Ali Bahreini, Iran’s UN Ambassador: No surrender

0:00Ali Bahreini:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

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1:15Ali Bahreini:Hello, I'm Evan Davis, BBC presenter, and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. people shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I spoke to Ali Bahraini, Iran's ambassador to the United Nations. He's been conducting diplomacy for the Islamic Republic of Iran since 1999, under the hardline leadership of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

2:02Ali Bahreini:The supreme leader was killed on the first day of the war by the US and Israel, and his son, Moshtaba, has been appointed his successor. This interview was recorded before the death of the Iranian security chief, Ali Larajani. You're going to hear Iran's defence of negotiations over its nuclear capabilities, how it says the war is unfolding and why Iran believes striking its neighbours can be justified.

2:28Evan Davis:This is a message that we have given to our neighbouring countries that we don't fight against them. We don't have any war against those countries. We are friends. We belong to the same family. In fact, we appreciate the role they have played before the start of war to give contribution to the diplomatic process. But unfortunately, we have quite evidences that the bases located in their countries are operational against our country. Many military operations which are carried out by the United States are carried out from those bases. And we expect our neighbouring countries to understand the fact that we cannot sit and watch our country being attacked from those bases and do not have any reaction.

3:24Evan Davis:Of course, we are expected to exercise our right to self-defence by taking appropriate measures against those bases.

3:37Ali Bahreini:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Ali Bahraini.

4:04Evan Davis:And the time that our country is under attacks signals the stability in our country and the fact that the political system is working very efficiently. And secondly, I think if you look at his message, you can understand the principle of continuity. and it seems that he is going to advocate and follow the main principles and guidelines that have been advocated and followed by his father. Everybody now in the country is happy with what has been done, particularly with not letting the position of leadership to be empty for a long time. And everybody is very confident in the ability and wisdom of the new leaders.

5:07Ali Bahreini:And you say the whole country is glad about the continuity and the speed of the decision to get the leadership situation clear. I mean, we hear from many people, some leaving Iran, people in Iran, Iranians outside of Iran. Many have been hoping that this would be a moment when the Iranian regime would fall. They're not necessarily welcoming American and Israeli bombs, maybe not, but they are nevertheless not delighted by the regime. I wonder if people wanted to resist the regime, come onto the streets and say, we don't want this new supreme leader, we don't like him. Would that be allowed at this point?

5:50Evan Davis:Of course, there is divergence of views in our country like any other country, but the democratic system is telling us that the decision of democratic institutions should be respected. The election of a new leader has been conducted through a democratic process. It has been made by the assembly of experts who are the representatives of the people. And the reaction in our country, the feedback has been quite positive. If you look at the presence of Iranian people in the streets nowadays, you can see that they have supported the decision. And there are very positive sentiments for this decision.

6:48Evan Davis:what of the major miscalculations which was made by Donald Trump and his ally, Benjamin Netanyahu, was that, okay, they will attack Iran, and then there would be a kind of collapse in Iranian political system, and the things will change in the way they wish. but the reaction shown by our people was quite opposite. The people came into the streets from the very beginning after the attack and they expressed their support to the government. In many years they came into the streets in order to express their support.

7:36Ali Bahreini:There is a different point of view as well, which is that the reason why people come out and support the regime is there are many supporters, and let's be quite clear about that, there are many supporters, but there are many people who oppose the regime, and it's difficult for them to come out on the same terms, because there isn't freedom of expression, and there isn't freedom of protest, and some very serious consequences in thousands of deaths have been felt by those who have protested against the regime. And that obviously is a very major factor as to what is going on. So I just come back to if people don't like the regime, are they allowed to protest at the moment in Iran?

8:16Evan Davis:Any person, any individual or any group who has anything to say in our society, He is allowed to express itself very peacefully with the condition that they make their demonstration, assembly and expression in peaceful manner. And in fact, it is our government who has got the responsibility of protecting people, those who want to express themselves. They are not only allowed, they are protected.

8:52Ali Bahreini:Can we talk about Iran's tactics in this war? I'd like to focus on the bombing of your neighbours, the Gulf states, neighbours that have not necessarily allowed their bases, their American bases, they've got American bases, sure, hadn't allowed those bases to be used in the attack on Iran. And why you felt it was a good idea to bomb those countries, to strike those countries with drones and missiles?

9:19Evan Davis:This is a message that we have given to our neighboring countries, that we don't fight against them. We don't have any war against those countries. We are friends. We belong to the same family. In fact, we appreciate the role they have played before the start of war to give contribution to the diplomatic process. All of them were involving and they were trying to have contribution. But unfortunately, we have quite evidences that the bases located in their countries are operational against our country. Many military operations which are carried out by the United States are carried out from those bases.

10:10Evan Davis:For example, the attack which was made against one school in the city of Minab and resulted in the massacre of more than 160 students has been carried out from the U.S. bases in our region. There are many evidences which shows that those bases are operational against our security, against our country. And we expect our neighboring countries to understand the fact that we cannot sit and watch our country being attacked from those bases and do not have any reaction. Of course, we are expected to exercise our right to self-defense by taking appropriate measures against those bases.

10:57Ali Bahreini:But Oman had been serving as an arbitrator, a country that was trying to stop this war happening. Are you saying that Oman's bases, American base in Iran had been used to attack Iran and that that was that makes it fair and legitimate for Iran to attack Oman?

11:17Evan Davis:There is no any verified information indicating that Iran has attacked Oman. and we are very suspicious about maybe some other agents have conducted that attack against Oman. Okay, that's useful to hear. For sure it has been said to our Omanid friends and brothers that we do not target any place in Oman because Oman is not part of the Suar against Iran.

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12:34Ali Bahreini:Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. At IUP, grad school works with my life and my career goals. With 60 programs, online, on campus, full or part-time, Indiana University of Pennsylvania will open doors for your career. Visit iup.edu. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. I spoke to Ali Bahraini last week. Now, it's been surprisingly rare to hear official voices from Iran during this war, and so I appreciate having a decent amount of time to talk to Ambassador Bahraini. But it does create a dilemma. It's difficult to know how far simply to put questions and listen to the answers in order to understand what the Iranian position is, which we don't often hear, or how far to challenge some of those answers.

13:27Ali Bahreini:In the end, I went for a bit of both. Let's return to my conversation with Ali Bahraini. You have sent pretty well as many weapons at the United Arab Emirates, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, as you have against Israel. It's perplexing from afar to see Iran attacking United Arab Emirates and then saying, we want to be your friends and we want to reach out and be good neighbours?

13:54Evan Davis:Yes, we want to be good neighbours.

13:59But we expect our neighbouring countries not to provide any facility or any space to United States

14:11Evan Davis:to attack our country. What we are doing is not to attack the United Arab Emirates or any other country in our region. We are exclusively attacking those bases which are used by the United States Army to attack our country. And the friendship among our neighborhood, in our neighborhood, is a principle which we follow it, we advocate it, we like it. But we expect the neighboring countries not to make any facilitation for the army of the United States to attack our country. That is a principle which should be acceptable for the peaceful coexistence in our region.

15:00Ali Bahreini:And just to be clear, when you hit civilian targets in Dubai, a hotel, for example, or the airport, the main airport, that is just an accidental strike by Iran because you're only aiming at the actual bases, the American bases. So you're not intending any attack on civilian targets in Dubai?

15:22Evan Davis:No, our military forces have been instructed, and they are very careful about this instruction, not to attack any non-military location or place, not to make any harm to civilians, and they have been very careful about this. but sometimes the Australian tactics of our enemy, United States, is changing. Sometimes they are using their official bases in those countries in order to attack our country, and sometimes they are using some other places which are not, seemingly they are not recognized as military bases, but they are used for military purposes. and I think it is the United States which should be blamed for making such a huge problem for our neighboring countries because for us it is a matter of defense it is a matter of self-defense and we should make sure that there would be no attack against us from those bases and unfortunately the United States military forces are using not only those official bases, but also some other places in those countries in order to make operations against us.

16:53Evan Davis:And we expect our neighbouring countries to stop them from doing these malicious policies.

17:00Ali Bahreini:Can I ask if Russia is giving much help to Iran in this war?

17:08Evan Davis:Iran and Russia have close relationship. We have supported each other on many issues. But to tell you the fact, Iran has never outsourced its security. Iran has always tried to be independent with regard to its military capabilities. is Iran has prepared itself for such a scenario, for such a situation, because our assessments were telling us that the possibility of war is very high, and we have prepared ourselves for this situation.

17:58Ali Bahreini:How long do you think Iran can last? How long before Iran runs out of ballistic missiles, runs out of drones? How long can Iran tolerate this war?

18:09Evan Davis:Iran is defending itself, and this defense will continue to the point that the aggressors are stopped. For us, the end of war is when the aggressors are stopping the war. Iran did not start this war, and it was the United States and Israel who started this war. If you look at the statement made by Donald Trump on the first day of war, then you can measure the level of success for the United States and level of victory and success for us. Donald Trump was indicating that they will attack Iran for a few days and then the system will collapse and then they will repeat what they have done in Venezuela.

19:02Evan Davis:And everything went into a different direction. We measure our success and victory with how we have defended our country. Because we have been able to attack Israel, to have serious attacks against Israel, despite of the heavy problems in the flow of information. But different evidences and footages are showing how Iranian attacks have been efficient against Israel. Iran has not allowed them to have any invasion from the land. That is something that they were planning at the beginning, but they very quickly realized that it is impossible, and they failed in that regard. And one more important thing is the solidarity of Iranians.

20:01Evan Davis:It is a strong message to the United States to Israel, that the Iranian nation is not a nation to surrender. Coming back to your question, Iran will defend itself to the point that the aggression is stopped.

20:16Ali Bahreini:I want to just talk about that tragedy. It appears to have been an American accidental strike on the first day of the war against a girl's school, elementary school, in Minab. You referred to it. And most people who've looked at this do think it was the Americans who struck that school. Can I ask you whether it was a coincidence that the IRGC base, a military base, was right next door to an elementary girls' school? It was clear that the Americans were aiming at the base, but hit the school.

20:50Evan Davis:I do not want and I expect nobody to give any kind of justification to the crime which has been committed by the United States. According to the latest information, this has been a deliberate attack against that school. And I think what everybody should do is to condemn the United States, particularly now that everything is clear for everybody. Donald Trump was trying to fabricate some lies attributing this to Iran, but now everybody knows and it is clear that it has been made by United States forces. And I think that there is no difference to commit a crime, such a big crime. Even if it is accidentally, those who have attacked, those who have ordered, should be held accountable.

21:54Evan Davis:We don't believe it has been accidental because it is against what they are claiming, because the United States is claiming that they are very precise. How can it be accidental? It cannot be accidental. It has been a precise attack against a well-known school, and no excuse can be acceptable to attack a school of children and to commit such a massacre, which is a clear example of the war crime. and I'm sure that the United States will pay a very big price for that crime.

22:40Ali Bahreini:And one last question, Ambassador, if I might, is when you look at the events of the last two weeks, do you think it may have been better for Iran to make more concessions in the talks that were occurring with the United States before this war? your country's position is we didn't want nuclear weapons but we did want to enrich uranium and to enrich it above levels that might be needed for civil power why not just concede more and have kept your country safe do you ever look back at what's happened and think we should have just given away more in the negotiations to save this country going through what it's going through

23:22Evan Davis:The fact that the war has taken place does not give any argument for those who have attacked us. I think Iran was enough constructive, enough creative. Iran came with a specific initiative to the negotiations. The assessment made by Omani foreign minister was quite positive, and he was a genuine assessment about the negotiations. He believed that agreement is within our reach. All those assessments were based on realistic criteria, realistic parts of the negotiations. I think Iran was very constructive. Iran showed good faith in the negotiations you know it was at the time that we had one very bad experience before in June at the time that when we were negotiating we were attacked.

24:33Evan Davis:But despite of that fact in order to show our good faith, in order to show our constructiveness Iran accepted to engage in a new round of negotiations but again they attacked Iran.

25:42Ali Bahreini:We'll see you next time. funds swept to program banks boost up to$150 ,000 cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along, which is why you should try Zip Recruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash zip. Zip Recruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you, it finds them for you. Its powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job.