Anika Wells, Communications Minister: Australia’s social media ban

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:31Canadians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I met Annika Wells, the Australian Communications Minister at her electorate office in Brisbane. You're going to hear about a new digital law that she's spearheading to protect children's health and well-being.

2:10From December 10th, Australian children under 16 will no longer be able to access platforms including TikTok, Instagram and Snapchat. Platforms that encourage them to spend more time online with their algorithms doom-scrolling. That's what the government's trying to avoid. It's a world first and social media companies will face fines of up to 50 million Australian dollars. That's about 32 million US dollars if they fail to take steps to ensure that under-16s in Australia cannot set up accounts. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, wants his government to encourage better mental health in young people.

2:50And the ban has the backing of many Australian adults. but the technology companies most affected are based outside the country and could challenge the ban. One concern is that kids could be driven to more dangerous online content. Plenty of others want the ban lifted because they think it will leave them more isolated or less informed and, of course, less connected. Annika Wells, a mother herself, is up for the fight and concedes that the law is still a work in progress. You'll hear her explain why some gaming platforms and chat forums like Roblox and Discord have been excluded and how the ban will be policed.

3:29No easy task. I've been honest from the outside, this isn't a cure, it's a treatment plan and treatment plans will always evolve as we adapt and address harm and see what works and what doesn't. So we aren't banning the internet here and whilst lots of people would like us to do more drastic measures we've started with a social media login and for every person that says to me why haven't you included these big elements someone else is saying to me it is impossible for you to do what you've even set out to do now so we'll watch what happens we'll see what kind of cultural change it creates and keep working

4:10Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Annika Wells. In these kinds of jobs you face different kinds of pressure every single day. I was the aged care minister before I got this role. We landed these big systemic sustainable funding reforms for aged care that was sort of the biggest in about 30 years. That took nine months to do. Every single day that I didn't land those. I had people waiting for a bed. So whilst this is enormous and this is world leading, I think the nature of the pressure upon me is much the same. We've been speaking to lots of young people in the last few weeks and some are okay with this ban, others are not.

4:51Patronising they call it, they can have a job, they can have a bank account but they can't get on the platform of their choice. What do you say to them? Having a job or a bank account aren't necessarily so demonstrably harmful as being online, on social media and subject to predatory algorithms. The research that places like the Safety Commission, which is Australia's independent regulator for safety online, the evidence is now that 7 out of 10 Australian kids are suffering harm online and that's as a result of activity on these kinds of platforms, the predatory algorithms that they see there.

5:29so while I appreciate for people between 13 and perhaps even younger if those platforms aren't policing their own policies if they're having something taken away on 10 December and that is hard I appreciate that we think that overall culturally this will really change the landscape and for Generation Alpha who are coming along who are babies toddlers little kids looking up to their siblings, this will really make for cultural change by the time they have their own device and ability to have a login. And you've got small children in that generation. What are you talking, how are you talking to them?

6:06Obviously you've got an eight-year-old, so potentially interested in going online? Well I think she's asked for a smartphone for Christmas. I think that every household has their own challenges and even if you are a household that doesn't want screen time, I'm strict about not having devices for children. I know for us the change was when she reached the year at school where you had to have an iPad. So overnight we had to have rules and policies in our house about what that looked like for her, even if previously she'd been device-free. And I guess personally for me, I am not there every night to police her screen time or to check her activity on Roblox or what have you because I'm travelling Australia doing this job, which my husband is very supportive of but it falls to him to do that policing so in a funny way me being the lawmaker for this social media ban is my own contribution to helping those kinds of fights not just in our house but in houses all down our street everywhere I've been surprised by the number of parents who have come up to me whether it's at the shops at a community event as local member to say I just want to say thank you I've felt so helpless in this fight it has felt never-ending you can't out parent an algorithm and this is giving parents another weapon in their arsenal for their lives and for the happiness and mental well-being of their children.

7:30There are neurodiverse communities, LGBTQI plus communities, people who live perhaps more remotely and the worry is that that this ban could impact minority groups there are positives about social media that connection, that community. Why a blanket ban? Why not something more nuanced? There are exceptions for health apps, for education apps. For example, Kids Helpline has an app, an exemption. So we did try to think through those spaces that people with particular needs use. And like you say, internet has utility. We're all on these apps ourselves for our own leisure. We're not trying to ban the internet, but there are places for them to go.

8:09Now to tech companies. So tech companies have said they agree with you on making social media platforms safer, but they don't agree with this ban or delay as it's known. Why was anything other than a ban just not an option? I would contend whilst many of these platforms have safety features, have put their shoulders to the wheel, improving particular elements of their platforms online, manifestly they have had 15, 20 years in this space to do that of their own volition now. And the harms that are coming through by independent research demonstrate it's not enough. It's not enough. And whilst they have every right as private companies to transact business on our shores, every right to make their millions and billions off selling the data of their customers, we choose to do this.

8:56We feel that they have more of a social responsibility as social media platforms than they have signed up for themselves. So we have made it the law. And you talk about making millions and billions of dollars. The maximum fine is what? 49.5 million. million dollars which is about 32 million US dollars. The likes of Meta will earn that in a matter of hours. Is it enough of a deterrent? It is commensurate to the other systemic breaches in spaces like privacy, FOI and those sort of bundles of laws in Australian law systems here. So that's the reason for it. Yes, other people have made that point to me that the risk is that a platform might decide to just cop the fine and continue on unassisted.

9:38Should they choose to do that, they would still be failing to comply with the law. And any Australian company that seeks to conduct business on our shores must comply with Australian law. So we have found that even, like you say, they've been publicly reluctant, they've agreed with the principle, they do not agree with the method. We have found that the vast majority of the affected platforms have said, we consider ourselves to be a good company, we comply with the laws in the countries within which we operate. What do you see as success? You know, when will you know that this ban has been a success or not?

10:12So we've put in place a couple of different markers. We're going to have a two-year survey that kicks off, that monitors different parts of the law, speaking to the 13 to 16-year-olds, experts, to track how this has gone and what we need to do differently or to adapt to make it work more effectively. And I've been trying to look at other cultural change laws, like when we put seatbelts in, made them compulsory, when laws that prohibited under-18s from drinking alcohol, how long did that cultural change take to effect? And I think people understand this law in terms of that experience. This is a law, for example, in the same way that people under 18 aren't allowed to drink alcohol in Australia.

10:53There will be people today under 18 that drink alcohol in Australia. They may even be supported in doing that by their parents. That still doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a law that prevents under-18s from drinking alcohol in Australia because the public health evidence tells us that is a good and proper thing to do. There will be people that act outside this law. We accept that. It doesn't mean it's not worth us putting the law in place and having a big swing at these reforms. Now, Australia's being touted as a world first. In smaller jurisdictions, some states in the US, for example, they've tried and failed to implement similar bans.

11:29The court has pushed them back. are you worried about that failure I mean there's a high court challenge here in Australia now by two teenagers is that something that worries you? Yes I've met with some of those people the governor of Utah came to Australia about a month ago and we met about these laws about his experiences he pointed out some disclosure that's happening through the US court system because of these cases that actually reveals internal documents of these platforms where it's even worse than we thought in terms of intention and what they knew and what they chose not to do about it that give me ballast that we have done the right thing and that of their own accord they knew things and they chose not to do anything about it.

12:07We're pleased to be the first, we're proud to be the first and we stand ready to help any other jurisdiction who seeks to do these things. Like you say we have a high court challenge, somewhat limits what I'm able to say about this compared to this time last week but in no way does it intimidate me. We stand firm on the side of parents and not on platforms. These people who seek to stymie us have ulterior motives and we will fight it in the courts. Are you intimidated by the tech companies? No. Anyone who's got multiple small children knows how to negotiate against powers that seem beyond your control.

12:45I am not intimidated by a big tech because I understand the moral imperative of what we're doing pretty early on becoming the communications minister some parents bereaved parents who had lost kids to suicide through their social media activities through bullying through a series of events I remember walking to a room to be introduced to them and a guy named Whipper said Annika this is Rob Rob was standing there in a suit he was holding a pink urn and he said and this is live and I just felt the oxygen suck out of my body as the very real impact of what is happening stood so politely and respectfully in front of me asking me to act so in the face of that and and countless other stories like that I am firm and unintimidated by those companies continuing to act the way that they have chosen to act for so long.

13:40You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

14:23With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:00For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Annika Wells, Australia's communications minister, at her office in her electorate of Lily, which is in Brisbane. It's a busy time for her. She got the job of communications and sports minister at the beginning of the year. The social media legislation had already been passed in Parliament by that stage, so she inherited the rollout, if you like. And her media team was saying as much, this is big news and they're flat out speaking to families and teens, and of course media, like us. She's pretty forthright on the reasons why this is good for parents.

15:36She's a mother of three herself and talked about those personal challenges. But perhaps more significantly, she seems unfazed by the potential challenges ahead, including from Silicon Valley giants and even the US president. OK, let's return to my conversation with Annika Wells. Donald Trump has said he'll stand up to any country that attacks US tech companies. The Australian eSafety Commission has been called to testify in front of the US Congress. and being called a zealot. How worried are you about retaliation? You say you're not intimidated, but it's a big deal. I mean, the E-Safety Commissioner ultimately answers to me as the Communications Minister.

16:12She and I both consume ourselves with the work on our own shores. And at the moment, we are very much concerned with doing our duty to Australians and Australian taxpayers who pay us to look after good public policy. The US Congress has every right to call whomever they want, but it doesn't mean that what we are obliged to do and what we should be doing should be impacted. Would you expect Donald Trump to weigh in on this? He may yet. He may even as we speak. And that's his right. But Australia was the world first in implementing e-safety, which is an independent regulator and a shop front, essentially, for harms that happen online.

16:49We did that 10 years ago. This is the next step in that work. And when I do this at the end of this year, the next thing I'll be doing is the digital duty of care, which we've committed to doing. It's an expansion of responsibility that social media platforms have to their users on Australian shores. It kind of answers the whatabouts when people say, often against these laws, but what about this, but what about this? A digital duty of care is about what do social media platforms owe to their users? And that's why we currently have out for consultation, what do Australians and Australian users of these platforms expect?

17:25What do they think these platforms owe to them as Australian users? And that will form the digital duty of care, which forms part of the Albanese government response to the Online Safety Act review. This is being targeted as a world first. There are lots of people watching this. What discussions are you having? Are countries coming to you asking advice or just are they sitting back and watching and waiting to see how this pans out? Both. I think we went to the UN during High Level Week and we held an event. And the president of the EU attended that to applaud the laws and to announce that the EU would be setting up a task force in December, watching what Australia does, learning the lessons and seeing how that might apply in an EU context.

18:05Several of the other countries that attended that event have followed up with us. I think we had the president of Malta there, president of Greece there, president of Fiji, prime minister of Fiji. We had a number of world leaders there and many others who couldn't make it, who have remained interested in what we're doing. and I think it's one of those things that, yes, we're the first in the world to do it, but I genuinely feel in 10 years' time we're all going to look back and ask, why did that take so long, not why did they do that? I was at a school last week at a parents' evening, and lots of parents putting their hands up, and then one dad put his hand up and asked about Roblox.

18:43You yourself have mentioned that your daughter plays Roblox. When he asked that question, the mood in the room changed. People were gasping, going, that's a question I want. Why? There are so many parents who want to know why on earth gaming platforms like Roblox, Discord is another one, why they've not been included. So the E-Safety Commissioner definitely has her eye on Roblox, and you would have seen that Roblox, even in recent weeks, has had to take steps to make their platform more safe. I guess for us it is the login of the social media platform that we discerned as the first and most imperative thing to do because it is the login that allows the algorithms to occur, that allows the data to be collected about you when you use the platform and I guess how they can make money out of you essentially.

19:34There was that piece of evidence that came out in a book recently about a 13-year-old girl might take a selfie, might post it on a platform, might take it down a couple of hours later. that triggers the platform to know that she's not feeling particularly good about how she looks the dieting ads the makeup ads the skincare ads all start up that is bone chilling predatory behavior for someone so vulnerable and the person the 13 year old who uploaded a selfie and deleted it never even knows like she can't see the harm it's it's different from seeing porn online or violent content online she never even knows that uploading a photo and deleting it has triggered an algorithm that can harm her mental and physical health.

20:15So for us, it's the logins. It's not to say that we might do other things as the research comes in to say that there'd be public utility in us doing other things. But this is where we decided to start. And for the nine particular platforms impacted, as opposed to the ones that are not currently on the list, we really went to addressing the greatest harm first, the biggest users. So YouTube was originally exempted. I chose to include it when I tabled the rules in the parliament with those bereaved parents in July. That's because YouTube has some of the greatest volume and extent of harm for 13 to 16 year olds online.

20:49So we'll start there and then we'll review it across the next two years. And we're operating in big tech. It's an innovative and agile space. So we'll have to do our best to be innovative and agile as well. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people have said they've used the same word. It's a kind of whack-a-mole game of finding the right platforms that legislation cannot keep pace with the change in technology. Yes, so that's why we've tried to err on the side of targeting features and functions of particular apps rather than ruling apps in and out because the case may be that in 11 days time a new platform pops up that is not named in laws but has the same kind of toxic and unhealthy features and functions so that gives the safety commissioner the ability to keep a roving watch in for me and for us to make decisions.

21:35There is a feeling that there's just a total lack of understanding of how young people work online. So Roblox and other online games, speaking to strangers and connecting with them, that is still a huge risk for young people. And if you're not eliminating that, it feels like there's a massive hole in this legislation. I don't consider it that way. I've been honest from the outside. This isn't a cure. It's a treatment plan. And treatment plans will always evolve as we adapt and address harm and see what works and what doesn't. So we aren't banning the internet here and whilst lots of people would like us to do more drastic measures, we've started with a social media login and for every person that says to me why haven't you included these big elements, someone else is saying to me it is impossible for you to do what you've even set out to do now.

22:24So we'll deliver this on 10 December, we'll watch what happens, we'll see what kind of cultural change it creates, We'll keep working on the response to the Online Safety Act. We'll implement a digital duty of care for Australians next year. We'll keep working. There is also a concern that the likes of Meta have perhaps should have worked faster on this. They also have the money to be able to protect children perhaps more than other platforms that perhaps we don't know about. That fear, that concern that by banning the famous ones that the adults have all heard of, then you're sending children into darker platforms that don't have those controls, that they're being forced to work and go online without that protection.

23:08And that's something that we've been talking about, both the eSafety Commissioner and I, as we've worked closely together on this and also with all the stakeholders that we've been engaging with as we roll this out. So something that the E-Safety Commissioner and I have spoken to and in public before is migratory patterns. So platforms have agreed to inform the E-Safety Commissioner where they see migratory patterns. And she also has the ability to summons, request information. We've bulked up those powers so that she has the ability to get the information that she needs to make those decisions and to provide me with advice.

23:41So I made a joke when we did a press conference with the Prime Minister that if the kids end up on LinkedIn, we're going to have a look at LinkedIn. LinkedIn's currently exempt as a professional networking platform but if we see online harm start to emerge there because that's where they've ended up as a result of being locked out of platforms they use now we'll have a look at it that's why these laws have to be agile and dynamic and as for do they go to more nefarious or dark places of the internet I mean that's every parent's nightmare that's a nightmare we all live with day-to-day now I say sometimes we can't control the ocean.

24:15You know, there's always going to be drownings in the ocean, but we can police the sharks. These are known predators who have made decisions that have harmed people and have chosen not to act. We can police them. And the policing will look methodical, hopefully, and considered as we move forward. You can also, though, teach people to go in the water at safe period of time than to swim. How much of this should actually be education? There's a lot of money that's been spent on making this legislation work, which could be poured into educating children, and parents. That's right and that's why digital literacy has been part of a holistic approach to trying to improve our response to online safety.

24:51There is no one silver bullet for this, you're right, part of stopping drownings on the beaches is having surf lifeguards. These are the kinds of things that we set up by having good robust digital literacy methods and policies alongside regulation and alongside the supports like Kids Helpline or Lifeline, Beyond Blue, other people that work in this space. You talk about not giving in to intimidation. Have the tech companies been intimidating? Have they made threats or made very clear that they are very anti this ban? I mean, what's the relationship with you and the tech companies? I've had a broad range of experiences in my time since late May when I got the job.

25:33And I think one of the interesting elements of this has been that big tech is largely based overseas and then they have very different setups on Australian shores. So even navigating who is the right person to be talking to, who is the right person to be communicating what needs to be done has been an educational moving feast. But we've persisted and we haven't let them off the hook. And we've said at every step of the way, for example, one thing that I put in place after sort of having a few meetings where it felt like we weren't getting the results we needed, I said the eSafety Commissioner and I will meet you together at the same time so you will have complete confidence that you are not getting two different versions of the same law.

26:14So we shall see and more threats may yet come but it doesn't change what we're going to do which is roll out this law on 10 December. This is, at the end of the day, work to try and save a generation. So it's worth doing.

26:30Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Nobel Prize-winning journalist Maria Ressa, the boss of Google Sundar Pichai, and education activist Malala Yousafzai. Until next time, bye for now.