Dmitry Muratov, journalist: Putin can’t claim victory in Ukraine

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0:37hello i'm steve rosenberg the bbc's russia editor and this is the interview from the bbc world service the best conversations coming out of the bbc people shaping our world from all over the world i want to get freedom i like their freedom a gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this exclusive interview, I met journalist Dmitry Muratov at the offices of Norway Gazeta, the newspaper he co-founded.

1:19For more than 30 years, Mr. Muratov has been one of Russia's staunchest defenders of independent journalism, and one of the Kremlin's most outspoken critics. Under his stewardship, the paper became a leading voice for investigations into corruption, human rights abuses, and abuse of power. Courageous, often dangerous reporting, several Novaya Gazeta journalists have been killed because of their work, including investigative reporter Anna Politkovskaya. In 2021, Dmitry Muratov was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his commitment to protecting freedom of expression. Weeks later, the Kremlin launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and the authorities passed a string of new laws to silence criticism of the war and to punish dissent.

2:09The space for independent media in Russia narrowed considerably. Novig Ezele has faced sustained pressure from the authorities, including police searches and repeated legal and political harassment that ultimately forced it to suspend publication in Russia. In our conversation, we discussed the challenges facing journalists reporting in an increasingly restrictive environment, the impact of Russia's war in Ukraine and of the man in power here for more than a quarter of a century, Vladimir Putin. Putin is the most experienced world leader. Very few people have been in power longer than him. He knows the true value of Western governments.

2:55He knows the true value of European leaders very well because, on the one hand, they talk to him about human rights. He laughs out loud because, with the other hand, they sign agreements, or used to sign agreements with Russia on trading oil, gas, diamonds, all that stuff. So when they talk to Putin about European values, he truly laughs out loud. He knows the true value of the people who preach to him those values. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dmitry Muratov.

3:39On the one hand, the war has become normalized, meaning people have grown used to living alongside the war, just as people get used to living next to the sea or next to a volcano. In many cities, people have got used to living alongside the war. Political and public figures have certainly done everything they can to normalize the war. Perhaps you remember, recently at the St. Petersburg Economic Forum, the organizers, in other words, the government, gave a platform to the head of the patriotic TV channel, Czargrat, the well-known conservative activist Konstantin Malafieev. He said the war would last a long time, until 2036, and that there is one good scenario for Russia there, the use of nuclear weapons.

4:36But when they declared the nuclear threat and when Ukrainian drones began flying all the way to major cities with populations of over a million, all the way to the Urals and beyond, the prospect of a nuclear war, and the continuation of this war pleases no one.

5:00Ardent supporters, those who favor continuing it, now only account for maybe 10-15 % of the population, according to our pollsters. Most people, of course, want to end the fighting through negotiations.

5:20And if a year ago our research groups found, yes, everyone wants peace, but on our terms, now that caveat, wanting a rapid ceasefire, but on our terms, that second bit has fallen away for most people. Everyone really just wants a ceasefire.

5:42Does that mean that people in Russia have begun putting two and two together and see a link now between the invasion of Ukraine and their problems today, or not?

5:58Most opinion leaders have been declared enemies of the state, foreign agents, extremists or terrorists, several hundred of them. Figures vary, but a conservative estimate is that a minimum of 1 ,500 people are now in prison since the beginning of the special military operation, having spoken out against current state policy. That's three times more than during the savage days of the KGB in the USSR. Three times more. Messengers and social media platforms have been shut down. Rallies have been banned. Do you know why? You live in Moscow. Why aren't you wearing a mask. Go on. Why aren't you wearing a mask?

6:43We have COVID here. Where? In Moscow, due to COVID restrictions, all rallies and demonstrations are banned. And you are not wearing a mask? Perhaps you didn't know we had COVID here. Well, I'm telling you, we are being denied permission to hold mass events due to COVID restrictions.

7:15There are repressions, political repressions, against freedom of speech, against elections, against the rights of citizens to hold mass events, to such an extent that we don't know what the real public mood is.

7:34They're tightening the screws. But have these four years of war changed Russian society and people here? And are these changes long term or even permanent?

7:50Human and civil rights have been cancelled. Effectively, we have a situation where the constitution isn't being applied, but power has been preserved. This is a new way of governing. I'd like to know, can you have a coup d 'etat without a handover of power? I'd like to ask you that question. I won't answer it.

8:17But we often talk about Putin's Russia or Putin's political system over the 26 years that Putin has been in power. And we often talk about Putin as an all-powerful leader. Is that true? Who's running the country?

8:37Of course.

8:42Sorry, I don't believe all this talk about a split among members of the elite, about secret conspiracies. The country is run by Vladimir Putin. They are frightened of him. And this fear is reinforced in every way by his main support base, his core electorate. That's the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation. The FSB is the parties, the parliament and the government all in one. The unique thing about the way the FSB rules is that they come up with solutions but bear no responsibility for the consequences. When did this happen? I think it happened gradually, but it accelerated six or seven years ago.

9:40I understand that you're a journalist, you're not a psychologist, and it's hard to get into someone else's head. But how far do you think Vladimir Putin is prepared to go to win in Ukraine? And how does he interpret victory? Understand this. There will never be victory. Because what has been going on for almost five years, no matter how it ends, can no longer be considered a victory. It can't be a victory when two Slavic nations have ripped a million people to shreds, or more than a million.

10:31Please tell me, is there any idea in the world worth ripping to shreds a million people in the

10:46Can a government with no upper limit on losses actually win? It seems to me that the situation with Ukraine now is this. You can destroy it, but you cannot conquer it. What do I mean by destroy? Continued escalation all the way to nuclear war. I don't know what's going on in Putin's head. All those political experts who say Putin thinks this. Putin is scared of that. Putin must have decided so and so. They're all charlatans. That's in the same league as astrology. Nobody knows what's going on in Vladimir Putin's head. And I don't know. I see things only as a journalist. I study big data. And since the beginning of the year, the need to use nuclear weapons has been mentioned over 500 times.

11:57You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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13:34While I was interviewing Dmitry Muratov, I couldn't help noticing, on the walls of his office, the photos of Mr Muratov with the late Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. After the fall of the Soviet Union, and after leaving office, Gorbachev had become a stakeholder in the Novaya Gazeta newspaper. And sitting there, it suddenly struck me how much has changed. In Gorbachev, you had a former Russian leader full square behind independent journalism. In Vladimir Putin's Russia, there's been a Kremlin crackdown on independent voices. Doing what Dmitry Muratov does, speaking his mind, publicly criticising the authorities, the war is not without risk.

14:19OK, let's return to my conversation with Dmitry Muratov. And what has shocked you most over the last four and a half years?

14:39That people have got used to the losses, that now a human life counts for nothing, that a life can be disregarded, that the cemeteries are filling up here and there, that people have disappeared from the centre of politics, from the centre of any processes, that policy is no longer about them. I don't understand it. I repeat, what idea is worth people being torn to shreds? Hundreds of thousands of people, a million already for sure wounded and killed on both sides. For what? I just don't get it. But if Vladimir Putin was sitting here, he would probably say that during this time, Russia has become a sovereign country, because you hear the word sovereignty everywhere, every day now.

15:39Look, the word sovereignty and the word security are two new gods. These are not political terms in Russia. They are two religions, the religion of sovereignty and the religion of security. What is sovereignty? It's quite an old concept. It dates back to the 16th century. It means that the government can do what it wants to do. Yes, but there is a constitution that says that the source of that power is the people. Did anyone ask the people about a million people dying? Did anyone ask the people whether or not to send in troops? You see, the second religion is security. Go on, tell me, has it increased?

16:29Has security increased? With the wild berries warehouses being attacked by Ukrainian drones, the petrol crisis, disrupted mobile internet communications, the political prisoners, has security increased here or not? Putin is the most experienced world leader. Very few people have been in power longer than him. He knows the true value of Western governments. He knows the true value of European leaders very well, because on the one hand, they talk to him about human rights. He laughs out loud because, with the other hand, they sign agreements, or used to sign agreements with Russia, on trading oil, gas, diamonds, all that stuff.

17:18So when they talk to Putin about European values, he truly laughs out loud. He knows the true value of the people who preach to him those values.

17:33I believe I have the right not to think about the future. I don't think about the future. I don't see a future. I live today. I don't deserve a future.

17:50Whether or not there will be a nuclear catastrophe, I know that we need to live out what time we have as decent people. And what worries me most right now is that no one in the world has any interest in the political prisoners who were the first to speak out against the land grab in our neighboring country. Two years have passed since the last prisoner release when several civilians were freed. Not a single political prisoner has been released since. There are no negotiations. These are our fellow journalists. Everyone keeps telling me, you know, now is not the right time to talk about them. Well, OK, so when is the right time?

18:37How much time does Nadjezda Bujanova have? She's a doctor, a pediatrician from Moscow. She was charged after someone reported on her to the authorities. She's 70 years old. She's in prison in a penal colony in Kostroma. She's still treating people there. How many political prisoners are there in Russia? There are different estimates. I'll give you my subjective figure. Over 1 ,500 people, such as Evgenia Berkovich and Svetlana Petrichuk, who have already served more than half their sentences. In my opinion, they are outstanding theatre figures. of a European level, a director and playwright. And what about the attitude towards independent media?

19:26We're sitting in the editorial offices of one of the most famous independent Russian newspapers, Novaya Gazeta, which you helped create, a newspaper that wrote quite critically about the government. There is no newspaper anymore. the newspapers' printing houses were nationalized. Putin issued a decree, and the newspapers' printing presses were nationalized, and the website's registration was revoked. By and large, we are, of course, no longer a media outlet. Do we still have readers? Well, yes, we try to make sure we still have readers. I don't want to go into that. Only recently. Barely three months have passed.

20:15early April, April, May, since we were raided. The raid lasted 13 hours, and they didn't let our lawyers in.

20:27Our deputy editor, Oleg Raldugin, is currently under house arrest. We've had 12 people called in for questioning in the last week.

20:39These are the kinds of measures against us that continue, but compared to what's happening to people on the battlefield compared to what's happening with the nighttime shelling of cities. We're not complaining about anything. We're just reporting on it, not complaining. That's our position.

21:04What does that police raid, that 13-hour raid, say about the situation in the country?