David Miliband, International Rescue Committee President: It’s a new world disorder

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2:03Caitriona Perry:Hello, I'm BBC News Chief Presenter Katrina Perry and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender equal world would be a a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met David Miliband, president of the International Rescue Committee at the BBC Studios in Washington, D.C.

2:47Caitriona Perry:Miliband, who was previously British Foreign Secretary, first took up the post in 2013 overseeing the New York headquartered organisation whose humanitarian relief operations are active in over 40 war-affected countries. As the world navigates multiple conflicts across the Middle East and Africa, in places such as Sudan, Lebanon and Gaza, the resulting humanitarian crises continue to grow and are being further compounded by cuts to international aid, by the breakdown of the rules-based order and by the knock-on effects of the conflict in Iran on international trade and shipping. This means that aid organisations like the IRC are increasingly having to adapt how they respond.

3:35It's what we call a new world disorder. 60 wars, 120 million people, refugees and displaced, 300 million people hungry, plus another 45 million according to the World Food Programme as a result of the constrictions in the Straits of Hormuz. that's a disordered world and people can inveigh against international institutions as much as they like. But the problem we're facing is not that there's too strong an international system, it's too weak.

4:05Caitriona Perry:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with David Miliband. The International Rescue Committee is active in more than 40 countries. We can't go through each of them, that would take us hours, the state of the world at the moment. But we might just focus, first of all, on the Middle East. We're talking about it morning, noon and night on our news bulletins. An already dire humanitarian situation in many countries there. But what impact do you see the US and Israeli led war on Iran has had in the last few months? I think the crisis in the Middle East is having a double effect. First of all, obviously, on the people in the region, Those who are under fire, whether in Iran or in Lebanon or in Israel or in the Gulf, there are direct effects.

4:51I mean, in Lebanon, a million people displaced from their homes by the conflict. But the second element is the global element. Everyone in America is worried about their gas prices. But obviously, if you're a farmer in West Africa, the fertilizer prices have gone through the roof because 30 % of the world's fertilizer is meant to come through the Straits of Hormuz and is not going through now. If you're desperate for fuel to help you get humanitarian aid around the world, you're facing higher fuel prices. So I feel I understand the pinch that people are feeling in America. But for those in the most precarious positions around the world, this Iran crisis, if you want to call it that, couldn't have come at a worse time.

5:30Because we were already facing an absolutely huge humanitarian toll from 60 conflicts going on around the world before February the 28th when this war started.

5:39Caitriona Perry:You mentioned the large number of people displaced in Lebanon there. How challenging is it trying to offer help to those individuals? Well, Lebanon is always the victim of other people's wars. And here's a prime example of it. I was in Beirut myself five weeks ago. And just thinking about one in five of the population uprooted by a conflict. This is a country that got its credible government last year. So 2025 was a year of some hope in Lebanon. 2026, it's been dashed. Now, getting to the people is not the difficult thing. We're working in government shelters. We're working outside government shelters.

6:20But there's obvious danger because you've seen the death toll mounting even after the so-called ceasefire was declared. So it's not an access problem. If you like, we can get the people, but they're in danger and so are the aid workers who frankly are Lebanese who are working for us.

6:37Caitriona Perry:But they also are being prevented from returning to their homes. You know, Israel has essentially occupied a large part of Lebanon and is telling people they won't be able to go back there for the foreseeable future. How do you navigate that? Well, the most chilling thing is the woman who said to me, she's there with her seven-year-old kid. She used to be in a business that was on the Israel-Lebanon border. They moved to Tyre on the Mediterranean Sea. They've been bombed out of that now. And she said, I don't know if I can ever go home. And that's almost the worst thing that anyone could face.

7:11So it's very, very stark. People feel that they've got no option but to move. They're going only with that which they can carry. And obviously, it's a situation of really stark fear that the people of Lebanon are facing.

7:24Caitriona Perry:It also seems that there's very little progress being made in terms of getting to some resolution regarding Iran. Do you think the international community is doing enough there or is prepared to put enough pressure on? Well, I think it's very important to understand the difference between a cessation of hostilities, a ceasefire and an eventual peace settlement. We're a very, very long way away from this war being well and truly over. Obviously, President Trump is negotiating with the Iranians through the Pakistani good offices. There's a desperate global need for this wound to be staunched. What the people, the civilians who we're serving need is for international support, whether that be in Lebanon or any of the other crises.

8:10Because of course, one of the dangers of this Iran crisis is not just the people it hits locally, not just the international effects on fuel, but what happened to discussion of Sudan? What happened to the discussion of Gaza? What about the people who were kicked into Bangladesh from Myanmar eight years ago. They're no longer in the news. And then, of course, it comes and bites you because there's a long-running crisis in Democratic Republic of Congo. And there's now an Ebola outbreak, a country which was subject to years of war. It's obviously in the scissors effect of rising conflict and declining aid flows.

8:48And that's a very dangerous situation.

8:50Caitriona Perry:And we'll talk about Ebola in just a moment. But just to stick with the Middle East for now. You mentioned Gaza there. Has that become forgotten in the wake of the recent development? Yes, I think it has. I mean, we've got day by day reports of the situation from our teams on the ground. And obviously, it's better to have the reduction in violence than that which existed before the ceasefire. But you've been reporting that there's still large numbers of people being killed. There's still significant military operations. And now there's the suggestion that 70 % of Gaza should be Israeli occupied.

9:23That means 2 million people squeezed into 30 % of a territory that they were previously living across. So I think that the Gaza ceasefire of six months ago, first of all, there's still a lot of military action taking place, but obviously the hope there was of progress. That's a very, very long way off.

9:43Caitriona Perry:What role do you see international law having in these sorts of crises? I mean, there have been various allegations levied at Israel in relation to Gaza, in relation to Lebanon now as well. Well, I think that the only protection that civilians have is the law. But when the law is not obeyed, it's a danger for civilians everywhere. I mean, however you look at it, the attacks on health centres around the Israel, the loss of aid workers, more than 600 aid workers killed, the loss of civilian life, 100 ,000 civilians killed in conflict in 2025. I think come around and saying you're more likely to be killed if you're a civilian in conflict than if you're a soldier.

10:22These are all situations where the protections of international law are not being honored. And that's at a global statistical level. But every one of these statistics has individual people. And of course, we learned the price of not having laws of war before 1945. That's why the laws have been put there. And I think it's incredibly important that whether at the UN or elsewhere, there's a recognition that these laws are all that stands between all of us as civilians, an absolute bedlam.

10:54Caitriona Perry:Do you think, though, those international organizations, those international norms have been undermined in recent years? Oh, undoubtedly. Well, there's no question about it, undoubtedly. I've talked for a long time since when I first started the International Rescue Committee, two of our aid workers were killed while driving an ambulance in northwestern Syria. And they were killed by a missile that came from the combination of the Syrian and Russian forces. And I've talked since then about the growing age of impunity that exists in conflict zones around the world. We're dealing with the symptoms of political failure.

11:30But obviously, the more impunity, the more symptoms there are to deal with.

11:34Caitriona Perry:Do you think so sometimes you're shouting into a void on that, that you're not getting a response Well, I think certainly many of our colleagues feel that they're shouting about a situation on the ground and the politics is going in the wrong direction, not the right direction. And the international laws that were established after 1945, that refugees shouldn't be sent back where it's not safe, that civilians have a right to life as well as to international aid, that hospitals and health facilities should be protected. Those are, they're not grandiose. This is absolute bare minimum that we're talking about of people being able to keep body and soul together during conflict.

12:14And it's incredibly important that those of us with a voice are able to bring testimony of what's actually happening on the ground.

12:23Caitriona Perry:So if international organisations are weakened, what about regional powers? Then again, if we stick to the example of the Middle East for now, we have seen a rallying there of Gulf and Arab states. Are they the ones that have greater power now to improve situations, be it humanitarian, civilian or moving to these negotiations? Well, I think that wherever you look, what you see is fragmentation. You can see fragmentation in the Middle East as the distance between Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates grows. You can see fragmentation around Sudan, the world's largest humanitarian crisis. And I think this is a global order that isn't just becoming two great powers, US and China, not just multipolar, five or six powers.

13:13What I think the Iran war demonstrates is you've got many powers with a lot of leverage over the lives of a lot of people. That's why I think it's right to call it a multi-aligned world. It's a fragmented global landscape in which even a country as powerful as the United States can't click its fingers and get what it wants. That's a different world order. In fact, it's what we call a new world disorder. 60 wars, 120 million people, refugees and displaced, 300 million people hungry, plus another 45 million, according to the World Food Programme, as a result of the constrictions in the Straits of Hormuz.

13:50that's a disordered world and people can invade against international institutions as much as they like. But the problem we're facing is not that there's too strong an international system. It's too weak.

14:04Caitriona Perry:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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16:40Caitriona Perry:but after being beaten by his brother he later left Westminster to utilise his experience on the international stage to oversee the aid and development work of the International Rescue Committee. But despite his global focus his passion for the Labour Party was still evident as we chatted about what might happen next in British politics but ever the politician he would not be drawn on speculation surrounding a possible leadership battle. It would appear this former foreign secretary has not lost his diplomatic skills. OK, let's return to my conversation with David Miliband. While many of the conflicts are about borders, pandemics and disease don't care about borders at all.

17:27Caitriona Perry:And if we look at the case of Ebola currently in the Democratic Republic of Congo and in Uganda. Obviously, there have been many outbreaks of Ebola in the DRC that your organisation has been involved with. What's the assessment of your team on the ground about this particular outbreak? Well, it's bad and it's getting worse and it's catastrophic for too many people. This is a strain of Ebola that isn't picked up by tests. So many people are getting tested, told they're OK, but that was because it was the Zaire strain, not the current strain. That makes it very dangerous. You're absolutely right to say that there's a Ugandan aspect to this, as it's cross-border as well as within the Democratic Republic of Congo.

18:06There's a number of factors that are driving this disease. One, war. There's 120 different militias in Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. Secondly, very weak health infrastructure. So the water and sanitation, the latrines, the basics that help keep people clean and safe. Two-thirds of the people who have so far been hit by this Ebola outbreak are women and girls. So there's an interesting angle there because they're often the carers. And this isn't a disease that's spread by people breathing. It's spread by the touching of bodies, of bodily fluid. So it's very dangerous. It's a 21-day incubation period, so people are moving around without knowing that they've got it.

18:52And that's why we're calling so passionately for, yes, the direct help, PPE, the protective equipment, but also the strengthening of health facilities, the support of health workers, and critically trusted intermediaries, trusted people in the local community say, for goodness sake, don't touch that dead body, because there's all sorts of local practice that needs to be overcome. if this disease is to be contained. It's not just a matter of building health centres. We're at a much more basic level than that.

19:22Caitriona Perry:Do you think have the authorities got a handle on the scale of this yet? Well, I think it's better that you take the words of the Director General of the World Health Organisation. He's the man in the best position. And what he's doing is sounding the alarm. After 36 hours, after the first case, he didn't wait for a committee to sit, He declared an emergency. Quite right. That's the sort of reaction time that we need. He's warning that this is going to get worse before it gets better. And he's pleading, really, in the strongest possible terms for a massive international response on the fronts I've described about PPE, about water and sanitation.

20:03Because this isn't a global pandemic in the making, but it's going to affect tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people.

20:11Caitriona Perry:And how difficult is it to do those things you're describing there, be it PPE, be it contact tracing, quarantine, so on, when you are in an active conflict zone? Well, it's much, much more difficult. I think the contact tracing, that would be great, but we're a long way from that. Those with symptoms we're trying to make sure are kept secluded and separate. Those who are treating them, the health workers, you've got to keep them safe because they're obviously dealing with many patients. The basic water and sanitation infrastructure, latrines, absolutely key. And then this community engagement.