Chloé Zhao, director: I was an outsider

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:15Hello, I'm BBC presenter Anita Rani and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met the Chinese movie director Chloe Zhao in London. Zhao made history in 2021 when, at the age of just 39, she became the first woman of colour and, at the time, only the second woman ever to win the Best Director Award at the Oscars.

2:08Born in Beijing in 1982, her father was a successful steel executive and her stepmother, the well-known Chinese comedy actress Song Dandan. Despite speaking little English, Zhao travelled to England to study at the age of 14 in the mid-1990s and later moved to the US to study political science in Massachusetts. She then enrolled in a graduate film programme in New York in 2010 under the artistic direction of the African-American filmmaker Spike Lee. Just five years after her Oscars triumph for Nomadland, Zhao is making headlines once again as the director of the critically acclaimed movie Hamnet, a dramatisation about the son of the English playwright William Shakespeare.

2:52It recently won two Golden Globe Awards, including one for Best Drama Movie. In this interview, she reveals the connection she has to her work, including Hamnet, as well as reflecting on her success as an outsider in Hollywood. I wasn't given the mainstream opportunity, the first two films. And I always said, if you're trying to get to the top floor of a house and then they're not letting you up and you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up or you can walk out of the house. But then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house.

3:31I have to cut down the trees. I have to get people to help. I have to build a foundation. It's going to take time and you have to weather some bigger storms. but then when it's finished it's your house.

3:45Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Chloe Zhao. Chloe, you won Best Director at the Oscars for Nomadland. What did that win mean to you? When you were a little girl or just even being in film school, you look at that happening on the television and I usually watch the Oscars with a pint of Haagen-Dazs ice cream. Mango sorbet was my choice. I used to watch it in my 20s every year. And you don't think it's so far from your reality because I didn't know anybody and I didn't, you know, I was an immigrant. So then one day you wake up with that nomination and really, I mean, since we're on the conversation of community, I started, again, knowing no one, and Sundance Institute, Film Independent, FP, you know, all these labs welcomed me.

4:42I met Ryan Coogler there, you know, I met David Lowery, Mario Heller, a lot of these filmmakers that are supporting each other right now. and from these institutes and then the festivals, Cannes, Venice, Sundance, you know, Telluride, and these festivals have supported me for all my films. And when you go to these festivals, that's your community right there. So then in that moment I go, I guess I was held. Yeah. Yeah, so you feel really nice. It's extraordinary. So just to remind people, Chloe is only the second woman to have won Best Director Oscar but also the first non-white woman and just to remind everyone Chinese immigrants to America as a woman going into the rarefied world of filmmaking to win an Oscar it's extraordinary what does it take to do that like how I mean of course the work speaks for itself you know your art is your art and it's extraordinary but you know to get into that world is uh so like I do think as women we we value collaboration and again community more than what the I think sometimes the dominant culture or saying like you gotta do it on your own and I have always been you know collaborating not just with my crew and cast but the places I go into yeah you know when I went into the Pine Ridge Reservation that whole community opened themselves up to me and when we couldn't get funding we tried for two years we couldn't get funding for the film i had in mind so we ended up with like a hundred thousand dollars shoestring budget and so was the writer the first film songs my brother saw me and then the writer was made with eighty thousand dollars and and it was that community in south dakota opened up everything to us we had access everywhere you know to every big events and we were able to film everywhere so the production value and the access and what's on the screen went so much beyond what money can buy and nomadland again the nomadic community opens themselves up to us in ways i didn't even think was possible you know and so and making hamnet i felt very held by the community here in the uk you know we were we were supported we were had access to places and we had um it really kind of you know director sounds very kind of singular but a captain of a ship will tell you if you want to live you need a good crew any and they trust you their trust is trust right they do because i i do think that um i also have a trust in something bigger that is guiding us there is a fine line between being in control and preparing everything and making sure everything is going to produce like we want it to be.

7:48And then also there's another half of the equation, which is do the work to create the container. So when we actually are in it, then do the work of letting it go and allowing everyone to bring forth what they're bringing forth and trust that sometimes something happens that is so different than what I envisioned. And you have to look at that and go, there is a message there and you have to be unsaid, try to decipher what that message is and try to follow that because you fight against it. Then there's a chance you lose that extra thing, that mystery that's bigger than you. This is lovely. This is very good, profound life advice.

8:29I was going to say to you, what advice would you give to any sort of creative who feels like they're an outsider? How do they get in? Of that. Yeah. That is more, you know, because I wasn't given the mainstream opportunity, the first two films, I just had this, people had asked me during that time, and I always said, you know, if you're trying to get to the top floor of a house, and then they're not letting you up, and you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up, or you can walk out of the house and you see like, whoa, there is a whole undiscovered countries out there. But then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house.

9:16And then can you talk to your ego and go, well, I'm not going to be able to rise up. You know, I'm not going to have all these convenience. I have to cut down the trees. I have to get people to help. I have to build a foundation. It's going to take time. And you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it's finished, it's your house. It's your house. It's your house, ladies. Chloe, that is so beautiful. That is perfectly explained. I love that. And I will be regaling that to lots of people for the rest of my life. I interviewed Chloe and she told me that we need to build our own house.

9:50And I can relate to that. What I also love about you is that you go from Nomadland to Marvel, Hamna to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This is, I cannot wait. What can you tell us about it? I was 19, 20 and I was at Mount Holyoke, it's a women's college. And me and my roommates and people in the house I was staying at, the dorm, we would get together every Tuesday or Thursday. And it will be like a ritual of gathering of the sisters. To watch Buffy. And we'll watch Buffy. Yeah. And so it is about found family. You know, and I still think that, especially in the modern age, where the traditional family, sometimes even like miles away, you know, it's just a different thing that we can't always rely on, like we did back in the days.

10:45So this idea of a found family, that's what Buffy is about. And then the monsters and the demons and the vampires are being a mirror, an archetype to what's inside of us. So every week we either learn to slay it or learn to work with it or learn to love it.

11:10You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

11:17If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

12:12expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

12:28I'm a huge admirer of Chloe Zhao's work. Where to begin? Her cinematography, her use of colour and of light, and in particular, the stories she chooses to focus on. Those who are rarely in the spotlight. So I wanted a fangirl moment to meet the woman who, as an outsider to the film industry, has gone on to dominate it, becoming the second woman and the first woman of colour to win Best Director at the Oscars. This is a huge achievement and she did it all with integrity. I have so much respect for her. Lots of what Chloe spoke to me about will stay with me long after we got together to discuss her latest film, Hamnet, particularly how if you don't feel welcome in a space leave it and create your own so let's now return to my conversation with Chloe Zhao congratulations on this movie I saw it all I can say to you is it's still in me I'm happy to hear that yeah yeah so let's let's talk about it Hamna why did you choose to make this movie I think there were two things that came jumped off the pages of Maggie O 'Farrell's book Incredible book.

13:36One is this woman and her relationship with the forest, with nature, with Yang Xin. Her as a woman, as a mother, as a lover, as a storyteller herself. And that's connected to a very old and ancient lineage. And then there is an artist who has no other choice but to express himself through his creativity. And as a result, built the Globe Theatre and then created communal experiences for hundreds of years until today. And William Shakespeare's story we all know about. Exactly. That's that guy. Yeah, that guy. That's the guy she's talking about. So both things are in me that I wanted to explore. And when you say in you, I mean, your DNA is all over this film.

14:33You wrote the screenplay, co-edited, directed the film. Yeah, I co-wrote it with Maggie. Yes. What was that experience like? I loved it. I said to her, you have to do it or I won't do the film. Well, how's she going to say no? Well, she still could, but I was very, you know, she reminded me I held the book up. On the screen, I went like, I want to make this. Yeah. How does the process work when you're co-writing with the author of a novel, such an incredible novel? And, you know, what happens when you disagree with Maggie O 'Farrell, who wrote the book? Can you? Yes. Yes, of course. I think without disagreement, without friction, there's no sparks, you know.

15:14I think I sent her these very long voice notes. Sometimes I talk myself out of my own idea. sometimes is convincing enough to convince her. Or maybe you should just go, that is a very long voice. No, I guess I'm going to say yes. And sometimes at the end of it, I'm like, you know what, Maggie, you're right. Never mind me. Beautiful. I was so excited when I knew I was going to interview you for so many reasons. But one of them is because when obviously you and Frances McDormand worked together for Nomadland, I remember thinking, oh, my God, I wish I could be in the room with those two women. And now you're telling me about your experience working with Maggie O 'Farrell, another powerhouse two women a couple together I'm hugely admire so let's bring in another one who's Jessie Buckley who plays Agnes the wife of William Shakespeare in Hamnet can you tell me how that came about and was it always going to be Jessie I mean she's extraordinary yeah always yeah I read the book and I had a very tunneled vision of Jessie I just saw her I saw her in that world.

16:18I saw her embody Maggie's world and I never had a doubt to be anyone else. What did you see her in that you thought was it all her work? I saw her in The Lost Daughter maybe a year or so before because I was in the jury at Venice when The Lost Daughter was there. I have not seen Wild Rose or Beast then. You've done a deep dive. And then I saw a woman talking when I met her at Telluride. So I felt not only she's technically such a brilliant actress and also with very strong discipline and conviction to do the work. I mean, the amount of work she does, everything from making honey to reading up all about everything around the character to like journaling to putting herself through somatic work.

17:14It's a full immersion of working on this character. But then also there's something about her having a really big heart and also having some kind of, whether she knows or not, ancient lineage supporting her. So she feels vulnerable enough to be able to, I say, like open that window to her soul in front of a camera. And you see that in her eyes. I completely know what you're talking about. There might be people who don't know. What do you mean an ancient lineage coming through her soul? I think in order to feel safe, whether you're an actor or just you and me right now, you know, in order to not wear a mask to protect ourselves and to feel safe, you have to have been held and loved and seen unconditionally, you know, by your mother, your father, your grandmothers, or, you know, in some case, your ancestors.

18:06And that connection is primal and vital for us. And that's unfortunately very much lost. And I feel like she, whether she knows it or not, is there. And this character, that's why she's drawn to this character, because she's supported by her lineage. It's a very powerful character and role to play because the themes of maternal grief are so strong in the film. There's scenes of childbirth, immense, unimaginable grief that are not sanitized. Why was it important for you to do that? Because when we sanitize grief, which is something inevitably, no matter how much you try to numb it out, we're all going to feel at some point of our lives.

18:57And when we sanitize that, we sanitize the love. you know because yeah yeah because you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply it's literally on the two side of a coin and and I I often see people react to the film with you know heartache and and tenderness and yeah and I want to remind them and that is because their capacity to love and the love they had and still have for whatever whoever they're grieving is immense yeah it's really interesting you should say that because I don't have children and when I watched the scene and it's not a spoiler because it's the main pivotal point of the film so we can say you know she you know she she loses her child what comes the wail and the pain that Jessie Bookley or, you know, through the character of Agnes expresses, I felt it.

19:57Like, I felt it. And I don't know what that... That's because your capacity to love is immense. And so are the audiences who don't have the exact experience as her. And we are actually biologically, psychologically designed this way, that tragedies, losses and grief connect us. we're able to feel empathy for each other through the unthinkable difficulties that we go through. And we're literally designed this way. And that's why we form community. We help strangers. And no matter how much you disagree with someone and you see them grieving for something, you immediately feel to be more human. And that, I think, when we try to avoid the grief part, we actually forgot empathy and love.

20:46It comes side by side. Yeah. How did you work with Jessie in those things? How did you bring her out of it? Like what happens on set when you're in such an intense environment? You know, first of all, having the right ecosystem around her, we carefully pick our cast and crew. You know, for example, Emily Watson. Oh, she's like a mother to us all. Yes. And to having her there makes a huge difference. And one thing is to start and end the day as if it's a container. And ritualistically, in the sense that in the morning, it's about taking it slow. It's about playing music, letting people know that you're allowed to have a profound experience.

21:30You're allowed to be silent. You're allowed to feel things. And if you're going to cry, that's also welcomed. Everyone, not just the actors. And so you kind of create a communal experience. And then you let the community like slowly ease into the day. And sometimes we'll play music because music helps harmonize everyone. And then we sometimes would play music on the first couple of takes. What music? Usually it's Jesse in the morning will send me a playlist. So it's very much where Agnes is. You know, we really want to understand her language. There's a lot of Max Richter. And he was the soundtrack.

22:06He was the soundtrack. The composer. But Jessie would bring in everything. And she did have a playlist for that day. I don't remember exactly what it is. And then we would play that for the first couple takes, even. So the camera operator, everyone is, again, is moved as a community. And only, Jessie would say, only when she feels held by the community can that level of vulnerability come through. Yeah, extraordinary. Yeah, you can imagine it has to be a very safe environment for someone to actually go there. And then you end the day with dancing. Ah, tell me more. I mean, you got me. You had me at dancing, Chloe.

22:47The best way to build community is dancing. Yes. Again, you may disagree with somebody from across the table, but if you play the music, everybody gets up dancing, you immediately feel like, oh, we could be friends. Doesn't matter how awkward the moves are. But as soon as we start moving our bodies, we're reminded that we're a lot more similar than we think we are. Yes. Universal language. And it just lets it out of your body. Is it true that you and Jessie bonded over a breakup? Tell me more about this story. Not a breakup. That wasn't exactly correct. But it's more like a series of heartbreak and loss and losing loved ones and losing a sense of self.

23:33I think when you're in life, everything that you built that first 40 years started to crumble. And then Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other within a day. and I started to feel I was near Central Park. I was just that feeling when you feel like the ground isn't there and there's nothing to hold you. And so, you know, she just happened to text me and say, hey, are you okay? I like one in the morning when I wasn't. And I had a choice in that moment. Every woman in their 40s is with us right now, listening to this going, yes, I know that day. You know what I mean?

24:12And then you're in the room, you go, I'm not okay. And so when she sent me that text message, I had a choice in that moment. I can say, yeah, I'm fine. And I am a woman, a person that have always said I'm fine, but not that day. And that's why I think midlife crisis, however you want to call it, the quickening, is not a bad thing. Because it made you realize you can't do this on your own. And it was probably one of the first time I would say to someone who I don't know that well yet, but just happened to be available in that moment going, actually, I'm not OK. She said, come over right away. And that's how.

24:57Thank you for listening to The Interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern, Mexican actor Diego Calva and refugee rights campaigner Baroness Aminka Helich. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:30If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the apartment bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

26:29Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.