Cellist Sheku Kanneh-Mason: Obsession is a driver

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

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1:16Hello, I'm John Wilson, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met the British cellist Sheku Kanemason in BBC Broadcasting House.

1:58While still a student, he performed to an audience of more than a billion people at the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, immediately becoming one of the most recognisable classical performers in the world. You're going to hear more about that performance and how he dealt with becoming a household name at just 19 years old. He also describes to me the joy of playing music with his seven siblings, all of whom are talented musicians and performers. Of Antiguan descent, he's attracted headlines for his criticism of the song Rule Britannia. It celebrates British imperial glory and is very difficult for his family to hear, he tells me.

2:35During our conversation, he shares his obsession with learning increasingly difficult concertos, like those of the Soviet composer Shostakovich. He explains the need to understand the historical and political context of the music that he performs. Kanye Mason attended government-funded state schools and he warns against cutting music funding. Yes, and maybe it must come from an idea that music is not a valuable subject, which I believe to not be the case, because I think that the underestimation and underinvestment in our children and young people would be one of the greatest shames and losses.

3:12Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Sheikou Kanemason.

3:22Many people, of course, will be aware of the Kanemason family history and the influence of your parents in particular. But I'm going to start by taking back two generations to your paternal grandfather, Arnold Mason. Why was he such an influential figure for you? He was always incredibly supportive. My Antiguan grandparents were living in London, and so we'd see them very often in school holidays. And they'd also come to stay with us in Nottingham. And I have lots of memories of practising, and particularly my granddad, standing in the doorway or sort of lurking and humming along. And it was always such like a constant and genuine love of music that he had.

4:03And that enthusiasm I found to be very inspiring as a child. But he had grown up in Antigua. Big classical music fan. What, from his early years? He was, yeah, always really fascinated and in love with classical music. And it's funny now going to Antigua and chatting to our uncles who knew him when they were all young. And they were sort of baffled by his love and fascination with this music that they didn't know or take to. But he was just, yeah, really drawn to this world of music. Because traditionally the rhythms of Antigua would be soca or calypso and very different kind of music. Did he play?

4:40He did play the violin a little bit in his youth, but not to a high level. And he would encourage you all the time as well? All the time. Yes. Yeah. He was a great lover of composers like Rachmaninoff for the piano and for the cello. Vorjak, the cello concerto, who's always telling me he wants to hear me play that. And he was a great lover of chamber music and in particular Schubert's Trout Quintet. There was a particular documentary made by Christopher Newpen in the late 60s, 1960. Yes, yeah, exactly. Of the sort of preparations and a performance at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London of five, at the time, superstar soloists of their individual instruments coming together.

5:18Young characters as well. That's the other thing. When you look at that, you realise that those people are in their mid-twenties. They're your age. Yeah, I guess in their youth, but very much at the height of their careers in many ways as well. We definitely were thrilled by seeing the way they would rehearse and perform and interact with the music as children. And at that time, we were all starting to learn our various instruments and actually wanted to learn the particular instruments that would form that quintet. In the end, that didn't happen because double bass was a bit too big in my parents' opinion.

5:48And Isater, who's our pianist, was also playing the viola. And so there was never a combination where we could, as a family, play that trial quintet. But we loved listening and watching and playing bits for fun. And what happens when it is siblings playing chamber music together? What does that do for the dynamic, the sense of understanding? I think there is a wealth of common knowledge, understanding. It's really nice and often very easy. A lot of that is because we've spent a lot of time playing together, listening to music together and talking about music together. We've grown up kind of doing it together.

6:19In your book, the very first words on the first page are, I am a cellist. Can you remember the first time that you picked up this instrument and the effect that it had on you? My dad played the cello in his youth. And so we had a cello at home. And when I said that I wanted to learn, I took out his cello, which was far too big, of course. And I have a memory of looking down at the instrument at the fingerboard and drawing the bow across the string and feeling the instrument really close to me physically and enjoying that sensation. The resonance. The resonance, yeah, because it really sits sort of within you.

6:54And that's a really beautiful feeling. and the vocal quality of this instrument is something that I found to be something that I wanted to be able to produce. You've been playing violin before that? I was playing the violin and my mum was teaching me and my older sister Eyestone and grandma, my brother, were playing the violin and the piano so it was natural to also follow and do what they were doing. I don't have much memory of playing the violin to be honest but I don't think I got on very well. Was it expected of you that you just learn an instrument at a young age? Yes, definitely. I don't really There was no choice in this special.

7:25Yeah, I don't remember the choice, but I do remember seeing a youth orchestra in Nottingham. We have an Albert Hall, which is not the Royal Albert Hall in London, but the Nottingham Albert Hall. Not as big, but just as special to me. And I remember seeing a youth orchestra and being really excited by the cello section. I think at that age, it could have been, I just wanted to play a bigger and cooler instrument than my older siblings. Or maybe there was something special in the sound that I was really drawn to. Is that it as well, that the cello is cooler than the violin or the piano? That's certainly true.

7:53I'm sure others would dispute that. I think there is a personality to the instrument that I find more suited to me. You sit down and you kind of, it kind of comes from, I don't know, from the floor or beneath often musically, rather than singing from on top, which I found less natural for me. It underpins a lot of the music, doesn't it? But can also fly. But can also, yeah, have its wonderful flying moments. Jacqueline Dupre, of course, is the cellist in that 1968 documentary. at the time she was already a big star having recorded the Elgar Cello Concerto four years earlier I think when she was just 20 years old was she a role model for you when you first started playing the cello she was the role model I was in awe of her playing I think this commitment to every note and this utter kind of conviction with which she plays was something that I was incredibly drawn to did you study her and emulate her then I definitely watched lots of videos and tried to get that vibrato and learned from what she was doing.

8:57I think it's also a very individual way of playing that she has. And so whilst I learned some specific things, I also learned just from the approach to playing. Another of your musical heroes is the Russian cellist Mislav Rostropovich. Do you remember the first time you heard him, heard a recording of him? Yes, I do. He has a few different recordings of Rachmaninoff's vocalese, But there's one, I think it's the second earliest, and the sound and intensity of vibrato and range of expression was something incredibly gripping. Rostropovich was taught by the Soviet composer Shostakovich, who wrote both of his cello concertos for Rostropovich to play.

9:41In 2016, of course, you won the BBC Young Musician of the Year playing the Shostakovich first cello concerto. Why that one? Why that? Such a challenging piece for a competition, isn't it? It is challenging, for sure. It was a piece I was obsessed with. And I think that obsession is the great driver for being able to overcome the sort of technical challenges that are in the piece. There are lots of things in the first concerto that were very new technically for me. And so I think learning that developed all of those. Can I suggest that because of your obsession with Shostakovich, it was when you were a teenager.

10:18This is quite angsty music, possibly the sort of music that would appeal to a teenager. Were you a rebellious teenager or an angsty teenager? I was... I find it hard to imagine, if you were. I wasn't. I was kind of, and still am quite quiet, and a lot of what I feel and think is internal and can come out in the music. But I think a lot of Shostakovich's music, a lot of the exploration is inward, which I was drawn to definitely as a teenager and still am. In an interview, your mum said that you were the naughtiest of the seven children. As a child, when I was like a child, I think now when I'm older, that's not so much the case.

10:55But certainly, yeah, as a child, I was always like running around and climbing on things. And if there was a sign or an indication that I wasn't allowed to do something, that was often a motivation. I was then even more fascinated to do it, to climb on that, to go over that fence that says... It's that challenge again, isn't it? Yes, yes, maybe. You know, the Shostakovich Scheller Concerto has become that bookcase that you're not supposed to climb up. Yeah. And I think it's because until I've climbed it, I don't know what the danger is and what it feels like to do it. So that was often my approach.

11:28Shostakovich was denounced by Stalin and Rostropovich himself was exiled in the 1970s from the Soviet Union. And both of those musicians are associated with political dissent, with resistance, with protest. How aware do you have to be of that history to understand the music, to play this music, do you think? You do have to be very aware because this is what is in the music. To know and to understand the feelings of resistance and often of desperation, of fear, is important in order to get to the core of what this music is saying. It's often a very dark and uncomfortable place to spend a lot of time.

12:06I remember practicing before I was recording the second concerto of Shostakovich. I had about a month and a half off without any concerts. And so I was just practicing this piece and I was really getting into it. And I'd have to really take moments in the middle of the day to go for a walk and breathe because it was so consuming and such a dark and terrifying place to spend a lot of time with. It has like a genuine effect, of course, and should on the performer and on the audience. In 1968, on the very day that Soviet tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia, the BBC Proms that night, Rostropovich played Wojciech's Cello Concerto.

12:45It was a hugely emotional, powerful moment, apparently. Yes, that is a performance that would have, of course, would have been special. And Rostropovich has such a wonderful way of communicating emotion in a way that really feels open and generous. I think you've played that Wojciak cello concerto at the proms yourself. I have. 2021, I think it was. What's it like walking out at the proms as a solo performer? It's one of the biggest thrills that I've had. It's an amazing arena. And to walk out into a space that you really feel that the love and celebration of music is so much at the heart of that festival.

13:23And as a spectacle, it's quite... You're literally surrounded by people. Yeah, it's quite overwhelming and very special. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time?

14:09The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

14:53For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Sheikou Kanemason. Although he's been performing in public since he was a child and has been famous for all of his adult life, Sheku is a remarkably quiet and shy young man. His beloved 300-year-old cello remained close to hand throughout our conversation and I got the distinct impression that he felt far more comfortable playing some Bach for me than talking to me about his life and career. Nevertheless, Sheku was a fascinating and utterly charming interviewee. OK, let's return to my conversation with Sheku Kanemason. You've talked about the song Rural Britannia, which is sung every year at the last night of the proms, and you've said that it is something that makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable.

15:38And you said it shouldn't be sung at the proms anymore. Now, there was a backlash in the press, and particularly online, when there was some really vitriolic racist abuse directed at you. I mean, that must have been a huge shock, wasn't it? A huge shock because it's very disproportionate to my comments on it. I felt I was asked my feelings and I gave my honest opinion, but not, I also didn't expect something. I don't know, my honest and genuine and I didn't think very forceful opinion on it would be responded to with such anger and aggression. And that's very telling in itself. How did you cope with that?

16:18I mean, it's not very nice, but it's also, I wasn't affected very much in the long term, I guess, because in a way it was surprising and shocking, but also not unfamiliar, those kinds of attitudes. But it's sad and a shame too. at the 2023 proms when Royal Britannia was sung, you went backstage, it was very difficult for you to listen to, and you say that all of your family, of course, were in the auditorium, they couldn't leave, and you say that most of them were in tears by the end, all of them miserable and frightened. I mean, that's a terrible thing to read. Was it the lyrics and the tone of the song or the way that it was being sung by the people around?

17:04I mean yeah I wasn't in the auditorium because I didn't want to be quite frankly but it's yeah it's the it's the lyrics I think as British people and I feel British and my family do with not so distant ancestors who were enslaved singing a song that has lyrics that says that yeah Britain's never never will be slaves yeah it's that's very and sung with such determination and joy that's really it's really difficult to to hear and uncomfortable to be in the in the presence of knowing where we have come from and also feeling British and then also feeling excluded and sort of excluded in that moment is a shame and I think the proms is a celebration of music that's what I believe it it is and and should be and there are so many wonderful things about music and about British music that we could easily celebrate in the place of of something that I think is not necessary and actually actively harmful to a lot of people You say it's an embarrassing reminder of a Britishness that celebrates imperial glory and subjugation.

18:07And then you say that most musicians and those who decide the repertoire would dearly love it to be left behind. Most musicians, have you had this conversation? Yes, with a lot, of course. And a lot of musicians, when I was having a lot of backlash about it, were reaching out and showing their support in lovely ways. And there are, yeah, I'm not attacking the problems and I'm not attacking the musicians. And actually, yeah, I've been very kindly supported by them. And that makes it doubly as confusing. You also performed famously at the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. And an audience of over a billion people, I think, worldwide.

18:45You became a global solo star in that moment. That must have felt like a whole new level of fame for you. Definitely. yes i guess to be recognized outside of the circles of people specifically interested in and closely interested in classical music was a new thing was that welcome attention or was that quite hard to deal with at first i mean yeah some nice nice things i'm not so and definitely at that that time i wasn't so like constantly conscious of that i think it very much helped that i was still a full-time student and so i remember the morning of that performance i was picked up from my student halls and then dropped off back at my student halls afterwards and was at the academy the next day for my cello lesson and that sort of that side of things uh was enough to be occupied by that such that the outside things weren't really they don't take so much of my focus that's really interesting because i was wondering how you have to navigate that sort of level of fame whether you seek advice from other musicians but really it was just about going and becoming a student again i mean that's quite grounding isn't it absolutely yeah absolutely Don't get too big for your boots.

19:52Yeah, and really, really important. I think this sense of development and getting closer to the music and closer to being able to play this instrument gives me that sense of purpose and something to really focus on and be obsessed with. I find that really helpful. But also, that's just what I want to be doing and thinking about. I'm constantly learning. Still learning. Yes, I hope so. Does it feel like a pressure now that, you know, there's a lot riding on you in terms of the future of classical music, in terms of record sales for a record label, in being a role model for younger musicians as well.

20:29Does that feel like a responsibility? Responsibility, yes. Not so much a pressure. I want to be able to perform this music as truly and as well as possible. And so I believe that as long as I'm focused on that. And of course, I understand there are things outside of just playing the cello and performing, but that is absolutely the main focus and drives everything else. You and all of your siblings attended the Junior Royal Academy of Music every Saturday, I think. So, I mean, was that a trip from Nottingham to London every weekend? Yes. Yeah. I remember very early Saturday mornings, getting up at 5.30 to get the 6.30 train to London.

21:09And then a day of cello lesson, piano lesson, orchestra, theory, choir. Yeah. Huge dedication. Yeah, but it was the best day of my week. Was it? Because it was like, yeah, a day of being around other very enthusiastic young musicians, inspiring young musicians and great teachers. You've got perfect pitch, obviously. And you've always known that, I think, haven't you? Yes. That sense of music within you. Yes. I mean, I was lucky to have music all around me from a young age. And it felt like also something that was very much inside me from a young age as well. I mean, obviously you are innately talented, as are your siblings, but what accounts for that huge success that you've had as a family?

21:50The fact that everybody has this gift. Yeah, I don't know. I think the love for it is such a big factor in it all and has to be. And also the ideas of dedication and hard work. That can take you so far. That can take you to the local talent show. So what does it take to get on to the next level, to be a world-class musician as you are now? It takes so many things. It takes a constant interest in exploring further and an understanding of really trying to get the most out of every moment that you are with it. It takes luck. It takes great teachers. And that innate talent we were talking about. Yes.

22:32Yeah. Which I, yeah, it's tricky to describe. You became famous as a family, but now you are a global solo star. Is there sibling rivalry? No, there's not. Not within music, for sure. With everything else, though. Board games. Yeah, we have so many competitions of other things, but with music, that was never the case. One thing that you talk very passionately about is music education in state schools. and you of course were lucky enough to have attended a school with what sounds like an amazing musical education department and the provision of musical instruments but you witnessed big cuts that happened not long after you won the BBC Young Musician of the Year.

23:15How did those cuts impact the musical education in the school that you went to? Yeah both the primary school and secondary schools that I went to. Music was such a big part of the school community and that was a wonderful thing and it meant that there was such a feeling of togetherness and celebrating the excellence that can come from instrument learning and school orchestras and bands and choirs and performances. And I found that a very inspiring environment to be in and I think that was the case for a lot of the people I went to school with. And these are all your arguments for music to be part of the core curriculum.

23:50Yes. Which is not anymore. There is not an obligation on most schools, state schools in the country to provide that musical education. Yes. And maybe it comes from, it must come from an idea that music is not a valuable subject, which I believe to not be the case because of those long-term goals of dedication and focus that come from learning an instrument are incredible. And if there's not a concert coming up with rehearsals or you're not heading into the studio, do you just play every day because you love this instrument so much? I do. I do. Do you have to play every day just to keep your hand in?

24:21Or is it just about the love of the sound of it? Yes, I do have to play every day and practice every day. But also I really want to. And there are, for example, last night I was together with my brother and a friend. We were reading some Handel trio sonatas because this is great music. We want to investigate it. We're not going to perform it necessarily, but we want to play this music. And I really enjoy doing that. And so for me, yeah, it's about my love of it. And of course, I'm professional about it. And I know that I have concerts and stuff to prepare for. And there is a responsibility in that.

24:53But that's not the main motivation.

25:02Thank you very much for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. If you enjoyed today's programme, you can listen to the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. And you can hear more in-depth interviews with leading artists and creative people with me, John Wilson, on the BBC's This Cultural Life. Until the next time, bye for now.