In short
Extreme weather is the “new normal,” driven by climate change and worsened by inequality; the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) focuses on forecasting, early warning systems, and global data sharing to protect people. Saulo argues preparedness must be urgent and people-centered, not top-down, and that early warnings are non-controversial.
Guest backgrounds
Professor Celeste Saulo, Argentine meteorologist; Secretary-General of the UN’s World Meteorological Organization since 2024, first woman and first South American to lead the agency.
Key claims
Climate change is the greatest global threat; forecasting and early warnings save lives and reduce social/economic losses; denial by leaders won’t stop WMO’s work; AI can improve forecasts but depends on reliable observing data.
Notable examples
Malawi flood forecasting combining local knowledge with technical WMO guidance; Chad community early-warning delivery; El Niño explained as a hazard with impacts on floods, droughts, and food security; heat waves, wildfires, and flooding in Europe.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMeet Professor Celeste Saulo
1:45 to 3:38
Introduction to Professor Celeste Saulo, her role, and her passion for meteorology.
“People shaping our world from all over the world.”
Understanding Climate Change Threats
3:38 to 6:12
Discussion on climate change as a major global threat and the need for preparedness.
“that is real life, that is real humanity, and that is what I work for.”
Responses to Climate Change Denial
6:12 to 8:01
Celeste Saulo responds to climate change denial and emphasizes the importance of action.
“Those are elements that are well beyond the scientific realm.”
The Role of Weather Forecasting
8:01 to 10:40
Exploration of the vital importance of weather forecasting in adapting to extreme weather.
“I'm so convinced that what we are doing is right.”
Local Community Engagement in Climate Preparedness
10:40 to 13:16
Insights from Celeste on community involvement in climate change resilience.
“become more often, will be more severe, will be more abrupt, and will concentrate and impact much more broadly and severely different communities.”
Challenges of Global Climate Action
13:16 to 14:00
Discussion on the need for investment in climate resilience and addressing global challenges.
“It depends on the country and depends on the vulnerability.”
The Importance of a Human-Centered Approach
14:00 to 15:37
Celeste Saulo emphasizes the need to focus on human welfare in climate discussions.
“It's having a person engaged in a community to preserve the life of his or her kids, elder people to protect them from a flood.”
Navigating Disagreements Between Nations
15:37 to 16:10
Saulo discusses the role of the WMO in fostering agreement amid international disagreements on climate action.
“You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.”
Understanding El Niño and Its Global Impact
16:35 to 19:09
Celeste Saulo explains El Niño's effects on global weather patterns and the importance of preparedness.
“Before we started the interview, Celeste Saulo asked me very politely if I could just speak slowly when I ask my questions.”
Vulnerability and Preparedness in Affected Regions
19:09 to 21:05
Discussion on the most vulnerable regions to El Niño and the needed preparedness measures.
“There is a lot of evidence showcasing the impacts of El Nino on economy, on floods, on droughts, on food security, and several events.”
Show all 12 chapters
AI's Role in Weather Forecasting
21:05 to 24:06
Saulo highlights the transformative impact of AI on weather forecasting and its implications.
“those that are already at risk are the countries under conflict.”
Positivity in the Face of Climate Challenges
24:06 to 26:02
Exploring Saulo's optimism regarding climate action and the importance of taking responsibility.
“in the context of AI and its different applications.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Celeste Saulo:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:31Victoria Gill:or wherever you listen.
1:37Celeste Saulo:Hello, I'm Victoria Gill, the BBC's science correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.
1:52Victoria Gill:I want to get freedom. I like that freedom.
1:55Celeste Saulo:A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.
2:05Victoria Gill:This is a war. The first thing that we want is a war to end.
2:10Celeste Saulo:For this interview, I met Professor Celeste Saulo, Secretary General of the World Meteorological Organization, or the WMO. The Argentine meteorologist took office in 2024, becoming the first woman and the first South American to lead the UN agency. The WMO helps countries to build resilience to weather, climate and water-related hazards by monitoring conditions, improving forecasts and through the global sharing of data and information. Saulo says that her fascination with weather began at school, where she discovered she could apply the science and maths she was learning in the classroom to the world around her.
2:47Celeste Saulo:She tells me that when she took up her role at the WMO, she identified two main threats facing the world today, inequality and climate change. She says the weather extremes we are seeing now are the new normal, which makes the role of forecasting and early warning systems more important than ever. She explains why, for her, the WMO's work is ultimately about safeguarding people.
3:10Victoria Gill:Our job is to make sure that we protect more people, that we prepare them for what is coming. And I think that the need to act is now and we don't have the luxury of losing time. For me, it's human being. It's having a person protected. It's having a person engaged in a community to preserve the life of his or her kids, elder people, to protect them from a flood. that is real life, that is real humanity, and that is what I work for.
3:46Celeste Saulo:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Professor Celeste Saulo.
3:51Victoria Gill:I was a curious girl, and that maybe is what defines a little bit more how I started to engage with weather. I liked mathematics, I liked physics, but they were extremely abstract for me. And then when I discovered that the weather essentially is explained through physics and using the language of mathematics, I said, OK, this is a very nice way to apply something I like into something that you can see. Even though to my parents, you know, it was kind of weird to understand that or to learn that I was choosing to study meteorology in Argentina. But they supported me and that was great.
4:37Celeste Saulo:I was interested to know how much climate change kind of influenced that move and your decisions to become a leader in this element of that world rather than stay in research.
4:49Victoria Gill:Some colleagues started to speak about climate change in the 90s or even before. I was finishing my graduate studies in the University of Buenos Aires. Being at the university in the middle of those debates between those that think that there is a systematic trend in climate and others that consider that it was natural climate variability, and I'm going back into the 80s, 90s, it was a big exposure. I recognise a huge value in those discussions and how I learned from those discussions to bring the ingredients and the relevant and robust information to make sure that whatever you say expressed and or published is well supported by grounded evidence.
5:38Celeste Saulo:When you joined the World Meteorological Organization in 2024, you said climate change is the greatest global threat of our time. Do you still think that?
5:48Victoria Gill:Yes, I am extremely worried. And I think that the WMO has elements to support societies to be better prepared for the current situation and for the expected situation. But unless countries understand that they need to prioritize certain number of actions to be better prepared, it will be very, very hard. And I would say that also we need communities to be aware, to be engaged, to do their part. This is not a top-down approach. It is a collective approach. Those are elements that are well beyond the scientific realm. It's something that deserves a societal kind of agreement on how we are going to deal with this.
6:32Celeste Saulo:What's your response when you hear some global leaders downplaying the threat posed by climate change? President Donald Trump called the public health threat posed by climate change a hoax.
6:43Victoria Gill:How do you respond to that? We cannot convince everyone, but I think that the evidences are there. And we need to take care of the vast majority of the world. When we speak about the WMO, for example, we are working for billions of people at the same time. When we share data, we share knowledge, we share common practices, and we make sure that every forecast reaches as much people as possible. So we will need to be prepared to deal with different leaders that may support or not support the current understanding that we have. But we need to continue doing our job. Our job is to make sure that we protect more people, that we prepare them for what is coming.
7:31Victoria Gill:We do not need to lose our focus. And I think that the need to act is now and we don't have the luxury of losing time.
7:41Celeste Saulo:When you hear those voices of denial or leaders saying that this shouldn't be a priority, How does that affect you and your motivation? Does it spur you on? Does it make you feel like the mission's been damaged?
7:58Victoria Gill:No, no, no. And the opposite, I would say. I'm so convinced that what we are doing is right. There are so mounting evidences that we are experiencing extreme weather that we could have never imagined that we must be even more engaged with preparing the countries to face those. Regardless of individuals' opinions, we now need to be even stronger. You know these heat waves in Europe, they have to cope with that, and we need to prepare them for that. And I'm more convinced than ever in my life, So I will never lose my expectations or my hope in doing something positive for the humanity, you know.
8:51Celeste Saulo:In terms of that extreme weather, I mean, we're seeing so many headlines this summer just in Europe. We've had worsening wildfires, heat waves, flooding. You know, we know that the probability of those extreme events is being driven up by climate change.
9:10Victoria Gill:Is this the new normal? Yes, it is a new no. And we need to make sure that we are prepared to deal with that. This is not just on the news. It's part of the real life. And we need to be prepared for that.
9:26Celeste Saulo:And how do we adapt? And what's the role, I guess, the role of weather forecasting in that adaptation?
9:33Victoria Gill:The role of weather forecasting has never been more important than now. When I read about the wildfires, for example, and I imagine the med service I was running before coming here, where we had some wildfires not so extreme or extended as we are witnessing now. I was wondering how I was going to prepare my med service to provide the right elements or decision-making elements for those that need to manage the fires. So these extreme white fires put us more responsibility into improving our forecasting tools to support the brigades, to support the communities. And these are very specific tools in the forecasting arena.
10:25Victoria Gill:So I believe that we will need to develop new services within the med services and within the hydromet services to be prepared for this type of weather and impacts that will become more often, will be more severe, will be more abrupt, and will concentrate and impact much more broadly and severely different communities. So the role of weather forecasting has never been more important than today. How do countries prepare for this increasing extreme weather?
11:07Celeste Saulo:And do you think governments are investing enough in that preparedness and resilience?
11:13Victoria Gill:It's not enough for the pace of these extremes, how they are increasing and being more frequent and being more severe. And of course, the investment in the least developed world and in the developing world is much less than in the developed world.
11:32Celeste Saulo:You focused a lot and you've talked about the sort of combined threats of inequality and climate change. And, you know, this is a global issue, but some places and communities of people are more vulnerable. I know you went to Malawi and Chad recently. What did you see there? In Malawi, I could witness how from the med service to the local community, they were working together to be prepared for flood forecasting and also combining the
12:06Victoria Gill:local knowledge about the wind, the cloudiness where they expected something to happen and the technical knowledge coming from the med service. And that combination allowed the communities to react with respect on the knowledge provided by both, by the local and the technical person. And then it came with a very nice experience where the local people were surprised to see that the forecasters knew two weeks in advance what was going to happen. In Chad, again, you have a lot of vulnerabilities, but also you have the med service engaged at the level of a community to make sure that the early warning gets the people that are more at risk.
12:55Victoria Gill:And then you realize that it's not impossible to change that. It's not impossible to support these communities because they are engaged. it's not that you're coming from the outer space to share with them a magic solution it's that you work with them to find together which is the right solution for their current level of vulnerability exposure and risk and hazard
13:21Celeste Saulo:why do you think then some leaders are still putting their energy into downplaying the threats of climate change rather than putting those sort of global connections into action and investing where it can really help people?
13:38Victoria Gill:I don't understand why because when you have something to do and you are not doing that that is something I don't understand and we have several studies provide the objective measure that for one dollar you invest in early warnings you can get up to $10 or$15 on top of that. It depends on the country and depends on the vulnerability. But for me, it's not value for money. For me, it's human being. It's having a person protected. It's having a person engaged in a community to preserve the life of his or her kids, elder people to protect them from a flood. That is real life. That is real humanity.
14:26Victoria Gill:And that is what I work for.
14:27Celeste Saulo:Have we forgotten about taking care of people?
14:30Victoria Gill:Yes, definitely. Yes. We say people-centered approach, but you need to walk the talk. The debates are becoming a little bit fragmented, sometimes hate speech.
14:43Celeste Saulo:What role do you think you and your organization play when there is all of that disagreement between different nations?
14:53Victoria Gill:Well, I try to find the agreement, you know, that's part of my work also. And I think that WMO has been successful so far in finding the agreements and building from where we agree on top of what are the elements where we do not agree. And I would say that early warnings are not controversial at all. So that is a building block. and data sharing is not controversial at all because you cannot forecast what will happen in Argentina, where I come from, without knowing the data from Chile. That's impossible.
15:31Celeste Saulo:Weather and climate don't have any borders.
Read the full transcript
15:33Victoria Gill:No borders at all.
15:37Celeste Saulo:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.
16:07Celeste Saulo:We'll be right back. Visit coldwatercreek.com, shop new arrivals and save 15 % on purchases$75 or more with code iHeart. With the new Schwab Teen Investor account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com. Before we started the interview, Celeste Saulo asked me very politely if I could just speak slowly when I ask my questions. And I was immediately overwhelmed by monolingual guilt. This is the first woman from South America to lead the World Meteorological Organization, and I'm grilling her in the only language I have a reasonable command of.
16:54Celeste Saulo:Regardless of any language barrier, though, Celeste is unrelentingly optimistic. She knows better science and improved forecasts can save lives. But I've watched the wheels of UN processes turn infuriatingly slowly in the face of a rapidly changing climate, and I find myself wanting the senior UN scientist to admit to at least some frustration, because some leaders are still arguing, even denying the threat posed by climate change. Celeste doesn't seem frustrated though, she just wants to get on with the job. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Professor So Celeste Saulo, your organisation, the WMO, announced that this year there's an El Nino taking place.
17:35Celeste Saulo:So this is a weather, a climate pattern that pushes up global temperatures. First of all, can you just explain what is El Nino? Why is this an El Nino year?
17:43Victoria Gill:Yes, certainly El Nino years come with certain global patterns affecting both temperature and precipitation across the world. We know some patterns, but at the same time, every El Niño is different from one another. And this is expected to be a strong El Niño. We already know that by August and September, October, we will have very large anomalies in the sea surface temperature in the equatorial Pacific. It's using that information for anticipatory action.
18:19Celeste Saulo:It struck me that it was big news, particularly this year. I've been a science journalist for a long time and El Niño sort of used to be a little bit of a technical or meteorological story that weather and science people were interested in. Now it's a global story. Why is it so important to share that with the world and share all of that information and forecast ahead?
18:43Victoria Gill:We are not speaking about El Niño. We are speaking about hazards associated with El Niño that have social and economic impacts. And those that need to take decisions need to react to avoid those social and economic impacts, because we cannot avoid rains, lack of rain or rising temperatures. We can tell the world that this is happening. And those that have to take actions need to take actions to avoid the impacts or to minimize the impact. There is a lot of evidence showcasing the impacts of El Nino on economy, on floods, on droughts, on food security, and several events. So it's about how we can showcase this El Nino as El Nino where the society was better prepared and this preparation allowed them to mitigate the losses in general.
19:40Celeste Saulo:And some parts of the world will be affected more than others. Can you paint a picture of where is most vulnerable and what sort of preparedness you would really like to see being driven by this information?
19:57Victoria Gill:Well, for example, let's speak about some areas in Africa where you already have impressive amounts of vulnerability and exposure. So what you need is just to make sure that first you gather all the relevant stakeholders. Let's say if you are concentrated in food security, agriculture, let's make sure that the Ministry of Agriculture, the ministry where the med service is reporting. The decision makers are aware of the information and then risk managers as well. And then they prepare a plan, a contingency plan. They put resources ahead. They move the people. They make decisions. This will happen, will affect the West courts of Africa.
20:48Victoria Gill:It will also affect India. And of course, Indonesia is also being affected now already. We are building certain scenarios for the most vulnerable countries to make sure that we can prepare in advance. If you ask me about what kind of people or communities are more exposed, those that are already at risk are the countries under conflict.
21:14Celeste Saulo:And I want to talk to you a bit about the technology that's behind the power of that forecasting. Artificial intelligence is something that forecasters have talked about a lot, the use, the power of that technology to improve forecasting. How much of a role is that playing when it comes to the strength of those forecasts, the accuracy of those forecasts and how far ahead you can forecast and allow people to prepare?
21:43Victoria Gill:Well, AI, of course, is revolutionizing the world of weather forecasting as it is revolutionizing everything. It's being used already. For example, many lead centers in global forecasts are already running AI-driven models. This is already happening. AI also is helping us to combine different sources of information and accelerate the translation of complex forecasts into actionable instructions. And that is also something that expedites the decision-making process. So, yes, AI is bringing a lot. You mentioned before the story about Malawi. Malawi is running an AI-driven model that is so cheap in terms of computational resources that can be run in the personal computer of a person in just a few seconds.
22:40Victoria Gill:So that brings more tools. But something I always mention about AI and particularly AI applied to forecasting systems is that we see advantage in AI models because they are trained thanks to data that have been taken worldwide for many, many, many years. So the training material is great. And we need leaders not to forget that if the training material gets worse, that's translated means that if we don't have enough data, the forecast will not be better. Be it AI-driven, be it dynamical models, it will get worse. So we need to always remember that the observing system is the crucial piece behind the AI-driven technology.
23:40Victoria Gill:So, yes, we have powerful tools on AI. They have been trained using data that has been collected for many, many, many years, reliable data. and we need to continue along those lines. What AI brings? Accessibility, affordability and reliability only if the data is reliable.
24:05Celeste Saulo:There's lots of pros and cons that get discussed constantly in the context of AI and its different applications. But of course, AI data centres are very hungry for energy, for water. that's something to think about too in the context of its use.
24:22Victoria Gill:Yes, of course. When we speak about sustainability, we speak about all these elements. So there is always a balance between the good elements of a new technology, the not so good elements of that new technology.
24:37Celeste Saulo:I get a real sense of positivity and optimism from you in the face of confronting in your everyday working life the challenges posed by what you yourself have called the greatest global threat, climate change. What makes you feel hopeful in your role?
24:57Victoria Gill:I understand that the world is not only about love and hope. It's about work. It's about science. It's about affordability and about rights and about people. But I think that in that sense, I have the idea that the good of humanity is something that has to move you ahead and not the individual interests.
25:26Celeste Saulo:There are many people who feel engaged with and knowledgeable about the state of the climate, but feel a sense of pessimism and doom or a lack of control. What would you say to those people?
25:40Victoria Gill:I would say that if they are knowledgeable about climate and they understand what we are exposed to, they have the responsibility to do something. Staying at home and being pessimistic is not the choice.
26:02Celeste Saulo:Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Sumant Sinha, the founder of India's renewable energy company Renew, executive director of UNICEF Catherine Russell, and film director Rohan Kanawada. Until next time, bye for now.
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26:58Victoria Gill:We face the greatest challenges of our time.
27:02Celeste Saulo:challenges that test our limits there is a place where we can find answers where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities where innovation can spark real change and our actions can push our world forward Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact
From the publisher
“[This weather] is a new norm, and we need to make sure that we are prepared to deal with that…these extreme wildfires put more responsibility onto improving our forecasting tools to support the brigades, to support communities.”
Victoria Gill speaks to Professor Celeste Saulo, head of the World Meteorological Organisation, about the extreme weather events making headlines in recent months. She says the wildfires, heatwaves, droughts and flooding are the new normal and the ability to forecast these events are more important than ever.
The WMO helps countries build resilience to weather, climate and water related hazards by monitoring conditions, improving forecasts and the global sharing of data and information.
Saulo took office in 2024, becoming the first woman and South American to lead the UN agency. She explains how climate change is one of the biggest threats facing the world today.
The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the BBC, including episodes with Sumant Sinha the founder of India’s renewable energy company ReNew, executive director of Unicef Catherine Russell, and film director Rohan Kanawada. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presenter: Victoria Gill Producer: Cordelia Hemming Editor: Farhana Haider
Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.
(Image: Celeste Saulo. Credit: Photo by World Meteorological Organization)