David Grossman: Isolating Israel is not the answer

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts With the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

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1:15Hello, I'm the BBC News Hour presenter Tim Franks, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I've been talking to Israel's most prominent living author, David Grossman.

2:00Since publishing his first novel over 40 years ago, his works have been translated into more than 30 languages. Many deal with the issues around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. David Grossman won the Booker International Prize for Literature in 2017, and he's been a vocal, long-standing critic of the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, expressing concern over the direction the country is being led in. And then he went further than ever before in August in an interview with the Italian newspaper La Repubblica. The 71-year-old described Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide, and he lamented that he'd been forced to reach that conclusion by the military campaign that had begun following the massacre led by Hamas of October 7th.

2:50It was a comment which caused ripples around the world. What I said in this interview of two months ago, for me it's heartbreaking that it's even a possibility, it's even an option that Israel, or the name of Israel, will be connected to genocide. We're meant to be so different from that, and we find ourselves in the opposite place, a place of cruelty and brutality, I use this sharp word.

3:24Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with David Grossman. I do have to ask you about the word that you, I don't know, maybe reluctantly came to back in August, but the view that what Israel was committing in Gaza was a genocide, the most serious charge of all, and of course a charge that is absolutely loaded with history for Jews. Having reached that conclusion in August, I'm sure you are aware of the huge reaction that that produced. What are your thoughts now? Yes, I'm aware of the reactions and the echoes. I think that now the reality that I related to two months ago has been changed somewhat.

4:16We are not in the same place. The reality is not in the same place. I am not. But what I feel more above everything is that I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to make the words the major thing that I relate to. I don't want to live in a reality that asks these questions. And what I said in this interview of two months ago, for me it's heartbreaking that it's even a possibility, it's even an option that Israel or the name of Israel will be connected to genocide. We are meant to be so different from that. And we find ourselves in the opposite place a place of cruelty and brutality.

5:06I use this word, this sharp word. You talk about Israel as a place of cruelty. And I mean, that's language that you've used for a long time now, and how it has gone against the early dreams of it being a light unto the nations as somehow an idyllic place. What do you think the rest of the world should do now? How should it hold Israel, regard Israel, deal with Israel? Because there are some who say the only way to make the whole of Israel listen in a way and change its behavior is to isolate it completely through a movement of boycott and divestment from and sanctions on. What do you say to that argument?

5:54To isolate Israel or to punish Israel will be the most unresponsible and unacceptable step. To boycott Israel, for example, I think it's a huge mistake. Because what we need is a dialogue, is having a conversation with countries around us and in the world.

6:24you hear me hesitating I'm still under your definition of Israel is a place of cruelty, there is cruelty in Israel but it's not the place of cruelty, there are other countries who are much more cruel than us and behave in a much more terrible way than ourselves, yet I as an Israeli, I want to have And my country, I want it to behave in a different way, different values or criterias. And I don't want to collaborate with this blackening of Israel without even thinking of the nuances of what it can make and how it can influence the Israelis. because one optional, possible, likable response to the isolation of Israel is that Israel will become more and more entrenched, more and more hostile, aggressive, all those things that can produce not the best society, so to say the least.

7:29And I very much want to believe that what we are going through here is reversible, that after the shock of October 7th will pass or fade out a little. How can it pass? How can it fade out? But if it will have another place in our society, then we'll start a process of hopefully recovery. And for that, we need a dialogue. We need people whom we trust. And it's a question, how long will it take until we shall again feel that we are part of the international community because there are so many attacks on this notion. So many hatred is directed at us and prevents any dialogue. And part of the change that we must undergo depends not on us for a change, but on the people who are boycotting us, hating us, treating us without any nuances, without any understanding of the complexity of our situation.

8:36There is something that I start to feel in the last months that bothers me and annoys me. This is the attitude of nations, of papers, of universities, who are really not only criticizing us, but really hating us. It's a kind of an exposed and brutal hatred without any understanding, without any nuances. And this is a topic that the nations, those nations, those organizations should ask themselves, what is the meaning of this malicious glee that suddenly is sprouting everywhere against Israel? What does it tell us? what it portrays about us by others. Shall we at all collaborate with these hateful approaches towards us?

9:32Can they be useful for us if we want to recover? Because I feel that something very, very primal starts to be exposed in the last year or two years. Something that is dangerous, that reflects the depth of the relationship towards Israel. The depth of the relationship, it can be good, it can be useful, it can be building up, it can empower us. But it's also, there is this nuance or this air of hating Israel, of prejudices Israel, of creating reality that is diabolic and demonic and has very little to do with us. Because you see, there are other countries who are doing terrible things, and I don't want to justify by that what we are doing.

10:26But there are countries who are much worse violent and hateful, and there are so many international conflicts right now in the world, but none is related to with such deep hatred. none is related to with an approach that is almost calling for the elimination of us. And it's always struck me, you know, I hear that President Trump or other presidents and kings and leaders, they say that Israel has the right to exist. And we feel very good with Israelis that this person, this leader said that we have the right to exist. And then I asked myself, come on, who has the right to tell me if I have the right to exist?

11:13I exist. I am. I'm not dependent on your goodwill or badwill. I am here because this is my place. This is my home. This is the place we originated as a religion first, and then as a language and culture and so many other things. No one can deprive us of that. No one can give us, grant us, or deprive us of the right to be with capital B. And it's also a question that should be asked by other nations, not by us. Why is it like that? Why is it that we are not having the existential security, the solidity of existence? Why other countries think they have the right to deprive us of this?

12:05You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

12:49With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:25For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to David Grossman. He's a celebrated author, certainly Israel's most famous living novelist, and one who's won a great number of awards around the world. He's also been a lifelong peace activist. His most recent book, published in English, came out last year, a collection of essays called The Thinking Heart on Israel and Palestine. Let's return to my conversation. One of the things that people talk about is, and I know that in the past you've said, look, it's not workable, but the two-state solution has not proved workable so far. If the Palestinians and Israelis can't work out how to divide the land, they will have to work out how to share the land.

14:12Yeah, but do you really see us, the Israelis, with all our abilities, grant voluntarily a half of this country to the Palestinians? It will not happen. It will not happen. Maybe, you know, after 50 years, if we learn to live together side by side in the two state solution, and we should start to behave politically mature as we are not, then will be the time to test other daring political solutions. But these two peoples who are crushed and distorted by years of animosity and hatred, You cannot really believe that they will start to collaborate in a political maturity and in a vision maturity. They will not.

15:06I can only imagine how will the Israeli part of this one state solution, how will it treat the Palestinians? because we shall become more suspicious, more tough. We shall not allow the Palestinians to enjoy real freedom, real dignity of life. They will not have it. If we are trying to create a state for them and a state for us, and with a lot of courage and wisdom and farsightedness, which we don't have, but again, give me a better people's, and I'll embrace it. I wonder if you've got, I mean, dare I say it, I wonder if you are suffering a failure of imagination, though, because, I mean, there are some who would point to, look what happens inside Israel's internationally recognized borders.

16:01You have 20 % of your population is Palestinian, Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. And yes, there is discrimination. And yes, in 2018, a law was passed that many people saw as being essentially a racist law that relegated those Palestinians to a sort of second class status. but it works up to a point they are part of the political system they've even recently been a minority part of the government that perhaps perhaps there is a model here yes of course it will take time and yes of course there are suspicions but you know this idea of a two-state solution it may have support from outside but that is again that's just because so far no one has come up with a better idea?

16:55Yes. First, I want to mention that the way that the Israeli-Palestinians, this minority of 20%, the way they behaved in the last two years of the war were very impressive and very mature. And this is a model that can be adopted. But if the Israeli Palestinians will be threatening the majority, this majority, the Jewish majority that I belong to will behave in a very violent way. We should not allow it to happen. If you look at the political behavior of most of the parties in the Knesset, in our parliament, you see that the Palestinians are still pushed aside, overlooked. By the way, like most of the situations, conditions of the Abraham Accord, that is a piece of the rich, and it ignores totally the misery of the Palestinians, their situation, the deprivation of their dignity, of their hopes for the future.

18:03and if you ignore that, you ignore life you ignore the complexity of life and you ignore the right of the Palestinians to have their dignity and their hopes and their ability to live normal life because for God's sake these people they have been treated in a terrible way in the last century it's not only by us it's because by the Jordanians and by the Egyptians and by the Turks. And there is a tough price that the people pays for being so crushed for so many years. You mentioned the Abraham Accords, and there is a view that actually what has happened as a result of this terrible war over the last two years is that those countries in the region, those Arab countries in the region, actually, maybe although they talk the language of saying that they want a fair settlement for the Palestinians, there is a view among some, I mean, not even ultra-nationalists in Israel, but just, I would say, people who would describe themselves as hard-nosed centrists who say, Actually, you know, Israel, it's not so isolated after the end of this war because it is surrounded by countries where there is a respect for might, for power, a respect for what Israel has done to alter the balance of power in Lebanon, to have humbled Iran, to have caused an implosion in Syria, to have smashed the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza.

19:52and it may not be a very moral world, but actually this is the real world. And so your plea for the Palestinians no longer to be ignored, actually, you know, people will talk about the Palestinians for a while, but then the real world will intervene and Israel will be fine. Israel will just get along and the next cause will come along. So actually, there isn't much hope of the paradigm shifting. I like the way you describe it, but I'm afraid that the real world that you, as you called it, I'm not sure I want to live in such a world, a world that is dominated totally by power. And for us, the Israelism, it means to become more and more alerted, more and more prepared for the next war.

20:47and the more civil we'll become, the more suspicious we shall be. Also, because you have to acknowledge the mental price that we are all paying because of what happened to us, the way we have been taken by surprise in October 7th. And this means that from now on, the need to be on the alert all the time to live our life on the sword or by the sword, to be suspicious and hateful and feeling cornered more and more. The Israel that I see, and this part of Israel I deeply do not like, is a country that is shaped by fear and suspicion and violence. it becomes more and more religious more and more fanatic and fundamentalist and in a way it's understandable you know if we want to analyze this behavior even if we do not agree with it it's understandable people who have been taken by surprise in such a cruel, brutal way cannot really trust even reality they are tired they despair of their ability to change this reality and they understand that the results of the war of October would be growing fanaticism and fundamentalist, and there will be a growing void between the citizen, the average citizen, and the reality that he or she creates out of fear.

22:28And this void will not remain empty because there will be forces that are more decisive and extremists who will pour into this void and will kidnap our future and will hijack our reality and kidnap our children. It's not the beautiful dream that we had. And no one can allow himself to be innocent or naive about this reality. How do you change? How do you affect that change? As a nation? I mean, I don't know. I mean, given that I'm not saying this in a way to denigrate at all what you are saying, but it is a message, it is a plea that you have been making for so long, and it is unrequited. How does the narrative change?

23:28There is very, very little feeling of hope. People sometimes ask me, what is your hope? What is your hope? As if I'm a carrier of hope, and I'm not. There's this story that I love to tell about this man who, during the war in Vietnam, was standing every Friday in front of the White House. And one day, a cynical journalist approached him and said, excuse me, sir, do you really think that by standing here you are going to change the world? Change the world? asked the man. I have no intention of changing the world. I just make sure that the world does not change me. And I think this is maybe the utmost we can aspire to hope for in this current time.

24:21And this is to make sure that the world doesn't change us. that with all the temptation, the temptation of fear, the temptation of hatred, the temptation of everything that this terrible reality floods us with, we have to put some power to reject it, to maintain, to keep ourselves as we wanted to be, to be ourselves in a way that will not make us ashamed of the way our country behaves.

24:59Thank you for listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the released Israeli hostage Keith Siegel, Moazim Malik, Chief Executive of Save the Children UK, and the education campaigner Malala Yousafzai. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:15And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.