Amina Mohammed, UN Deputy Secretary-General: peace as a word losing its value

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

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1:31There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met Amina Mohamed, the Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations. The interview took place at the organization's headquarters in New York, where the UN is currently hosting its annual General Assembly. Leaders, senior politicians and diplomats from all over the world are meeting there to discuss and resolve a variety of the planet's most pressing issues.

2:21This is the General Assembly's 80th such gathering. Since the United Nations was formed, this year's theme is Better Together and sees a renewed urgency on delivering the UN's sustainable development goals, 17 interconnected global goals, first adopted by all UN member states in 2015, covering areas including ending poverty, improving health and education, and tackling climate change. Before becoming the UN's fifth Deputy Secretary General, a role Ms. Mohamed took up in 2017, the Nigerian British diplomat and politician previously served as Nigeria's Minister for the Environment. In this interview, she reflects on the price of war and how peace is losing its value.

3:07She also discusses the need for the UN Security Council to be more accountable and growing calls to increase its size to include more member states. I'm frustrated that we cannot stop the wars so that we can invest more in development. the Security Council often is paralyzed in its decision making. But the voting, the veto, the veto now can be discussed in the General Assembly. We didn't have that before. Veto, veto, and that's it, remained in the dark room. Now there's a light on it. That creates a lot of pressure in countries. Who didn't vote? Who abstained? And I think these things are important because it brings a greater knowledge of the responsibility of member states.

3:50You can't hide behind the two letters of United Nations. And you cannot hide behind that anymore. You have to stand up and be counted. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Amina Mohamed, the Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations. To the UN General Assembly, the world gathers here to discuss some of the world's most pressing issues. What to you will make a successful gathering this time around? Well, first of all, addressing that we are at a time when things are surreal. This is an organization that's born out of the ashes of a war. It is set to keep the peace. It is about we the people, not we the governments.

4:32And I think just assessing where we are today with the global, the geopolitical tensions that we have, and with the constraints on everyone's ability to see the future. So leaders are going to have to come here, and they are coming. They're coming in great numbers. But what will they say? What will they get up onto that rostrum and tell the world, tell their own audiences at home? And I think they have to have a recommitment to peace and to finding that within themselves, within the convening and the conversations and the dialogue and the ceasefires that are needed and the negotiated outcomes for peace, the investments in that, and that peace doesn't become sort of a side story.

5:09So I hope that what we're going to hear is much more of that, a world coming together. More recently, we've seen in this institution that in spite of a couple of countries, we are all coming together. There is consensus minus one or two. That's huge. That's over 193 countries. So I think many are saying consensus is not unanimity. And that's important for us because we have to move with the rest of the world. 80 years later, we cannot go back. We're going forward. Things have happened, good things. And we will continue to push forward. We'll continue to try to better explain to the world what it means to have continuous dialogue, what it means to fight for the freedoms that we have had in our Declaration of Human Rights and the Charter itself.

5:54And so what we're hoping in this is the momentum. It's not to dwell because things are pretty miserable. People are suffering. People cannot see tomorrow. But it's the opportunities that we have to come together to find those solutions. and the convening to do that with leaders that have a responsibility. Some have more than others. And it's really finding that space to move the agenda forward. I mean, just to pick up on something that you said about the possibility of peace becoming a side story of the UN General Assembly, the residents of Sudan, of Eastern DRC, I'm sure would have wanted to hear that.

6:28Any guarantees that there may be a way forward from the developments of the UN General Assembly regarding those countries? What's your feeling? I'm optimistic because those leaders are coming and those leaders will gather. And often it's not just when they come into the General Assembly and speak their national statements, but they're having the side meetings. And this is a place where you will gather at one time and get to speak to different sides of who needs to be brought around the table. So I think the people of Sudan and the people of DRC should remain hopeful. There will be a lot of pressure in the rooms here for them to do something about that.

7:04People can all continue to suffer. The atrocities, we have not even begun to see what is happening in Sudan. I mean, often the media will move to Gaza, and so it should. But there are many, whether it is the Sahel and the atrocities that are being perpetuated there by the terrorist groups, or the Sudan and this, I mean, we cannot explain, but a terrible conflict that is happening there. Or Myanmar, Ukraine. We've got enough to keep us going. So I think what we need to focus on is to say that investing in peace has a better outcome. Today, we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. I mean, some new data from Save the Children reported that there's been a fourfold increase.

7:48You probably saw that of sexual violence reports by women, you know, children in Eastern DRC. Beyond making statements, is the UN able to do more either now or in the days to come to hold those accountable, whether from either sides of the conflict there? I think we can continue to push the tools that we have. We have a great toolbox. It's not that it's for want of instruments, but actually getting those instruments to perform in the lives of people for peace, to end wars and conflict, that's what has been most difficult because you need all parties around the table. You need to get to the root cause.

8:21You need to find, you know, not just the two that are, you know, heads banged together for the conflicts, but it's all the funders of it. Often funders of these conflicts are coming from outside the borders of that country, sometimes from outside of the continent. And we have to call that out. And we have to say this is not acceptable behavior. You cannot with one hand pay for the weapons of war and at the same time say you're doing something on the humanitarian side. You know, it's just not, should not. Are you referring to any country specifically? That sounds like a very specific. I refer to many countries that are in this game.

8:55And I think that this is where we have to say enough is enough. And these are the holes that it can happen. Some things you can do in the marketplace and others you can't. I mean, what you have to focus on is getting an outcome for people to stop the wars, to stop what happens to women and children. Often men go to war and they come back as heroes. But women, raped, discarded, come back to try to build a future that is almost impossible. And so I think that we have to get real with this. We cannot continue to do this to our people. No one deserves that. So if it's proven that the external players involved in Eastern DRC or Sudan, should they be sanctioned?

9:31And by whom? I'm not sure that sanctions so much matter. They're not cutting it. There are many countries that are sanctioned today. I'm not sure that we've seen a result out of that. But I will say that every instrument that is available to try to bring people to book, to be accountable, to stop the wars, to bring the ceasefires, even if it's that space that is required for us to have a dialogue and to find peace. That's what we should be doing. But peace seems to be a word, a five-letter word that is losing its value. And we have to ask ourselves why. Start with yourself as an individual, as a leader, and then the community.

10:07And hear the people outside of these halls, hear what people who you are to serve are asking and are demanding, actually, in many of our cases. And I think this is important for the future. The future is young people in Africa. We have the largest cohort. We have the greatest opportunities because, quite frankly, technology coming along today can be a good thing for us. But, you know, the enabling environment to even have the opportunity to do that, to aspire. We are in desperate need because there's no part of the continent that doesn't have a challenge. So hearing you raise your concerns here today, and you're not just any ordinary human being, you sit at the helm of the United Nations.

10:46Are you frustrated that the UN isn't able to do more? And what are some of the factors that you think are leading to that? Is it veto challenges of the UN Security Council? Is it ineffectiveness when it comes to interventions? Yeah, I'm frustrated that we cannot stop the wars so that we can invest more in development. We can invest in the resolutions that have been amazing around the SDGs, around technology that we've had more recently. But I'm more frustrated with the leadership around the world because the UN is the member states. There is a secretariat, and yes, we try to keep the engine going and to oil the wheels.

11:22That's what the Secretary General is there for. But essentially, this is about member states. Yes, we are frustrated that the Security Council often is paralyzed in its decision-making, But the voting, the veto, the veto now can be discussed in the General Assembly. We didn't have that before. Veto, veto, and that's it, remained in the dark room. Now there's a light on it. That creates a lot of pressure in countries. People are asking their leaders, so what are you doing about that? It's not just that you get a majority vote. Who didn't vote? Who abstained? And I think these things are important because it brings a greater knowledge of the responsibility of member states.

12:01You can't hide behind the two letters of the United Nations, UN. You cannot hide behind that anymore. You have to stand up and be counted. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story.

12:46What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:51administrations with the UN Security Council and how to keep it accountable. She seemed keen to engage and the conversation did continue for a little bit even after the cameras stopped rolling. Okay, let's return now to my conversation with Amina Mohamed. Is it time to reopen the UN Charter, you know, make changes in the UN Security Council to allow for more members to participate? Well, member states have been doing this for a while. There is Security Council reform on the agenda, and member states will have to come to a conclusion of what happens. It's been going on for decades. More recently, in the Pact for the Future, there was a lot of traction for member states where they said, yes, we've got to increase that ownership and membership veto of the Security Council that reflects today's realities and where economies are, where representation is.

14:42You shouldn't have your head shaved in your absence. You need to be there. and Africa is up front and center of what everyone says needs to be fixed. I was going to ask you, how many seats do you think Africa should get in the Security Council? I think they should get as many as a member state should be represented. So far, I think they have always taken two, three seats. I mean, it's better than zero. And it represents more of what we would see of Africa. And it's 54 states. We cannot be treated as a country and then a country that's not even represented there. That's an African speaking. as a DSG that's a member state issue.

15:17But I think that people recognize that in financial institutions. They recognize it in the United Nations. Things have to change. They are already. I mean, I think the Pact for the Future recognizes there are new dimensions to the world that we live in today. The financial architecture needs to be fixed. We certainly need to look at the new era of technology and AI. And we need a new peace and security architecture. We do. And so for that, member states are going to have to move with some of the reforms that we've more recently introduced. We've said 80 years on, most things, shelf life starts to expire, right?

15:53We need a rebirth. And in that rebirth, does it mean opening the charter? I don't think so. Let's live up to the ideals of the charter. It's still we the people. It's still about the declaration of human rights. It's in our constitutions. South African constitution, Nigerian constitution, these constitutions need to be lived. They need to be the investments in our economy so that everyone is part of that. It's inclusive. So I do think that we need to look at our institution. We have. We put some proposals on the table for member states to say these mandates could be implemented more effectively.

16:25The structures we have for the UN, we don't want to lose the mandates. They are very valid. If the UN Security Council cannot agree on a ceasefire, do you want the secretariat or some other body to have the ability to intervene if it's stuck? I mean, how do you then move that forward? Who makes that decision? In the end, it's member states. Maybe it's member states in the region. Quite frankly, the African Union. If the African Union can rise and chart that way, we would have many better steps to where we need to get. To DRC, for instance, now it took a little while, but now at least there are elders, there is an AU mandate for them to try to come to some conclusion.

17:05It needs the international community because often investments are needed to keep the peace. It's one thing to get it, then we have to keep it. So everyone needs to be interested. But, you know, peace in Africa has to come from Africans first. President Trump says he had to intervene in the DRC because the UN hadn't done a good enough job there. Do you see where he's coming from? It's been a 30-year conflict. I think it was reasonable for President Trump to say, OK, how can I be part of that movement to find an end to this conflict? And that's what he did. he put his best effort forward. We haven't yet got peace.

17:40Let's hope we can. When you look at the UN General Assembly, one can imagine that many African leaders will be getting up on the podium to demand those two permanent seats. We were here at the exact same time last year, and they were making the same speeches. What advice would you have for them to move the needle forward on that discussion, if that's going to change anything? I think it's about saying, you know, first of all, don't give up, but put the volume up, negotiate better, find the different partners that are perhaps not convinced and convince them. You need to get into somebody else's head that says no before you can have a discussion on how to get them to say yes.

18:15So meet people where they're at. It's not an either or. Just let me meet you where you are and see if I can bring you to where I am. We want seats on the Security Council. This is what Africa is saying. So where are those blockages? And try to address them. So with all that we've discussed here today, as the UN marks 80 years, is there anything to celebrate? Oh, there is much to celebrate. The world is burning, one would say, or many parts of the world. It's not the first time it's been burning. It's maybe burning a little hotter today. But what this place has been able to do is look at the reality, look at the aspirations of what we should be doing and try to close that gap.

18:55So, yes, climate change is a big issue. We're going to COP30 in Belém, Brazil, with people we hope will have nationally determined contributions that will keep us a 1.5 degree world. Things have started to change. There are more investments now in clean energy than they've ever been before. No one was really talking about this a decade ago. So there has been movement. The world is going to go on for many more hundreds of years and it will be intact. But we will do more damage to it if we don't pay attention to some of the things we've agreed to do. And I think that's what we have to be about, is every day talk about the commitments and the promises that we've made to people and to look for the barriers and try to, you know, get past them, navigate them.

19:38And in some cases, we have a lot of solutions. In other cases, it's a little tough. The financial agenda is a big one because we are saying resources need to be more equitably distributed. It's not charity. It's investment. And we continue to fight that, fight it at the G20 that South Africa is holding right now, but also here in the financing for development, in our financial institutions, the IMF, the World Bank. It never stops. And you have to go down each path to find ways forward. If you had the power to make a unilateral decision on reforming the UN, how member states engage, the secretariat, etc., what would your first moves be?

20:18What would my first moves be? I think, well, first of all, I think that the Security Council should be much more accountable. Where are the accountability mechanisms for a Security Council to work as it was designed in the beginning, which was to hold up peace. It came out of the ashes of World War II. And today, people will argue that are we better off? We might not have had a world war. But when you see how many guns need to be silenced around the world, it's huge. And so one of the first things is to recalibrate the Security Council to give us much more accountability for peace. This is really important.

20:55I need to get a quick reaction from you on the announcement by the U.S. about a new global health strategy. They want to prioritize frontline health supplies, staff, and working directly with countries. They want to stop, you know, partnering with NGOs as much as in previous models. What's your sense of that? And what impact have the U.S. cuts generally had on global public health from where you sit? They've been huge. I mean, first withdrawing for the WHO is not very helpful. And we hope that they will reconsider that and come back because this is a norms and, you know, setting body that helps us globally deal with pandemics, globally deal with the vaccine, with many things that have saved millions of lives.

21:31but in the initiative that they bring, it's absolutely welcome. We need more support for frontline workers. We need more health systems working more efficiently. But health systems working more efficiently is not a handout. It's investing in that government to provide the revenue that is going to work the health systems. If it's humanitarian settings and the frontline workers for health, absolutely. If you're going to come back and start to fund, well, fund they were funding, but bring funding back to the humanitarian constituency? Absolutely. But let's understand that NGOs are very much a part of this.

22:06These are partners on the ground who go the last mile. In Sudan today, it's not the United Nations that goes the last mile. It's our partners who are able to be on the front lines that we're not able to even get to. So this is a massive constituency of partnerships. They say a certain percentage was lost on overhead, wastage, maybe even corruption, and that's why they're taking this new strategy? I think that efficiencies are always going to be a thing of the day and we want that and that's why we have put those, we've rolled out the new humanitarian reset deals with efficiencies. I don't think there's a place in the world that you're not going to be grappling with corruption.

22:44The point is, do we have the checks and balances? Are we focused on the resources getting to the persons that need it? Is there a more efficient way of doing it? We've just talked about technology. Absolutely, there's a more efficient way of doing it. But in the end, for me, we want to see the end of humanitarian because we've addressed conflicts on our continent. We have to have this response. And a good response is a national response. And how can we put into our systems economies that are growing, that are inclusive, and they're investing in peace. That's the prevention piece in development, in a job for every young person in their aspirations.

23:20But you have to have a humanitarian response. You don't know whether climate's going to get you or not, with a flood, with a fire, with the heat that we're seeing today. And it's causing us a whole lot of damage across many places. Crops are failing. So there has to be a humanitarian response. What's the best way to do it? There is a humanitarian reset. It's addressing many of those issues. The U.S. should keep their eye on that space. Have we responded to their concerns? And if we have, we welcome them back to see if we can go together. This is not about any one nation being able to do this by themselves.

23:51The problem is huge. It needs us all to pick up division of labor, get it done. A part of the cuts, the reason why the UN is moving some agencies to the African continent, specifically Nairobi, Kenya? No, it is not. We've been in Kenya and we've been a big footprint there, big footprint in Uganda, big footprint in my country, Nigeria. But when we are looking at how to better serve, of course, we will look at efficiencies. and we are hearing all partners. The cuts didn't start with the US. They were in the UK, they were in the EU. This is a trend that has been happening on ODA over time. And what we really need to see is first, let's invest in our economies in the developing world so we can do these jobs ourselves.

24:31We cannot 80 years still be saying we've got another 80 years before we develop to a place where we can meet the aspirations of our people. So let's say this is a partnership and let's hope that what they see is that they're investing in development and investing in development is a more peaceful world. It's more fair, it's more inclusive. Put the checks and balances in to hold people to account, leaders from wherever, and see how we move forward.

24:59Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Brazilian President Lula da Silva, Nobel Peace Prize winner Ellen Johnson-Surliff, and international music legend Stevie Wonder. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, Hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.