Dame Sarah Mulally, Archbishop of Canterbury: Working in partnership with others

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962. And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of U.S.

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1:09Hello, I'm Aleem McBool, the BBC's religion editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Dame Sarah Mullally at the old deanery besides St Paul's Cathedral in London. Shortly before, she was legally confirmed as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury in a service at the cathedral.

1:57Dame Sarah is the first woman to lead the Church of England, and although there have been female bishops for more than a decade, the ordination of women remains controversial, and her election has also led to some traditionalist churches abroad to threaten to leave the Anglican Communion. She started her career in nursing, rising to become England's chief nursing officer and sees the commonality between nursing and being a priest, not always finding a cure, she says, but trying to heal. The Archbishop tells me she understands the need to rebuild trust in the Church after a slew of abuse scandals.

2:37Her predecessor, Justin Welby, resigned following accusations he didn't act sufficiently well on information about a prolific abuser. Of course, she won't be making decisions on her own. Much of the Church of England's agenda is spelled out by its National Assembly, or Synod, which meets in February to discuss matters of doctrine and worship. But there's certainly lots to do. You're going to hear how she intends to make progress on some of these issues, from reparative justice for the Church's past involvement in slavery to how best to handle the blessings in Church of same-sex couples. And as a self-described feminist, you'll also hear Dame Sarah tell me that she will call out sexism.

3:22I know I have been very grateful for the support of a whole range of people, including men in my ministry. But it is fair to say that I have both in my secular role as well as in the church experienced misogyny at times. And I think that I've learnt it's the first thing you have to talk about it so that you bring it out into the open. I also think there's something around talking on a one-to-one basis as well, because some people may not experience it. So in a sense, I will continue to do that. I will talk to people individually if I experience it, but also to speak of it. And I'm conscious that being in this role, it's important for me to speak of it, because there are some that don't necessarily have the status or the power of this role and feel more hesitant to do it.

4:10Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dame Sarah Mullally, the Archbishop of Canterbury. There's a sense of the weight of office that I feel, but I've also been very conscious of the huge support that I've had from people either writing or emails or passing in the streets. So actually I feel really encouraged. And along with that, I feel hopeful. I know that in our churches and our chaplaincies, there's wonderful things happening, so also I feel hopeful as well. You have, of course, in recent days met with the King, the Shroom Governor of the Church of England. What were those conversations when it came to guidance or what he wants from the church?

4:51Is that what you would have talked about? I think the King was keen to hear from me about my vision for the church in the same way as a lot of people have. and therefore I shared with the King that I hope to be the shepherd, to care for people in their parishes, for our clergy, to support them, to enable them to do what they can do, but also to speak of the Christian hope, not just within the Church and the Anglican Communion, but also into the world and providing hospitality at a time where there's a lot of challenges for people, so places where people of difference can come together. A lot of people over the last few months have been looking at your incredibly impressive CV and looking at somebody who rose to the top of two vocations.

5:35How have you assessed how that has happened? What qualities do you have that meant you rose to the top of nursing, entered government and now within the church have risen to the top? Well first and foremost I've had one vocation and that's to follow Jesus Christ and I think for me the question has always been, what does God want me to do with my gifts and my skills? So that's where my focus has always been. But of course, there's commonalities between nursing and being a priest, that of people often sitting in those places where maybe there is no cure, but there is healing. And also that opportunity about how you build partnerships with people, and therefore collaboratively working together.

6:17And in a sense, I've always focused on what I've been called to do and how do I do that in partnership with the others with my best of my ability and so that's always been my focus. So in answer to the question about what qualities there are in you that have meant that you've got to this point you're talking about collaboration what else is there? Well I think my Christian faith has always been my foundation and there is something about that understanding that my value and my worth is in God and therefore stepping away from the expectations of other people. I've always been somebody that wants to work with people to enable them and encourage them to be the best that they can be.

6:59It's always helpful to have people who are better than you around you but also to work in partnership with people as well. So sometimes unusual partnerships to work in that way but always an interest in people and encouraging people to achieve what we need to achieve. Speaking of working with others there were lots of nods in the service at St Paul's to the wider Anglican Communion. You'll, of course, be aware of some of the response in some churches around the world to your election that have been negative. There are those who are even talking about electing what looks like rival leadership within the Anglican Communion.

7:42What is your message to those clergy, those churches? I've received a lot of support across the Anglican Communion, but I recognise there are those that find my appointment difficult. And the sense for me that I have always understood that people may find my appointment as a woman difficult in the church. And what I hope to do is to be able to provide a space where I can offer hospitality to people, where I can listen to what their concerns are, and in a sense find some way in which we can at least have partnership together in that way. But I'd also, I would above all want them to understand that I do hear their concerns from which they're coming from, but to find some way in which we can at least share hospitality.

8:27Your role in the Anglican communion is one of first among equals. If there is a rival first among equals that is elected, have you thought through, talked through what a relationship might look like? between you and them? I think one of the real privileges of this role is the Anglican Communion and I'm approaching it in the same way as I'm approaching looking after the Diocese of Canterbury or the Church of England is around doing it in partnership so already I have met with the five regional primates and my conversation with them is that I want to share ministry with them and and also that I hope to meet with them again up in the run-up to my installation so So first and foremost, I'm trying to build that collaboration with the regional primates that are there, but also already meeting with a larger number of bishops within the Anglican Communion.

9:25So whenever you start a new role, you have to know and be known. And that, first and foremost, is what I'm doing over these months, is how do people know me? How do I know them? How can we build that collaboration and partnership together? So there are those who have expressed their opposition to your election because of their theological beliefs. There are others who have expressed their opposition because of a record on safeguarding, not just because you were a senior member of the church in recent years, which haven't been good years in terms of dealing with safeguarding necessarily, but also because of personal implications and the way you've handled safeguarding, particular cases as Bishop of London.

10:11What is your message to those people? I said on the day of my announcement that all of us should be open to having the light shone on what we do and coming in as the Archbishop of Canterbury I recognise rightly so that there is greater scrutiny on me and the actions that I have undertaken and I will reiterate my commitment to safeguarding, particularly to listening to the victims and survivors of abuse. And I have over the years, and London is evidence of this, of increasing resources into safeguarding, ensuring that our procedures are better and also pastoral to people. But also we increasingly listen to the voice of survivors and victims.

10:55But I also commit to ensuring that we have independence, independence in safeguarding both in scrutiny but also in operations as well so I recommit to ensuring that we we move forward to build on the improvement that we have seen we should not be complacent and I know that we need to do more. Well you talk about scrutiny and you talk about independence but the decision that there was no case to answer in the in the specific case that it was alleged you were implicated in. That decision was taken by the Archbishop of York. That's not going to look like scrutiny or independence to people outside.

11:35Part of the clergy disciplinary measure is that there is always the right to appeal, and that right to appeal is to a president of a tribunal who is independent. I have spoken before about improving the clergy disciplinary measure, and proposals are going to this synod in February to work on that. So there is independence in the system and there are further improvements being put in place. You mentioned Synod. One issue that is going to be high on the agenda is the issue of blessings, standalone blessings for same-sex couples. That is something that you supported in the past. It's something that Synod voted, approved, and yet that process has faltered and will finally come to an end in many respects.

12:25People will now be looking, they have been, as Bishop of London, have been looking at your leadership. They will be looking at your leadership on this issue as well. As someone who has supported that and knowing those who have waited for a long time for the church to take strides forward when it comes to equality. What is the next move that you would support on looking into this issue? The proposals coming to Synod, in a sense, confirm the decisions that were made in February 2023. Then, and we reinforce it, the House of Bishops commended prayers to be said, prayers of blessings and thanksgiving for same-sex couples.

13:09That was the first time that that's been made possible. and having spoken to couples who have already experienced those prayers as part of an existing service, I know how much that means to them. So this February we will confirm that that was our decision and what it will also do is outline the steps that would need to take place if there were standalone services and also on a range of other issues. So my role as the Archbishop of Canterbury is to ensure that that process goes through, that we listen to Synod and that we then respond to the decisions that Synod makes. But you support, you would support essentially standalone services of blessing for same-sex couples.

13:49So in 2023, I moved the motion that supported prayers of blessing and thanksgiving within existing services for same-sex couples. And I am very grateful that that decision was made. I'm very grateful that same-sex couples can have those blessings within existing services. What is your feeling about stand-alone services? So the process that is going to be in February is outlining what needs to happen if the next step were to be stand-alone services of blessing and thanksgiving for same-sex couples. As the Archbishop of Canterbury, I see my role at the moment is to listen to what Synod has to say about that and to continue to hold that space within the Church of England where there are a range of different views on this issue.

14:40So do you feel you can't talk about what your personal view is on this? As the Archbishop of Canterbury, I suppose one of those things that I want to offer is to how you shape further that space where people of different views on the issue of same-sex blessings can operate and to speak about it. And so therefore I feel that that's my role, is to hold that space.

15:09You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

15:36will bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962. And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F. Kennedy. We explore what was a terrifying moment in history. The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis. How close the world came to nuclear war. And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink. The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev. All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

16:32The ceremony confirming Dame Sarah Mullally as Archbishop was held at St Paul's Cathedral in London on a cold January day. Parts of the ceremony have their origins dating back to the creation of the Church of England in 1533 and are a blend of legal process and religious service. At one point, St Paul's Cathedral was, in effect, turned into a courthouse with a new archbishop being represented by an attorney as she took her oaths. I'm Sarah Elizabeth Mullally, Bishop of London, elected Archbishop of Canterbury. Do you swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance His majesty King Charles III, his air to his success.

17:26One of the newer aspects of the ceremony was the inclusion of a wide range of voices from across the church and also Anglican churches globally. Among those elements was a Portuguese reading, a nod to associations with Anglican churches in Angola and Mozambique and also a South African, Xhosa hymn. The Church said this was done as a reminder of who was joining in prayer for Dame Sarah and the people should be called to lead and serve, and that includes Anglicans around the world. Anglicanism, of course, spread through colonialism, and the Church of England had its impact throughout the British Empire.

18:05Some of that impact is now considered shameful. In relation to that point, let's return to my conversation with Dame Sarah Mullally, the new Archbishop of Canterbury. One of the other issues that's arisen in recent weeks is the issue of reparative justice, given the amount that the Church was involved in the past in slavery, investing as it did in the South Sea Company that transported slaves, and other ways in which it benefited from slavery. there has been talk for years there have been discussions there has been investigation as to how to spend money on some projects in some kind of reparative measure they again seem to have faltered what is the way that you again will will take that forward well the church of england has to take seriously its role in the part we played in the transportation of enslaved people and as always the church has had to you know not only take seriously our role but also act in a way that that is about justice and about mercy and certainly the spire project seeks to try and, in a sense, provide a just and a merciful way forward.

19:31And the money and the projects for that will go to some of our most deprived communities in the churches. So certainly I am supportive of that. But alongside that, recognise that we've put£1.6 billion over the next three years into our parishes. So in a sense, the Project Spire goes alongside what we're doing for our parishes and our church. There are those who've raised concerns about the fact that not everyone will feel that money they've given as charitable donations goes to these projects. What is your response to those who've raised that as an issue? Well, the Project Spire does not take money away from parishes and our chaplaincies.

20:12And we have made this commitment of£1.6 billion over the next three years, which for the first time is allocated in a way that people wanted us to do it. We did this huge listening exercise to say how do people want, in a sense, the Church Commissioner's money to be allocated. So this£1.6 million is going to some of our most lowest income communities. It's going into the places where clergy and members of our congregations have said they want it around stipends and around pensions to support our clergy. So there is money going into parishes and chaplaincy. And I continue to absolutely give my support to supporting the places that make the real difference in our communities.

20:58One last issue I want to raise, which is around something that you spoke passionately about in the past, assisted dying. The Lords is in the process of looking at amendments. It's looking like it could even get to the point where the debates will be timed out. Would that, I suppose, suit you? I mean, for the debate to be timed out rather than sort of go against something that the general population has shown in lots of polls that they want? I'm conscious that the topic of assisted dying affects people in many ways, and I'm conscious that it impacts people. Also, the debate around assisted dying has meant that we've talked much more about death, which I think is a very positive thing, because it helps us not only to deal with those bereavements we've experienced, but also manage for our own death.

21:53And certainly the House of Lords has a role in Parliament to properly scrutinise legislation, and therefore that's what's happening at the moment, is there is a process around the right legislation of what is a very complex bill that probably has one of the most significant shifts in our society that we probably in our generation have ever seen. So it's absolutely right that the House of Lords takes their role for scrutiny absolutely seriously and properly and give the time to these complex amendments to ensure that the right decisions are made. Now that you are Archbishop of Canterbury, Do you see your role as bridge building, holding things together rather than laying out what you feel is the principled way forward?

22:41Or is that a tussle? I suppose I feel called to the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury in a sense with who I am. And I have to work that role out within integrity. and my role has always been to first of all listen to God but to listen to other people that we work in partnership but I do know as I have done in other roles that I have undertaken that there will be moments where I have to either make a decision or I have to offer a view and I will do that but I do that I think with prayerful and theological underpinning and having listened to people so you know let's do it in partnership there I have mentioned I think it's an African proverb that says if you want to go fast go alone if you want to go far go together and so my desire is to go far and together.

23:32You have talked in the past others have talked in the past about some levels of misogyny in the church that it can be a bit of a boys club that they can be microaggressions how will you navigate that? I know I have been very grateful for the support of a whole range of people, including men in my ministry. But it is fair to say that I have both in my secular role as well as in the church experienced a misogyny at times. And I think that I've learned it's the first thing you have to talk about it so that you bring it out into the open. I also think there's something around talking on a one-to-one basis as well, because some people may not experience it.

24:14So in a sense, I will continue to do that. I will talk to people individually if I experience it, but also to speak of it. And I'm conscious that being in this role, it's important for me to speak of it because there are some that don't necessarily have the status or the power of this role and feel more hesitant to do it. But certainly as the Church of England, we have seen many changes over the years and I commit myself to making an environment where all people can flourish, which is safer for all.

24:47Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Hind Kabawat, Syria's only woman minister, and Nigel Casey, the UK's ambassador to Russia. Until next time, bye for now.

25:18America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:13All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.