Daniel Noboa, Ecuador President: A war on gangs

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1:21We'll be right back. Denton.

1:26Hello, I'm Katrina Perry, the BBC's chief presenter based in Washington, D.C. And this is The Interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met the president of Ecuador, Daniel Naboa, who was in Washington, D.C., for talks with politicians here.

2:11Mr. Naboa became Ecuador's youngest leader when he first won the presidency in 2023 at the age of 35. He went on to be re-elected last year following his hardline military crackdown on violent criminal gangs. Human rights groups, though, have warned that these measures could pose risks to civil liberties. Ecuador's location, sandwiched between Colombia and Peru, the world's two largest producers of cocaine, makes it a lucrative location for drug trafficking gangs. President Noboa has warned about the levels of crime faced in Ecuador, with around 70 % of the world's cocaine now flowing through the country's ports.

2:53In our conversation, he talks about the issue of safety in Ecuador. And he tells me cooperation from other countries is essential in the fight against international crime organisations. It is an uphill battle, but it's a battle that we need to fight it. We need to fight it for our kids, for the future generations. it's a sacrifice. I have a 70-year-old, a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old and we're being threatened every single week. There's been a tenth of my life but if we don't fight it, we can lose our nation.

3:34Welcome to The Interview from the BBC World Service with President Daniel Naboa in a conversation I recorded last week. You declared an internal armed conflict against gangs. How do you respond to critics who say that Ecuador is at risk of becoming militarized as a result? Well, first, they're not common gangs. Ecuador's case is not the same as El Salvador or other countries in Central America. These are transnational organizations. Los Choneros, for example, has over 30 ,000 armed men and women. Los Lobos, 40 ,000 armed men and women, and they operate in over 30 countries. They export cocaine.

4:20They move fentanyl. They are into organ trafficking, human trafficking, illegal mining. This is not common gang behavior. So I think the critics are really misinterpreting what we do in our nation and what these organizations are. Are you making the sort of progress, though, where you would hope those temporary measures don't become permanent? They shouldn't become permanent. This is a war. We will treat it as a war. And the first thing that we want is the war to end. We want peace. We want a better life for our people, especially for our youth. Most homicides are against the youth, against people under 30 years old.

5:10And that affects the future. That affects not only your society as a whole, but the youth, the future labor force. It's a big delay in the progress of a nation. We don't want it to be permanent. We want it to go away as soon as possible. But we need international cooperation for that. And how do you draw the line between security and civil liberties? Because there have been some concerns raised by human rights groups, the UN and others, about human rights abuses during this period. Yes, there's been some concerns. I invite them all to come to Ecuador and to see the reality of what's going on. We had that conversation also with the ambassador in Ecuador from the UN and from the European Union when we had national strikes and we were able to show that it's also a tool that organized crime uses as a defense method.

6:07You mentioned international cooperation there, and Ecuador obviously has two neighbors who are the two biggest cocaine-producing countries. What sort of international cooperation are you getting in terms of help for you and what you're trying to do? We're getting exchange of intelligence reports, but we need more cooperation, especially in the difficult areas. For example, in our northern border with Colombia, Sucumbios, Carchi and Esmeraldas. The neighbors of these provinces, of our northern provinces, are not the Colombian state. They are the guerrillas. They control that area, and we want them to stay away from Ecuadorian territory.

6:53At the same time, we need support in port areas like Pozorja or Guayaquil or Puerto Bolivar, where a good percentage of the drugs are being exported and illegal gold is being exported as well. This is a circle of money laundering and crime that needs to be affected or needs to be tackled from different angles. It's not just gang violence or just drug trafficking. These are international crime organizations. Do you feel your regional partners are doing enough with you? No. With Peru, we have more cooperation. With Colombia, I don't believe they're doing what they should. And that's costing us a lot of money as well to secure the border in the north when they have retreated their own army and their own police.

7:52And you've recently got a very close relationship with the U.S. on this matter. You did joint operations earlier in the year. How is that proceeding? Well, we would like to do more with the U.S. We've informed also the real issues that we have in certain areas, and especially the areas that affect our citizens the most. That's our top priority. Our top priority is the Ecuadorian people. And those are the ones that voted for us, and those are the ones that need the results. So we are looking more into more urban and port operations rather than rural operations in the future. But does that involve cooperation with the U.S.

8:38and joint operations? With the U.S., with Europol, with the UAE as well, with Japan, with Korea, with not only the U.S., with many nations that trade with Ecuador and that need Ecuador to continue exporting some of our products there and purchasing some of our products and importing them to Ecuador. So they also need a safe Ecuador. President Trump and the administration has carried out a number of strikes, obviously, on boats in the international waters there. Are you confident that every boat that he has struck is a drug trafficking boat or narco-terrorists, as they refer to them? I believe they have good intelligence.

9:22I would assume that they have the adequate intelligence to make a call like that and to make a decision like that. Our main concern today is inland, is in Guayas, in El Oro. In just two provinces, we have 58 % of the homicides in a nation. So we need to focus also on ground operations, on dearticulating the structures that do the money laundering, that do the storage, and that provide weapons, and that contaminate neighborhoods and contaminate our youth. It's quite the uphill battle. Can you get on top of it? It is an uphill battle, but it's a battle that we need to fight it. We need to fight it for our kids, for the future generations.

10:13It's a sacrifice. I have a 70-year-old, a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old, and we're being threatened every single week. The security of my family has been threatened in the past. And there's been attempts on my life in the past as well. But if we don't fight it, we can lose our nation. And how does that impact you and being president when there are those attacks on you and your family? Well, I need to externalize it in a way. Of course, if I focus on it, it'll definitely affect me. But I need to continue pushing. They continue fighting and it'll be in the memory of my children, of my grandchildren, that what we did was the right thing at the right time.

11:08You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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12:30Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters, the food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know, it's Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it. Set it. Prep it. Done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Available now in the Reynolds Wrap Aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco. Ecuador's president, Daniel Noboa, came to meet me at our BBC studios in downtown Washington, D.C. for this interview. He's had multiple attempts on his life and receives ongoing threats against his family.

13:14For that reason, it's perhaps no surprise that he travels with a large security detail. Around 20 people accompanied him, Secret Service and political advisors. Nevertheless, he bore that pressure lightly, stopping to engage in pleasantries with several members of our production crew. He was secure, perhaps, in the knowledge that his team had spent days securing our bureau, identifying a safe room and easy exit options if needed. An ordinary day in his life, perhaps. An unusual day, though, for those in our office building. OK, let's return to my conversation with President Daniel Noboa. Now, you mentioned your kids are so young.

13:57You yourself are one of the youngest presidents or world leaders. Does that give you a bit of an edge, do you think, an advantage? It gives me an edge in connecting with the youth, but it's also something that makes it difficult because there used to be a ruling class. There used to be a ruling opinion class in our nation. people that were used to being consulted for everything that happened in our country. And they're not happy that, you know, we skipped three generations and now they have a president that is under 40 making the calls and not, you know, asking them for advice or consulting with them.

14:45So that's also something that affects on our progress. But change is never easy. Change is complex, and one needs to be brave enough to follow through when there's times of change. What has surprised you most about the presidency? In politics, in general, not everyone has good intentions. One would think that if people are serving a country, everyone would have good intentions. But that's not the case. in some cases people would rather have personal gain and affect their nation than the other way around. We are working hard and affecting our own interests in Tibet for the benefit of a nation. It's a complete opposite of what has happened in our country for years.

15:43And when you're trying to affect that change, I mean, you use social media a lot. Does that help you get your message across and, you know, kind of explain complex ideas and plans in a more tangible and understandable way. Yes, and we have to move a lot. We have to go to territory, go to provinces, go to small towns, go to areas where no other president has been present. And that is what makes the difference to have a direct contact with the people and with the problems that they live on a day-to-day basis. You mentioned the ruling class that had existed in Ecuador. I mean, you're obviously from a very famous family yourself, known for the corporation, wealthy.

16:28Do you think, do people think that you can understand them given your background and that sort of change that you're trying to bring about? Well, people decided twice and they thought, And yes, that I could understand what has been affecting their lives in the last few years. My father ran for president also several times, but he was also affected by the ruling class at the moment, the political class. Yes, he was a businessman, but that doesn't mean that businessmen are part of the ruling class. It doesn't happen in every nation. I don't think Ecuador is different than most nations. And so that helps us connect with people, helps us connect with their fight, with their preoccupations, and also with their hope and dreams.

17:21Everyone has hopes and dreams. And speaking of that and sort of democracy and speaking for the people, I mean, there has been a trend into sort of strongman politics across the continent. How do you prevent against that? People were looking for a strong man. People were tired of weak men. The past two presidents weren't considered strong men. People wanted change. People wanted someone that would fight for them and also that would help them achieve their goals, achieve their dreams, and someone that would protect them. At the same time, we believe in the separation of power on an independent judicial and on a legislative branch as well.

18:08We are strong in Congress and the Assembly, but that doesn't mean that we control the Assembly. And we believe in free elections. Even people need to choose whatever they like and whatever they prefer. Are you concerned at all about democracy backsliding across the continent? I think there's cycles and it's a response to the failure of democracies in the recent past. But I believe in strong democracies. I believe that democracies with strong foundations can actually achieve success. And that's what we're looking for in our country. And apart from the crime and security issues that we've been discussing, Of course, a lot of Ecuadorians are living with poverty, inequality, unemployment.

19:02Can you address all of that while the crime and the security issue is still so real? Yes, that's been part of our goal. At the moment, we're at the lowest level in our poverty index in the history of the country, 21.4%. The last time it was at that level was in 2017. So we've reduced poverty. We've increased consumption. We've increased total sales and revenues, and we have pushed for a dynamic economy at the same time where we're fighting crime, which is very difficult to do both things. Any nation or any government that is looking for deep reforms has a hit at the beginning, at least, in consumption.

19:47We are growing double digits when it comes to consumption, when it comes to also investment. And we can see it in the numbers. We have record deposits in our banking system. We started with$43 billion. Now we're at$64 billion. We have the lowest country risk in almost 10 years. I started with$2 ,000, now$400 ,000, the lowest poverty rate in the poverty index. And those numbers are powerful because it means that we're able to fight a war and sustain the economy and grow at a rate that it's important and it's way above average in the region. Oil exports, of course, a big part of the economy. Have you been impacted by the global energy crisis at the moment caused by the situation in Iran?

20:37We've been impacted like everyone, but we are moving towards a more diverse energy sector. We're pushing for more natural gas. At the same time, we're investing in our grid, in our electricity grid. And we need to be cautious in times like these. We need to not affect our people as much with the increase in the cost of living. We have one of the lowest inflations in the continent, lower even than the U.S., being a dollarized economy. And that is because we promote food production, we promote low cost of transport, and we promote exports, diversified exports, mainly food. Of course, the environment and the Ecuadorian ecosystem is so important as well, given the geography of your country.

21:46Can you transition away from fossil fuel dependence? We hope so. It's not that easy. It's easier to say it than to actually do it. But we're moving towards that. We're moving into more renewable energy, solar, wind, geothermal, also with the power of our own volcanoes. And in the near future to have nuclear plants as well. We believe that it could help in some regions of the country where there's not that many other options, for example, in Santa Elena. Your country also is the first in the world with the recent constitution to recognize legally enforceable rights of nature. What concerns do you have for the broader environment in Ecuador?

22:44Well, we've been working for conservation. In Galapagos, we have very strict rules, especially on our waters and on the surrounding waters of the Galapagos Islands. And we have blue bonds that we've been issuing for a few years, as well as the largest issuance of green bonds for the conservation of the Amazon, with over$1.1 billion in green bonds there. So we're working towards conservation, but also we can't forget about our urban youth, which is right now the ones that are living in the highest level of poverty, violence, and all kinds of issues. So we need to have a balance between true conservation, but also take advantage safely of our resources for the benefit of the people.

23:42And what do you say to those young people? Because, of course, a lot of them are leaving Ecuador as well, aren't they? A lot less. In the last couple of years, we've come down from over 200 ,000 people leaving the country to less than 20 ,000. People are staying. There's more opportunities. We've given incentives also and tax deductions to companies that hire people under 29. And that has increased our employment, especially for young people. These young people in the past didn't have any options. Some of them ended up, unfortunately, with the cartels, and some of them actually ended up dead. Now they have a fighting chance.

24:28Now they have an option. Now they have an option to study, an option to work, and to have a normal life, to have a family. And while you're here in the U.S., are you trying to attract investment into Ecuador? You have the workforce that you mentioned there. Yes. I mean, we're working not only with the U.S., but with all nations that would like to invest. We've been working with companies from the U.K., especially mining companies and companies that are into energy production, as well as the Middle East. And on that, we've seen China invest a lot in Latin America. How do you balance your relations with Beijing and with Washington?

25:10Well, we have a good commercial relationship with China. We don't want to depend on any nation. So we keep a balance, Europe, China, the U.S., the Middle East and the rest of South America.

25:27Our security partner is the U.S., but our second largest trade partner is China. So we need to keep a balance and respect all nations.

25:43Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky, author Azhar Nafisi, and former Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Until the next time, bye for now.

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