Conductor Gustavo Dudamel: Music has the power to unite

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1:06Hello, I'm Mark Savage and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met Gustavo Dudamel, the Venezuelan classical music conductor.

1:48Born in the city of Barquee Cimento, he is famous for conducting orchestras all over the world. as well as the opening and end titles for Star Wars The Force Awakens. With a unique ability to communicate joy to mass audiences, Dudamel has become a rare pop culture icon in classical music. He tells me about El Sistema, Venezuela's unique programme, which has helped to train millions of musicians. He discusses his own passion for music and the highlights of his time as a musical director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. He also looks forward to taking over the helm of the New York Philharmonic in 2026, as well as his concerts in London with the rock band Coldplay.

2:31This is the symbol of thousands and millions of young people in my country and around the world dreaming to build their dreams through music. So this is a symbol of hope and optimism. It's not naive to think what we need is more empathy. It's more to look to each other and understand each other. Although we have differences, we believe in different things, and that we can, in a moment at least, be united by the most powerful and beautiful expression of human being that, for me, is music. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Gustavo Dudamel. My father was playing drums and my mother was part of the choir.

3:20They met in a folk music group. They were teenagers. They were 14, 15 years old. They met through music. My father was playing on the stage for me, the action of the stage, what was happening, how passionate he got to play the group, making that beautiful music together. It was kind of, I got connected. I wanted to play trombone and play salsa. which is the music that my father played. But then, of course, my father also was playing at the Youth Orchestra in Barquisimeto, in my hometown. And, you know, suddenly I was in love with that huge symphonic orchestra that I have in front when I was listening to that first concert.

4:03And famously, you went home and you arranged all of your toys into a semicircle and conducted them. Exactly. It's exactly like that. What was the first piece of music you conducted? Wow, that is a good question. It was Tchaikovsky, Romeo and Juliet, Overture. It was that. It was also Beethoven V, I remember. And Mozart. It was Mozart 41, Jupiter Symphony. And which toy was principal violin? I have these little puppets that I had the chance to put. with these were like Legos, but a little bit bigger. And I put in the right position. I remember I memorised perfectly what was happening because I was asking, what is that?

4:51Why they are sitting here? I was immediately like fascinated about how they were the structure. I love architecture since I was a little kid. So the position and the structure for me was very important. And you mentioned Barquisimeto, that's the fourth biggest city in Venezuela. But for people who I don't know, what was it like growing up there in the 80s? What sort of city was it? Well, a very active city, one of the principal cities of Venezuela. Very cultural, very musical. It's called the musical capital of Venezuela. And it's because all the richness in the music, in the music culture, very ethnic.

5:31I learned to play, you know, all of this music. I learned to dance all of this typical music, tamunangue, valses, all of this music that is part of our heritage, our culture. And yes, it was beautiful, my God. And obviously your transition to music was aided by El Sistema, this incredible musical program that was set up by the man who later became your mentor, José Abreu. Tell me a little bit about the philosophy of El Sistema. Well, I had the chance to grow up in this amazing family that is El Sistema, because my father also joined El Sistema, I think, in 1977, when he was, I think, 17 years old or 16 years old to play the trombone.

6:19So El Sistema was already in my family even before I became part of the program. And this is a program that created Maestro José Antonio Abreu in 1975, which used music as a tool for social transformation. This program is focused especially in communities with poverty, with problems, and then used the music to heal and to help these communities to grow. More than a musical school, I think, is a citizen school. Such a powerful thing, these young people that are part of the Sistema. We grow up making beauty together, which is the power of music. It's not only the technical tools that you can have.

7:02It's, you know, the interaction, the empathy, the way to work, the identity that you create through music, the discipline that the action of playing together teaches you how to behave in a community. So there are many values, and Maestro Abreu saw that since the very beginning, and he spread it all around Venezuela, and now all around the world. And when he was starting 50 years ago, how did he get the instruments into the hands of those first children? Well, at the beginning, it was not easy. He said that, you know, we have in our symbol of El Sistema, play and fight, play, sing and fight. You know, it's like a way that we grow up making music.

7:45And Maestro Abreu started with 11, 12 musicians at the beginning. He didn't have instruments. He was trying to bring instruments and all of these young people, they wanted to make music together. And Maestro Abreu had that idea saying, look, you are the beginning, the genesis of a big program that will embrace every single village of our country. That is in 1975. Maestro Abreu was a visionary man. They were doing music with the people of the village, they were doing theatre, they were doing little operas. So it was inside of his DNA, I think, that idea of bringing music to all, you know, as a right for everybody to enjoy and to live through music.

8:30And more than three million children have passed through El Sistema in the past 50 years. I wonder at the moment when Venezuela is going through, I guess, what's quite a turbulent period of poverty, there's violence, there's repression. How does the organization continue to meet those aims? The structure, what he made, was very strong. And he made the Venezuelan state be the main sponsor of the program since 1975. And it has crossed many political changes during these 50 years and the program is there. And I think it's because it's a symbol of the country. Maestro Abreu always was talking about identity.

9:12What is the worst thing of being poor is to be no one, is to be invisible. And through music it was given to us the way to build our identity through art, which is the most elevated expression of human being. And I think it's because Maestro Abreu always said, this is a mission. This is not a work. This is something that we are missionaries to really spread this and to give more opportunities to young people. And that is why, you know, Maestro Abreu, when he started in 1975, he was creating the different nucleus in different cities, in different villages of Venezuela, and it was growing and growing.

9:53and now is part of the identity of the country. And when you have that identity, especially in turbulent moments as we are living right now, you take this as something that heals you in the difficult moments. So that is why the sistema is there, because it's still saving the life of thousands of young people. And I know you have been critical at times of President Maduro. Do you feel that you have to sometimes be careful with your words because it could affect the children who are currently in the program? Look, I think for me the most important is the young people and that this new generation have the opportunity that I had and the next generation also have.

10:36I think making music in the way that as we make music, you learn empathy and generosity. And that goes beyond anything difficult that surrounds you because if you have that very well placed, then you fight for the things. If not for us to have the empathy to be a space for people to encounter and to have beauty and to find peace in the best values that we can express. And this is something that, of course, in a turbulent moment that my country and the world is really living right now, we need more of these spaces, more of these programs that motivate you to find the best of the people. I think we are living a crisis of empathy.

11:23Sometimes we get more separate. Everything becomes a little bit more sensitive, more aggressive. And music is not about that. It's about making completely different instruments played by completely different people and making harmony together. It's the best example of how to behave as a community. But there's a place for protest in music as well, isn't it? So you think of Sibelius' Finlandia or Shostakovich's Ninth Symphony. Is there a moment for that as well? But completely. And it's our way to express our things that we think. But people think that the only way of expressing things is saying something.

12:03And it's not to be careful of what you say. It's to be proper and how to do it. And how you see yourself inside of a community. I cannot speak individually if that affects thousands or millions of people. It's a responsibility that I have. And I believe in the way what we do change the things. It changes, it helps the country, our country, to be better. And this is the thing, you know, in a super politicized world that we live right now, that you have to say, you have to do, you have to be against, you have to be pro, it's difficult because everybody's screaming. Who is talking right now? to really listen to the other and create harmony and create this kind of thing, even if you disagree.

12:49So this is something that an utopia that we live, that we cannot create a bridge making our differences understand from both sides. So this is what the sistema does. And that is what you see in the action. You see all of the parents of these young people, the families, they have very different political visions and different backgrounds, and they get together and they play together. And they do music and they sit in the concert and although they can be disagreeing in everything, they sit together in a place and they are transformed by the music. And there's a famous phrase, joy as an act of resistance.

13:25Exactly, exactly. And this is the world that we have been living. I believe, you know, that for me it has been a privilege. And it's not a privilege about a material thing. It's about a spiritual action that we do through music. because I didn't grow up with luxury things. You know, we didn't have a place where to play, for example. Our conservatory, our orchestra was moving from one place to the other. You know, you move to one place, one was worse, the other was worse. And then we are here, you know. We are, you know, a sistema is what it is. But we have to work for that. And I cannot accept for that to die.

14:04I have to fight for that. And I have to be responsible to be a voice of what we believe is our action in community. And it's about bringing people together. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. This advertisement feature is paid and presented by Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Looking for the perfect place to grow your business? For over 30 years, Poland has been a launchpad for innovation at the heart of Europe, powered by world-class research and ambitious young talent. From bold startups to established powerhouses, Poland offers the momentum, resources and reliability you need to take your business further.

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14:56For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Gustavo Dudamel, the world-famous Venezuelan classical music conductor. I interviewed him while he was rehearsing in London for a series of concerts with the rock band Coldplay. Over ten nights, he will play to almost one million people at Wembley Stadium, along with the Simón Bolivar Youth Orchestra, a product of the El Sistema programme in Venezuela, which he joined himself as a young man learning to play violin before becoming a conductor. The interview took place at Air Studios in London, where some of the greatest albums in rock have been recorded, including Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms and Adele's 25.

15:39The conductor and his musicians were a little tired. They'd only flown in from Venezuela a couple of days before, but as soon as they started to play, the room came to life. Dudamel leads the orchestra with an intensity and a charisma that is unparalleled in classical music. There is a reason why he has been called the happiest conductor in America. And when we sat down to chat, he brought that same passion and energy to our discussion. OK, let's return to that conversation with Gustavo Dudamel. What you experienced in Venezuela and through El Sistema, like you say, it's very much outside the traditional Western way of approaching classical music.

16:20You don't go to a conservatoire. You don't study at school. Does that give you a different perspective when you go to work with orchestras in Berlin and Vienna and Los Angeles? Yes, of course. And this is the beauty, you know, of each culture is the difference of behave or action or how you approach things. And I have learned a lot, but I always bring my own experience of what I have been living in El Sistema. and everybody connects. It's very beautiful because you don't see a wall between the different approach for an interpretation or for a cultural, technical thing that you see in other places.

17:00We enrich each other with that thing, with that difference you take from this, we take from this, you give, and that is great. But I believe everybody connects through our differences. This is a beautiful question because it's what I have been living. I try to make, you know, these programs where we unite orchestras from different places and people. And then through the difference, we create something amazing. And I think it's a good way to connect. But I don't see a radical difference, of course, in the soul, in the approach, in the way how we do, in the way others do. Yes, of course. But music is one.

17:39But I think it's one of the things that people always talk about is your charisma and your intensity on the podium. There was one reviewer called you the happiest conductor in America. I'm very happy. You know, I see the positive things, even inside of the bad things. And that is my personality. That is something natural. I feel privileged of what I do, you know, to be in front of these wonderful, great orchestras, these great musicians, these great soloists, these great artists that I had the opportunity to work with. For me, it's a privilege. How I can be angry and sad of doing that, I really enjoy.

18:17And for me, it's a privilege to go and to interpret something together with people and create something beautiful. And I'm very happy for that. And one of the hallmarks of the last 15 years when you've been musical director of the LA Philharmonic is that outreach of going to something like the Coachella Music Festival and playing Beethoven's Fifth alongside something by LL Cool J and having Cynthia Erivo on stage with you. Well, being in Los Angeles, working at the Hollywood Bowl, having the opportunity to work with all of these amazing artists, it brought to me the idea to go to a place that maybe people think we don't belong.

19:01Classical music doesn't belong. And we went to Coachella, and it was the most beautiful and natural experience. It was historic because it was a transformation to see all of this amount of people. I think young people are hungry of culture. and how we give that to them. That intensity of connection that these people have, as you said, jumping from Beethoven V to LL Cool J to Cynthia Evo to Dave Roll, to all of these amazing people, Leve, you think maybe this is something crazy, but it was the most natural thing, where you'll be from Bach to Vivaldi Stravinsky to all of these music styles, and it feels like a beautiful embrace of beauty that we all need.

19:49And your life is going to transform next year because you're going to take over as the musical director of the New York Philharmonic and you'll become the first Latin American conductor to lead that orchestra. Is that something that feels significant to you? Well, absolutely. It's a huge honour and a privilege, you know, to embark in this new journey with the New York Philharmonic. For me, it's a huge honor to be in an institution that, you know, have been part of the culture of the world, you know. Do you like New York? I like New York, of course. In 1995, I was 13 years old, and we played, I remember, in Washington, and we played in New York in the cafeteria of the UN with the Children's Orchestra.

20:36Last year, the Children's Orchestra played at Carnegie Hall. So imagine, you know, this is the odyssey, the journey, you know, of these 50 years. So it's a city that fascinates me, yes. And that brings us to today. You're here in London to play 10 concerts at Wembley Stadium with Coldplay. How did that come about? This is a dream come true, you know. I have the privilege and the honour to have one friendship that I learned a lot, that I connect that is pure love and respect with Chris Martin from Coldplay. We met years ago, and it's beautiful because that connection became from this orchestra, from the Simon Bolivar Orchestra, when we did the Mambo of West Side Story at the proms.

21:24I think it was 2007 when we were here the first time. And we did that concert and we played, and then he was very amazed about what we were doing. and he's very into this social action through music. You know, when he does music, his will is to help, to heal, to transform. And that connects with our ideals, with our values. So we became very good friends since years ago. And he invited the YOLA, which is the Youth Orchestra of Los Angeles, the program that we created in Los Angeles, to the Super Bowl when Coldplay participated. And we were part, it was a beautiful moment. He wanted to give this beautiful space for these young people to be on the stage with them.

22:14And talking about all of this, you know, they are closing this tour. It has been such a beautiful, historical tour of Coldplay. It's the 50th anniversary of El System. I think Chris wanted to give something to the orchestra. I think it's a gift, a very generous gift of having all of us together, celebrating with them the power of music, and for us to be celebrating all of these 50 years to embrace by Coldplay, embrace by him. It makes us believe in what we do. And we are here just now rehearsing, preparing for these amazing performances that we are really looking forward. This is something that for me is very special because I imagine my maestro, Jose Antonio Abreu, 50 years ago with nothing and arriving here being embraced.

23:11But all of these great artists supporting and embracing this program because it's not only the people that will play in Wembley. This is the symbol of thousands and millions young people in my country and around the world dreaming to build their dreams through music. So this is a symbol of hope and optimism. And over those 10 nights, you'll play to almost a million people. What do you hope the audience will walk away from those shows feeling? It's not naive to think what we need is more empathy. It's more to look to each other and understand each other. Although we have differences, we believe in different things, and that we can, in a moment at least, be united by the most powerful and beautiful expression of human being.

24:05That, for me, is music.

24:12Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the US President Donald Trump, the Colombian artist Doris Salcedo and Irish historian Catherine Corness. Until next time, bye for now.

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