Brazilian President, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva: I have no relationship with President Trump

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

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1:15Hello, I'm Ioni Wells, the BBC's South America correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met the Brazilian president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, at his presidential residence in Brasilia.

1:58In office since 2023, having previously served as president between 2003 and 2011, the 79-year-old's journey to the very top of the world stage began with humble beginnings as a shoeshine boy whose parents were tenant farmers. After the military coup of 1964 in Brazil, a 19-year-old Lula found employment in a metalworks. It was there that he joined the industry's trade union, and just a decade later, he became a full-time trade unionist and eventually president of the union itself. He would regularly clash with the country's military government and was jailed for organising worker strikes. He used this experience to help set up the Workers' Party in order to move into politics, a decision that would see him eventually rise to become the country's president at the turn of the millennium.

2:45In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, he discusses the impact of US tariffs and how he has never talked to President Trump, as well as oil drilling in the Amazon, the conviction of his predecessor and the current state of international diplomacy. I want that the United Nations should represent the geography, the world geography of the 21st century. The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945, or better saying, The UN that was created in 1945 has nothing to do with the situation today. We have to include other countries. Where is Brazil in the UN Security Council? India, Germany, Japan.

3:23Where are the African countries in the Security Council of the UN? So the UN cannot continue with just five permanent members. And it's necessary that the UN should have more strength to solve conflicts. If it doesn't have strength, it will not have influence in any conflict. They can't have any influence in the Ukraine war, in Israel and Gaza. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. President, thank you for speaking with BBC News today. I want to start with the news of Jair Bolsonaro's conviction. Did you celebrate him being handed a 27-year prison sentence?

4:00No. No, I believe that it's not to be celebrated, the trial that was made by the Supreme Court against a man that made many mistakes. What is really important for people to think clearly is that he was not a man or three men that were on trial. We're talking about people that had irregular behavior. That could be, there was a mistake what they made. and they went against the Constitution of Brazil and hurting the rule of law. They tried a coup d 'etat. They tried to network my death and plot my death and also the plotting the death of the justice of the Supreme Court. And they planned a bomb in the airport in Brazil.

4:44These people developed a lot of disorder in Brazil to avoid my inauguration. So he said I'm trying because of the evidence that were raised. So I don't need to celebrate because Brazil has its longest period of democratic regime in a continuous fashion. This is what we see today. And we need to enjoy democracy, to love democracy, the right to go and come, to respect the others. freedom of speech does not give you the right to offend, to attack, to preach hatred through the networks, through the social media. And so he was on judgment by the crimes he committed, so I would prefer that no one had committed a crime.

5:30And he had all the right to defend himself. He had the innocence presumption, and he was condemned and convicted. And I I hope that he continues to present his defense and trying to prove that he has no guilt, because till now he's the one that's guilty for the attempt of a coup d 'etat in this country to plot the death of the elected president, of the vice president that was elected, and of the chief justice of the Supreme Court, and bring a lot of evil to the country. The victim of the biggest legal lie. These are not words of Jair Bolsonaro or of President Trump. these were your words after you were exonerated following a prison sentence for corruption.

6:12Do you agree with Bolsonaro at all that the judiciary in this country can be political at times? I believe that he was judged by a crime that he committed. There's no politics in this. There's no politics. I was put on trial without having the right to defend myself. I stayed 580 days in prison until today. There's no proof. And the sentence that they gave me is that I committed a crime. It's called undetermined facts. This was showed not good faith. Now, in the case of the president today, you have concrete hard evidence. You have plea bargains. You have concrete documents written by them themselves.

6:55So there's no way for you to try to say that this is a political game. No, this is a procedural, judicial procedure for lack of respect of our Constitution to try to destroy the democratic rule of law in our country with all the possible evidence and with the images, the things that they did wrong. And so there's no politics. There's justice. You agree with Donald Trump that it's important to bring back American jobs and industry, but you think tariffs are the wrong answer. What's the right answer? Well, I believe that the charges and the statements for which President Trump put a super over tariff on Brazil and imposed a tariff, they're eminently political.

7:38There's nothing on trade side. From the trade viewpoint, the U.S. in the last 15 years have enjoyed$410 billion of trade surplus with Brazil. So he took this action due to a political case on Bolsonaro, which I regret profoundly, that the president of another country does not take into account the necessity to respect the sovereignty of another country and the country. And he has to respect the judicial courts and the Supreme Court of other countries. But we'll have to wait a lot still to see what's going to happen. I have the conviction that some things are causing damage to and harm to the U.S.

8:18because inflation will go up, because coffee will become more expensive in the U.S., meat will become more expensive in the U.S., and the American people will pay for the mistakes that President Trump is incurring in its relationship with Brazil. What's the solution instead, though? For any kind of conflict, the best alternative is to sit around a negotiation table and negotiate. Is it from the trade viewpoint? There is negotiation now. If it's the economic viewpoint, we can still negotiate. And if it's the taxation issues, we can negotiate. What we cannot negotiate is the Brazilian sovereignty.

8:54Our democracy and our sovereignty are not negotiable. They're not a negotiation table. You've written articles which you say are to start a dialogue with Donald Trump. Why not just pick up the phone to him? Because they don't want to talk. But he said you can call him any time. But they don't want to talk. What I'm saying, for four months that we're willing to talk, I've been saying that. It's important to remember that when President Trump communicated the taxation on imposing tariffs on Brazil, he didn't communicate in a civilized manner to our heads of states. Why not try to pick up the phone to him?

9:30He just published them in his portal, in his social media. And I found out by the newspapers in Brazil. And so I have my finance minister. I have my minister of industry and development and commerce. I have my foreign affairs ministers trying to talk with the American negotiators. And no one manages to talk because they do not want to talk. They do not want to talk. They don't want multilateralism. They want unilateralism. And so when they want to talk, whenever they wish to talk, we're ready to talk. And so I have my vice president, I have my foreign affairs minister and my finance minister ready, willing to talk.

10:10Now, whenever he wants to talk, I'll be ready. President, can I just confirm one point with you? President Trump has said he's happy to talk any time. Can I just confirm, have you tried to and he's just not picking up or have you not tried to call? I never tried to call because he never wanted to have a conversation. One thing is to talk to the press, and another thing is no one tried to talk with Brazil. What I'm saying to you is that the information on the tariffs, I received it by the media. Not even my foreign affairs ministry received any communique, and neither my industry and commerce ministry received any official communique.

10:46And the tariffs just came, simply like that. And who doesn't want a dialogue, a conversation, not only with me, but with nobody? And so we tried to make a contact many times. We had many meetings and we had many meetings with the U.S. And on May the 16th, we sent a letter demanding a response of the negotiations that were already underway. So to confirm, the reason you haven't tried to call is because he didn't try to call before imposing the tariffs. Is that correct? The reason that we did not call is that the Americans do not want to talk. They believe that they can make their decisions, publish in a newspaper, and that's it.

11:28And then the responsibility comes over our shoulder. No. What we're trying to do is the following. We build a case at the WTO. Now we're presenting another case on Section 301. And we will do reciprocity. And when we leave, we should apply the law of reciprocity. Maybe after that, all that, we can sit around a negotiation table. In a few words, how would you describe your current relationship with President Trump?

12:21countries in the world. Brazil has no litigation whatsoever with any country in the world. We have no litigation. We do not want to litigate with any country. Many nations and leaders who disagree with Donald Trump politically have still built relationships with him. Do you regret that it might have been irresponsible not to, given the situation we're in now? Let me say something. The problem of the U.S. sovereignty, it's their problem. I can't give hunches on President Trump's relations with presidents and leaders of other countries. What I'm concerned is our relationship with Brazil with the U.S.

12:56We have 201 years of diplomatic relations with the U.S. And what I think is strange is that the president, instead of a civilized way to talk with Brazil, he decided to invent a political story. He decided to invent untruth in terms of the trade deficit. And then he said that Bolsonaro is being persecuted, that there's no democracy in Brazil. Brazil has a lot of democracy. We have many articles that are being published today in the U.S. showing that Brazil is serving as an example for democracy in the world. What I said is that if President Trump didn't hear in Brazil what he did in the capital, he also would be on trial because justice is for all.

13:44You have built relationships, as you say, with other world leaders. You went to Russia's World War II anniversary celebrations, for example. Who do you have a better relationship with, President Putin or President Trump? No, with President Putin I had a relationship because he was president in previous times and I also was president of Brazil in previous times. I don't have any relationship with Trump because when President Trump was elected the first time, I was not in the presidency. And now his relation is with Bolsonaro, not with Brazil. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world.

14:44In a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Skull podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

15:23Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:34For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Brazilian President Lula da Silva. We sat down at the Alvarada Palace, his home in Brasilia. a glass modernist masterpiece of a building. At times warm, at times fiery, President Lula flitted between different tones, but each was always expressed with passion. He was particularly animated whenever he talked about democracy, visibly angry at people and organisations he thinks undermine it, visibly proud when talking about institutions he believes uphold it. It's impossible not to feel when talking to him the presence of someone who has been in politics for so many decades.

16:10Okay, let's return to my conversation with Brazilian President Lula de Silva. You say you want a more democratic, united nations. Why not call out the authoritarianism among some of your allies? Russia, China, Iran, these are countries where it has been widely documented that there have been unfair elections, undemocratic elections and human rights abuses too. Let me tell you what I want from the UN. I want that the United Nations should represent the geography, the world geography of the 21st century. The UN today has nothing to do with the UN that was created in 1945. Or better saying, the UN that was created in 1945 has nothing to do with today, the situation today.

16:57We have to include other countries. Where is Brazil in the UN Security Council? India, Germany, Japan. Where are the African countries in the Security Council of the UN? So the UN cannot continue with just five permanent members. That one, the Second World War, the world geography has changed. Geopolitics has changed that too. And it's necessary that the UN should go back and start having more strength to solve conflicts. If it doesn't have strength, it will not have influence in any conflict. They can't have any influence in the Ukraine war, in Israel and Gaza. And with Iran, the UN lacks any decision making because it does not have representation anymore.

17:38The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, they themselves don't respect the UN. They make unilateral decisions when they go on war. What we want is a UN that represents the geopolitics of today and that the countries are present in Africa. We have countries of 230 million inhabitants with 120 million inhabitants. And Brazil has 200 million inhabitants. India has 1 billion and 500 million. These countries have to be in the UN Security Council to help make their decisions. President, you talk about democracy. Why then not condemn Russia for its actions in Ukraine in the same language you've used against Israel, for example?

18:19Why does Brazil happily continue to fund Russia's war in Ukraine by buying Russian diesel? Well, let me say that it's important to have the clarity of what Brazil does. Brazil was the first country to condemn the occupation of Ukraine by Russia. Brazil doesn't finance Russia We buy oil from Russia Because we need to buy oil As China needs to buy And India has to buy oil As Great Britain needs to buy oil And the US has to buy oil Now, if we had had a UN That was functioning well Certainly this war would not have happened There's no one negotiating Because the UN doesn't represent much today if we had a U.N.

19:07function, this war would never have existed. If the U.N. was functioning, we shouldn't have Gaza either. And there's a war. There's no war. There's genocide going on. There's a sophisticated army killing children and women. And even the Jewish people is against that because every time I see in the press street demonstrations against the killing that Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. If you think it's a war, I don't believe it's a war. I think it's a genocide and that it could not continue that way. And that's why I defend this two-state solution. And that's why I defend the Palestinian state to be created, to live in harmony with the Israeli state.

19:48I'd like to talk as well about COP30. Brazil's going to be on the world stage hosting the COP30 climate summit this year. How is your climate leadership consistent? I just wanted to go back to the democracy issue that you raised before. No country in the world not trusted. We're still in democracy. Justice works here. The traditions of power, the legislative power, and the executive branch of power also works. What we want is that we are sovereign in the decision-making process that we're making here in Brazil. So we are the first ones to create the group of friends for peace between Russia and Ukraine.

20:22We were the first ones to propose this idea. We created this group of 13 countries to negotiate, and I tried to talk with the UN. We should visit Zelensky and Putin to say to them that it was necessary to end this war. I talked with Zelensky, I talked with Putin for them to participate in negotiating. We're not the ones that sell arms and weapons to Russia. And for Zelensky, we're not the ones that want more war. I don't want to destroy Russia, and I don't want to destroy Ukraine. I want that both countries live in peace. This is what I want. I want to move on to COP30, where Brazil will be on the world stage hosting the COP30 Climate Summit.

21:01How is your climate leadership consistent with your personal desire to allow oil companies to drill in the Amazon basin? I would like to make it clear that we will organize the best and host the best COP in the history of the COPs. COP was chosen to be held in the Amazon region because I want that the world, instead of talking about the Amazon region, they get to know truly the Amazon region. I want that people that are concerned with the forests should come to Brazil to get to know the forests. It's very easy to hold a COP in Paris or organize a COP in the Amazon region. That's different. I want people to get to know the Amazon.

21:45The International Energy Agency says there shouldn't be any new oil drilling projects to reach net zero by 2050. Are they wrong? Well, first of all, we have to know the need of each country. Brazil is a country that has oil. And possibly we have oil in the Equatorian margin. and we are making surveys and we're following the law and the rules so that we can do the research. If there's oil not there, we're just researching. We have Petrobras. It's a state oil company that has the best technology in deep water prospection for oil. There was no accident or incident with this company, different from the British company that had a problem in the Mexican Gulf.

22:35We never had such a spill here. And if we do have a problem, we will be the ones that are liable and responsible to take care of a problem if it comes. I am totally favorable that there will be a moment that the world will not need any more fossil fuels. But this moment has not come yet. I want to know any country on the planet that is prepared to have an energy transition that is capable to give up fossil fuel. And let me tell you something. It's important for the people to know. Brazil is the country that has the energy matrix that is the cleanest in the world. Ninety percent of the electrical power in Brazil is a clean source of energy.

23:14We have 30 percent of ethanol blended in the gasoline. We have 15 percent of biodiesel blended with diesel oil. Brazil has wind power potential and solar power potential and biomass that no other country in the world has. And so we are making the greatest revolution in the energy transition better than any other country. Briefly, I just want to ask you, yes or no, will you run for election next year in 2026? And do you fear this risks a repeat of the US election where an incumbent who will be nearly 80 years old runs against somebody, a far right populist? Do you risk a repeat of that? I don't know if I'm going to run, because this is not the moment to decide who will decide if I'm going to run for the president.

24:04So basically two factors that will decide my health situation and my party and the political convenience, if I'm going to win the elections or not. But I was elected and I still have one and a half year of my term and I have to govern this country. I still have a lot to do in this one year and a half. And so when I left the country, this country, I had, Brazil had left the hunger map. And now when I came back to power, 33 million were in hunger again. So now we ended with the hunger. This country is growing two years above the world average of economic growth. And the salary mass is growing. The income of the working class is working.

24:42We have the lowest employment rate in our history in the last since 2012. So these are factors that will weigh in the moment that I will have to decide if I'm going to run or not for the elections. It's too early yet and I'll wait for the right moment if I'm going to be the candidate or not.

25:01Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the interim leader of Bangladesh, Mohamed Younis, the former president of Liberia, Ellen Johnson-Seerleaf, and global philanthropist Bill Gates. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:14And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.