you can be a little bit tougher on things that you disagree. But you kind of have to pick your battles.

13:59I think that's the key. But I feel that I've been able to be quite frank with the president, among others. Earlier this year, Trump said that NATO sent some troops but stayed a little back, a little off the front lines in Afghanistan. Of course, two Finnish soldiers were among those who were killed in Afghanistan. Was that one of the difficult conversations you had to have? I think that conversation has been more difficult with the Danes, who had over 40 soldiers dying. Denmark has been a very close ally of the United States over the years. And of course, many of us, we weren't even NATO members, but we had troops in Afghanistan for many years in rotation.

14:36Of course, it's good training, but they were certainly in Mare al-Sharif. I visited the place myself very much in the front lines. I would not have had the courage myself to be there for too long, but our soldiers did. And is that something you spoke to President Trump about? We speak about alliance, but I think my value added is to tell the strength of the Finnish military for the alliance. And, you know, I know that even the viewers of BBC don't always look at the intricacies of the Finnish military, but we still have conscription. So obligatory military service for men and men and then voluntary for women.

15:09We have over one million men and women who've been trained in the military service. We have over 60 F-18s. We just bought 64 F-35s. We have long-range missiles, air, land and sea. We have the biggest artillery together in Europe, together with Poland. And as I always say, we don't have them because we're worried about Sweden. It's because you're worried about Russia and the scale of the border you're talking about. Is that, as president of Finland, what keeps you up at night? No, I think we're quite actually cool, calm and collected when it comes to it because our whole defense posture has been created in a post-World War II world.

15:48And then in the post-Cold War period, we kept our military up. So we have the capabilities. And, you know, I look at our overall comprehensive security. As president, I'm the one who probably has most information about our security of supply, our capacity in cyber, our capacity in space, land, air and sea, our border capacity. And I sleep my nights, actually, quite calmly. And we've always had a good relationship with Russia as well. You know, we are trustworthy. So in that sense, even if we join NATO, I don't think Russia sees us as a target. It's not something, I mean, clearly other countries who share borders with Russia aren't concerned about, a Russian invasion bluntly.

16:29Is that something that concerns you and Finland? No, I think, no, no, we don't. I mean, we don't see an imminent security threat from Russia, but we do see a long-term threat, depending, of course, on how the war in Ukraine ends. But I think, having spoken to many colleagues over the years, I think the bigger worries are not so much of NATO states, because Article 5 is solid. But there are countries who are bordering Russia, say, in Central Asia, who are worried about Russian expansion and imperialism. But what I keep on stressing is that once we're able to settle the war of aggression in Ukraine, we need to bring down the temperature and see how we kind of get to discuss again.

17:10Because right now we basically don't have diplomatic or political relations with Russia. You talk about the ongoing investment in the Finnish military and both in terms of equipment, but also people and conscription and so on. Not every country has done that, including the UK, but others too. cashed in the peace dividend after the end of the Cold War, dialled down on defence spending, moved away from having conscription. Do you think that was a mistake? The UK military obviously has its own strength, its capability and intelligence, its nuclear weapons. Its defence posture is different because you're an island, whereas our defence posture is basically the landline with Russia.

17:50But what I've seen now is that a lot of countries are increasing their defence expenditure and capabilities. And part of it is obviously President Trump putting pressure on NATO allies, but part of his reality and understanding that the world is a much colder place than what it was after the Cold War. One of the things we've seen in recent days, America lifting some oil sanctions on Russia, which will ultimately put money into Moscow's coffers, which will end up on the battlefields in Ukraine. Yeah, that's again, one of the spillover effects of the war in Iran is that the oil price goes up. And that, of course, means an oil price going up in the U.S.

18:29as well. Therefore, a lifting of sanctions with which I disagree. We actually should put more pressure on the Russian economy. And now, of course, a focus more on Iran than on Ukraine. So that's why we keep on working with our American friends and, of course, with our Ukrainians to try to bring things back on track. Because as a matter of fact, when it comes to the battlefield, Ukraine is doing much better than it has been in these past four years. It's actually acquiring back more territory than Russia is able to gain. And if you look at the damage on the battlefield in the past three months, it's over 90 ,000 Russian soldiers dead.

19:08They're not even able to recruit. But now they're able to feed their war machine because of the increase in oil price. And I am worried about that. But that's as a direct result of a decision taken by the American president, who, if we're picking sides, is supposed to be on the side of Ukraine and not Russia. I think the United States has set out publicly as well as they see themselves very much as mediators between Russia and Ukraine. And of course, for me as a Finn and as a European who has gone through the same predicament that Ukraine is going through right now, we as a nation in the winter war and the war of continuation when the Soviet Union attacked us, we have very much picked our side, and that is to try to help Ukraine to defend itself.

19:53And of course, it is a little bit of a miracle that we are where we are in the sense that, you know, President Putin and Russia has failed in all of its strategic aims. It tried to make Ukraine Russian. It's going to become European. It tried to prevent NATO from enlarging. It doubled its border with Finland coming in and Sweden. And it tried to keep European defence expenditure and capabilities down. And we're up to 5 % soon. So in that sense, I think, you know, Ukraine's fight is our fight. And yet against that backdrop, the US president has given a shot in the arm to the Russian economy, which will end up being used to fund its war in Ukraine.

20:32I mean, what's your message been to Donald Trump on that specifically? Well, you know, no, I haven't had a message on that specifically. But what I kept on saying is that as a matter of fact, the Russian economy before the oil price started to go up wasn't doing well. They had zero growth. They had zero reserves. They had interest rates at 16 percent inflation at double digits. They had a budget deficit, which went from 83 billion euros to potentially 130 billion this year. Now that's going to come down. And why do I stress this so much? Because Russia needs money for the war machinery to work.

21:11They need to pay the soldiers. They need to pay the families of the dead soldiers. And if we had been in a situation where they can't do that, perhaps that would have been an incentive for Russia to end the war. But the opposite is happening. Donald Trump has given them at this crucial moment as you paint it. The opposite is happening in these past two weeks. We've seen a shift. You know, the idea that the Russian economy is down this year is not looking likely right now, unfortunately. And that has changed the game. But on the battlefield, again, the Ukrainians are doing extremely well. But what does that tell us, I suppose, about President Trump's attitude towards Ukraine and to Russia?

21:49Many people, they'll look at that and think, well, Donald Trump is siding with the leader of Russia over Ukraine. I think the foreign policy of the current administration is basically based on two pillars that we see in the national security strategy from November 2025. One is MAGA, and that's very ideological. So there's this resentment of global institutions, of international rules, and also of the European Union, as a matter of fact. And in general, this international cooperation, the idea is that let's park that aside. And then the other strand on this national security strategy, which is obviously the strategy of the administration, is America first.

22:32And that has a pecking order in the strategy. Number one is the Western Hemisphere. Number two is the Indo-Pacific. And only number three is Europe. Number four is the Middle East, which is now changing, I guess. And then number five is Africa. And that's the reality that we have to live with, with the current administration. So I always say that, and again, as a pro-American, pro-transatlanticist, you know, live in a world or do your foreign policy in a world that exists, not a world that you wish would exist. You're here in London. Clearly, a lot of folks on Keir Starmer's relationship with Donald Trump.

23:06It had been, despite their political and, you know, personality differences, they had been getting on very well. Now in a situation where we've got the US president describing Kirsten was no Winston Churchill, criticising the UK for not becoming more involved early on. What's your advice to Kirsten on how to deal with that relationship? You have to understand that the relationship that many of us have with President Trump does oscillate. You have good days, you have bad days. So don't take everything so personally, I think is my message. I don't give any advice. There's clearly a lot of concern in the UK, as there is in Finland and across the world, really, about the impact on the cost of living, the immediate impact, rising oil prices, and the longer term cost of investing in defence, as you're talking about.

23:49People often ask, you know, when is the cost of living crisis going to end? When are we going to get through all this? Are those days over where we didn't have to worry about those things? Actually, life is going to be harder. Foreign policy or the economy is never an end state. It keeps on oscillating all the time. And right now, you know, we are in a worse place than we were, say, 10 years ago. There's no denying that. And we're seeing in this world of disorder an increase in conflicts. And these conflicts then have an impact on oil prices. They might have an inflation on interest rates and the rest of it.

24:22So we need to figure out when we have security pressure coming from the East and Russia and a transition from the West with the U.S. administration. How do we best work together so that we can get over this cost of living crisis? So to return to where we began and the idea of rebalancing the new world order, is it possible to get to that while you still have Donald Trump in the White House? I think it's possible to work towards that. And the example that I give... That sounds like a no. No, it's... I'm still... I'm a realistic optimist, right? So I try not to over-rationalize the past or history, but there was something called the San Francisco moment right after World War II.

25:03where they created the United Nations and nations came together and agreed on a certain set of rules and norms and charters. Why can't we do that again in a world where AI is predominant, technological revolution in general, where there are conflicts and where we're not even talking about the climate crisis? So let's get back to the drawing board and try to solve these things together rather than going our separate ways.