Amir Khan Muttaqi, Afghan FM: Not everything is banned for women

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1:59This is a war. The first thing that we want is a war to end. For this interview, I met Amir Khan Mutaki, Afghanistan's foreign minister, in Kabul, inside his ministry's sprawling compound behind high walls. The Taliban returned to power five years ago. But Russia is still the only country to have formally recognized their rule. Many neighboring states, including China and Iran, have kept their embassies open and signed investment deals, amounting to de facto engagement. Afghanistan is pushing for stronger diplomatic relations, but their treatment of women and girls remains one of the biggest obstacles.

2:45We asked the Foreign Minister why Afghan women and girls are facing growing restrictions on education, work and public life. What does he say to many countries, including Islamic states, who say they're denying girls and women their basic rights? Afghanistan also needs more aid and investment in the midst of a deepening humanitarian and economic crisis. Are the Taliban prepared to do more to achieve full international recognition, including the lifting of sanctions? This is an injustice to Afghans. It's an excuse. There are no sensible causes due to which sanctions will be imposed on Afghanistan.

3:31Now the human rights situation in Afghanistan is way better than the 20 years of the invasion or when there were Soviet forces here. The situation of the people has got way better and they have more rights. That's why we can say it's a political decision or political pressure. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Amir Khan Mutaki.

3:59You know that Afghanistan has been through 40 years of war and especially the recent 20 years of war led by US and NATO, where Afghanistan was occupied by them. After this, we can divide the world into two parts. One is Asia and the other Europe, or one is East and one is West. Our relations have developed a lot with regional and Eastern countries. In terms of economy, politics, relations, investment, we have good achievements. And with the European countries as well, there are developments. In some countries, our representative offices have opened. Our diplomats have arrived. So the current situation is good because its foundation gets stronger.

4:44Looking at the current stability and independence in Afghanistan, the world strengthens its relations with us. We consider this situation positive and we hope to have a good future.

4:58You're still isolated from the West. Is it a priority? to try to fix that? We shouldn't think of Europe as the whole of the world. We have good relations with world countries and there are developments with European countries. As I said, in European countries, our representative offices have opened. Our diplomats are there. This by itself shows development. Only one country, Russia, has formally recognized Taliban rule. Does that matter to you? Basically, recognition matters indeed, and being recognized by Russia is a good development. One of the biggest issues, blocking better relations with the West, is how the Taliban government treats the rights of women and girls.

5:53Doesn't it concentrate your mind on the urgency of improving that?

6:03The contact with women shouldn't be looked at through the glasses of Western culture and tradition. Afghan values should be considered. It's not as fraud as Western media and people think. You can wander around Afghanistan, in Kabul, in the cities, see the way women work, do business or go to elementary schools or to madrasas. The situation isn't the way it can be interpreted. In this regard, we have more than 3 million girls in schools and madrasas who are busy studying and this process is going on. It's not at a standstill. Of course, there might be a little interruption in some of the affairs, but there are other developments in Afghanistan to look at.

6:42The cultivation of drugs in Afghanistan is zero. There is security in Afghanistan with groups that could harm other countries destroyed. There is a lot happening that we can have collaboration with the world.

7:00Every Western envoy you meet tells you your record is not good enough, especially when it comes to women and girls. Is that message not getting through? Yes, when we meet with foreign groups and Western delegations, we always discuss these issues. We listen to their concerns too, and we explain our circumstances as well. Only two things are very important. The situation in Afghan society should be looked at from the perspective of Afghan values, not the West. This is the first. The second is that the situation isn't as bad as the negative propaganda about this issue. The situation isn't like that.

7:47Mr. Minister, you know that even Islamic officials from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar, from Indonesia, from so many Islamic countries the world over gave you the same message. It's not an issue of a Western idea, educating women and girls and letting them work.

8:11Yes, these issues have been discussed by various countries and international organizations and I express that we have a lot of female students in religious madrasas that study until the end. In those madrasas there are modern subjects too and there are more than 3 million students under class 6 in schools who study and these female students are being taught by female teachers so there is development in this regard. The UN says 2.4 million Afghan girls are now being deprived of a secondary education. If that continues, there won't be any Afghan women doctors, teachers and many more. Is that the kind of country you want to represent?

8:55This really is a problem and it will be considered. Does it really bother you? You must have sisters, daughters? At the moment, we don't face such shortage, and we will try not to face it in the future. But if we have shortage in this field, then it really is a problem.

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10:47It's a world apart, with its manicured lawns and elegant buildings. I couldn't help but remember striding across these grounds in the late 1980s, during the Cold War, when Afghanistan was under Soviet occupation. That's when Amir Khan Motaki was part of the Western-backed Mujahideen fighters. How the wheels of history turn. But let's return to my conversation with Motaki, the Foreign Minister. Is it a top priority for you to establish a new relationship with the United States? Yes, we've wanted positive relations with the U.S. and we don't have any problem now. But it will be very good that our relations grow and finally get to a normal level.

11:37One of the big issues for the United States is the continuing presence of foreign fighters in Afghanistan, including al-Qaeda. In your discussions with the US in the past, have you indicated you're ready to do more on that? There is no military group in Afghanistan at the moment, and we don't allow anyone to use our soil against others. We have proved it in the past five years, and it's been tested in the past five years that there haven't been any actions taken in Afghanistan against other countries. Some circles spread propaganda that there are various groups in Afghanistan. This is not true.

12:18So far, no one presented any proof. Al-Qaeda or other organizations don't have members in Afghanistan. In case there were those foreigners in the past 20 or 25 years, they've returned to their countries. Now there aren't such persons that can be called members of militant groups. Did the Taliban learn a lesson in 2001 when you were first in power, when the Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden operated from Afghanistan, which led to the September 11th attacks, and your downfall? Do you want to stop that from happening again?

12:57It's our official policy, the last time we Afghans suffered because of an action that Afghans had nothing to do with it. In 9-11, there was no Afghan involved. The current government, Islamic Emirates' policy is that it doesn't allow anyone to use Afghanistan's soil against anyone. This is our core policy. We committed to this and we will act accordingly. There isn't any such problem and we don't allow it to cause such big incidents and uneasiness.

13:28Why then does the UN Security Council report still say, and I quote, Taliban assertions that terrorist groups have no footprint in Afghanistan and do not operate from the country are not credible?

13:50They've got two problems. One, they are unaware of Afghanistan's situation. Two, they receive the information from the sources who fought with us for 20 years. Obviously, our opponents or enemies give them negative discourse. So far, they haven't presented any proof to show these people exist in a place in Afghanistan. I wish they were aware of the situation in Afghanistan or their sources were credible. Their sources are those who are against the current government. That's why they publish such reports.

14:30Yeah, but people we meet here say that there is a presence of foreign fighters, including al-Qaeda.

14:38It's not true and I don't think people here said so. If there were people like that here, they would have done something, small or big. President Trump would say, what does Taliban-ruled Afghanistan have for the people of the United States? What are you saying to the US in your messages? What can you offer to them? Judging from what President Trump has said before, it could be access to your minerals, vast untapped reserves, rare earth, Bagram Air Base, which was once in their hands. Is that up for negotiation?

15:19As we want normal relations with other countries in the world, we want the same normal relations with the U.S. too. Afghans don't accept anyone's military presence in their soil, whether it's in one part or the whole of Afghanistan. We want diplomatic relations, economic, political, cultural and normal going and coming. But Afghans don't accept military presence. And also, if they want, they can invest in mining in other areas. Afghanistan is a country that's in construction. It's developing. Here, investment can be made in power sector, in industry and factories. There are good opportunities in many areas.

16:03But for now, the message to you must be the US is not interested. This belongs to them. We're not aware of their internal policies as to how much they're interested. The foreign ministry recently sent a delegation to Brussels for a one-day meeting, discussions with 15 European governments about Afghans, they say, have no right to stay in Europe and should be sent back to Afghanistan. The EU described those as technical talks. How did you see them?

16:40Our delegation has been to Brussels. There has been talks about Afghans consulate services, on the activities of diplomatic representation, and also comprehensive talks about the problems of Afghans there. One of the problems is that in those countries there are Afghans who are in jails and they don't have the right to live freely. There has been talks about the transparency of those Afghans.

17:07But Europe wants to make it clear, these are not political talks, but do you see them as the beginning of a more normal relationship with Europe? It's a positive exchange of visits, a positive development. Obviously, a small move is initially required for more developments. It's possible that in the future we exchange more visits. So if you see that as a positive movement, would you in return start to make more positive movement on the other issues which matter to Western countries? Counter-terrorism, inclusive governance, and of course the rights of women and girls.

17:50Afghanistan. These are our internal issues. We ourselves don't want to have militant groups in Afghanistan. We don't allow anyone outside the government's framework to do any activities. It's about the quality of governance in Afghanistan. That's also an issue among Afghans. And we have good reasons that in comparison to previous government, the majority of Afghans are satisfied with the current government. If it wasn't satisfactory to the people, there wouldn't have been security in the country. No one has brought security by force.

18:29For the past five years, you have been meeting diplomats from the world over who tell you those are not internal issues if you want to take up your seat at the United Nations. Are you unable or unwilling to have a meaningful discussion on those issues?

18:57So far we haven't seen any article in the UN's laws, nor has anyone showed us, which would say that if these conditions are met, UN's seat can be given to a country or the government would be recognized.

19:13These are their political decisions. I mean, it's not legal issues to argue about. As far as it concerns Afghanistan, it has completed all the conditions that the government requires.

19:28But you're also under international sanctions linked to terrorism and human rights. And the fact that only one country has formally recognized you, it doesn't send you a message, a strong message, that you have to do more?

19:48This is an injustice to Afghans. It's an excuse. There are no sensible causes due to which sanctions will be imposed on Afghanistan. Now the human rights situation in Afghanistan is way better than the 20 years of the invasion or when there were Soviet forces here. The situation of the people has got way better and they have more rights. That's why we can say it's a political decision or political pressure. As a foreign minister, I don't find it appropriate to name countries. But in many countries in the world, a lot of cruelty was done to humans. Huge atrocities happened and it's still going on.

20:27But no one took away their recognition.

20:33That's why I can say that this is an excuse against Afghans.

20:43Name one. As I said, I don't find it appropriate to name countries. In recent years, more than six million Afghans have been forced to return to Afghanistan, mostly from neighboring Iran and Pakistan. How much of a strain is this putting on your country's limited resources?

21:09This is a fact. Very developed countries in the world with big economies and conveniences, when 5 ,000, 10 ,000, 20 ,000 new people go to them, they come under huge pressure. So 6 million refugees is a big number. But still, in the past five years, we managed the coming of these refugees well. And luckily, these refugees brought with them good skills. They are well-educated and they have good experiences. And now most of them are busy at work in their own country. Although at the moment there is pressure due to their return, but in the long run their return will benefit them as well as Afghanistan.