Dominique de Villepin: Can Europe become a superpower in its own right?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.

0:47And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F. Kennedy. We explore what was a terrifying moment in history. The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis. How close the world came to nuclear war. And what they had to do to pull it back. from the brink. The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev. All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:13Welcome to Hard Talk from the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacker. My guest in this interview recorded in Paris on March the 10th is an elder statesman of French politics and diplomacy whose persona evokes memories of a bygone age of courtly manners and noblesse oblige. Dominique de Villepin, the son of a diplomat, sometime poet, served in the French Foreign Service before becoming a loyal aide and advisor to President Jacques Chirac. He gained international recognition when, as France's foreign minister in 2003, he delivered a powerful critique of America's impending invasion of Iraq to topple Saddam Hussein.

1:55De Villepin went on to serve as Prime Minister, but he lacked the common touch and failed in his bid to become President. Now France, like much of Europe, is consumed by a new set of foreign policy and security challenges precipitated by decisions taken in Washington. Donald Trump has turned 80 years of assumptions about the unbreakable bond between the US and Europe's democracies upside down. Trump is determined to end the war prompted by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. He's piling pressure on Kyiv in a way that seems to serve Vladimir Putin's interests. How should France and its European partners respond?

2:36Is Europe capable of becoming a global security superpower in its own right? Well, Dominique de Villepin joins me now. Welcome to Hard Talk. Thank you for receiving me. It's great to be talking to you here in Paris. How would you characterize the relationship between the United States, led by Donald Trump, and Europe's democracies right now? It is a big historical swing between the US and Europe. And of course, most of us do see the swing towards Ukraine, which is a huge issue and a big problem for all of us and for Ukraine. But I think there is a second aspect, which is the fact that the U.S.

3:25administration is making also a big swing on democracy. Donald Trump is not defending the idea, the old paradigm of freedom and democracy. This is not at the center of the objective of the U.S. administration. Today, the big paradigm is power, transaction, and a vision of politics which is much closer to illiberal democracy than liberal democracy. listening to the State of the Union speech of Donald Trump. He talked about creating this new, fantastic civilization, advanced, free, dynamic civilization, but also dominant civilization. This is the kind of speech through history we have heard before, and that has led the world to huge catastrophes.

4:21And that's where you can see a link with Donald Trump's speech and Vladimir Putin's speech. Let me stop you for just a second. Are you not in danger of a grave exaggeration? Donald Trump's second term is only weeks old. And you've decided that suddenly the United States is an illiberal democracy? No, I have not decided anything. We have seen that running for years, since the start of the first administration. And we have to consider that the second term is not on the same basis than the first one. Donald Trump is not alone. He has a program and he is working with people who also have an agenda.

5:04Are you saying that when you look at Trump today and the people around him, you see enemies? I won't say enemy because I don't want to put them in a box. I'm saying... But you're putting them in the same box as Russia and China By the sound of it. I'm saying that there is a process which may lead to illiberal democracy, which may change completely the pattern of U.S. identity. And why I'm saying that, we have never seen through history someone like Elon Musk, so close to Donald Trump, someone like G.D. Vance doing what they have done in the U.K. towards Germany, giving a hand to Alice Verde, the head of the IFD, pledging for a new vision for democracy and giving a lesson to Europe.

5:52We have never seen that before. I think that there is the risk of a process and we should not be blind to what is going on and the kind of new America we are seeing rising in front of us. And that's what I really want. But your own president, Emmanuel Macron, went to the White House to talk to Donald Trump. He made nice with Donald Trump, issued some warm words and got a slap on the back. The same with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer. These are politicians in Europe who have to live in the real world. And their view is that whether they like it or not, they have to accept that Donald Trump is the elected president of the United States, and they have to work with him.

6:37If they took your approach, they would be running for the exit. I'm taking my approach because I have a duty as a citizen, a French citizen, a former prime minister. I have a duty. So hang on, but you're not in power. If you were in power in France today... I'm going to answer both questions. My duty is to say there is a risk, a huge risk. Second, if I were in power, of course, I understand perfectly the position of most of the EU leaders. They want an appeasement policy toward the U.S. Why? No, no, no. They don't call it appeasement. No, no, no. I'm calling it. They want. I'm calling it. I'm calling it.

7:13This is my word. Why? Why? Because they know that we should try to have as much as possible of opportunities to work with the U.S. as we can. Because, of course, we have an inheritance, which is NATO. We have a strategy of being an ally of the U.S. And if we can find a way to have the U.S. supporting Ukraine for a little longer, we should take it. But I think everybody has understood that we have been relying on NATO and on a friendship with the U.S. That is something where there is a big question mark today. There is a big doubt. As you look at the Ukraine crisis today, do you think that Donald Trump, in essence, has flipped sides and is working alongside Vladimir Putin for a solution which suits Vladimir Putin?

8:08Well, I have seen no evidence of Donald Trump willing to take into account the interest of Ukraine in the negotiation. I've seen everything he has taken as the support to Russia and nothing as question mark raised towards Russia in terms of concession. He has already given to Russia almost everything Russia is waiting for. So explain it to me. Why do you think Trump is doing that? So why? This is the big question. I think there are different hypotheses. The most interesting hypothesis is the US and Donald Trump's administration using this negotiation as a leverage to have Russia closer to the US and farther from China.

8:57So using the negotiation as a leverage to do what Nixon and Kissinger have done at the beginning of the 1970s is to separate what looks very much like the two allies, dangerous for the US, China and Russia. So you're outlining a geopolitical strategy in Washington, which really doesn't care very much about Europe going forward. Not care at all. So let's build on that idea. The Europeans, looking at what is happening, have promised that they will respond by ramping up defence, security, military spending, and if necessary, they will fill in the hole left by the absence of the United States in support of Ukraine.

9:40Now, you're a former French foreign minister and prime minister. Do you believe it is in any way credible to believe that Europe can replace what the United States has been giving for the past three years? It is going to be very difficult, but it is credible on the middle term, long term. So we have... Forgive me, but the short term is what matters most. Yes. On the battlefield, troops aren't going to worry about what's going to happen in five years. They worry about what happens next month. And that's why, as much as we can, we should try to see and to ask the question to Donald Trump whether he is willing to have a fair peace treaty or a fair ceasefire in order to give credibility to this ceasefire.

10:24The tough questions right now aren't just for Donald Trump, they're for Europe too. I've been looking at France's actual assistance commitments to Ukraine over the past three years. They represent something like 0.2 % of French GDP, far behind Germany, far behind the United Kingdom, are miles behind Poland and the Baltic states. France talks a lot, but France is full of posture, not action. I've said that before you very strongly. I was very puzzled by the Versailles summit a couple of years ago because I thought that on the policy of embargo, we were not strong enough on ourselves. So why should we believe that today, France, according to Emmanuel Macron is poised to send thousands of troops to back a ceasefire if it can be achieved in Ukraine.

11:13First, because we are committed to help Ukraine. We have said that very soon. But that's words. No, no, that's not words. That's a European decision. And we are taking action for that. Second, you are talking about the risk of war. But the risk of war is not the first scenario on the table today. Because Donald Trump, he wants a peace treaty. He wants a ceasefire. And we know that Ukraine has the capability on the reserve they have to stand at least for six months, one year. So we need to support and to increase progressively our help. But hang on, what Donald Trump and I dare say Vladimir Putin see in Europe, and one has to say, particularly in France, is weakness.

11:56You have a government which is hanging on by a thread. It can't really pass measures, including a coherent budget. What you have is a French population that says it supports Ukraine. But when it's asked, do you want to send troops to Ukraine? A lot of that support melts away. But that's why I want to speak up so loudly, because I think we need a national unity. We need a European unity. This, you are right, is not given. But that's a responsibility and a commitment we should have with the British, with all the countries of Europe. And we should have a group of country, which an avant-garde. It's easy to say this when you're not in power.

12:35Can you convince me, for example, let's take an example, Poland. In Poland, they spend far more than France currently can dream of on their defences. But not only that, they're going much further. They're now talking about national conscription so that young people in Poland do military service in preparation for a potential war to come. Is France in any conceivable world prepared to do that? But it's very interesting because you are only considering one scenario, the war scenario. We know that Donald Trump. Well, you know, you describe it as a threat scenario. It is a threat scenario, but but it's it's not the only threat.

13:15I'm saying there is a threat on security and there is a threat on democracy. And we should find both ways. And we should have Europe standing for its own independence. Your words are interesting to me because you're a well-known Gaulist. You know, you, like so many French people for decades, have believed that France must retain complete sovereignty and control of its foreign policy and its security policy. If you're now talking about building a European army, then France is going to have to share, Not least, actually, France may have to share its nuclear umbrella with Germany and other European nations.

13:51In the past, you and others in France have been very jealous about that sharing. I'm not talking about a European army. I'm talking about a European defence. That means nations, chosen nations, the most implicated nations, working together very strongly as an avant-garde. Five countries plus one, maybe the Swedish also. That will take the lead and show the way for the Europeans. And who's going to be in control? Because the French have always been jealous about control. I think that we have something new we should be happy with. Who will be in command? It's a basic question. Germany is now on board.

14:27They have been very reluctant for many years. Now they are on board. They understood that they cannot rely on the US. The British are understanding, even if the tie with the US is very strong. The French, Germany, the British, we are having talks on the perspective of an extension of nuclear dissuasion. You, as a Gaulist, support that? Sharing? Not sharing. No, no, please. Not sharing the decision. I think we should be precise on all that. This is a matter of discussing a European dimension. This has been discussed by General de Gaulle and all the followers since the beginning. Let's talk another lesson of history.

15:07You know as well as I do that in the old days of Henry Kissinger, his jibe at Europe as a geopolitical player was the very simple one. When you need Europe, who are you going to call? Yes. And you're not answering my question. Who's in command of this coalition of the willing that you are talking about? Germany, France, the UK and all the volunteers that want to follow up. All of those countries you just mentioned have subtly different perspectives on all of this. But that's why I'm telling you, the question is, how are we going to unite our forces? But you're not giving me an answer. Yes, it is a process.

15:41You see, I would love to be able to answer, this is going to happen this way. This is not a decision we can take in one week. We know for sure. But also, we have to understand that it is more important to build up the response of Europe to build up on solid basis than to go forward without any method. So what I'm reading from all of your answers, what I'm reading from all of your answers, and again, you're a voice of experience and authority. You're saying NATO, as we understand it, is dead. No, because most of the European country, they still want to work with NATO. They don't. They are in a transitional phase.

16:21But you just, beginning of this interview, you told me the United States was a, quote, a liberal democracy. But we can work together on the European pillar, on the European pillar inside NATO. There is nothing contradictory with that. You see, we should be pragmatic, working on the European pillar, having a European defence organisation on the basis of government. And we should use all these different formats to invent something new. We are in a moment where we need to take responsibility. But we should take responsibility with the support of our countries. And that's where we have also a difficult challenge because this is not only a matter of government.

17:02The challenge in front of us, and that's key for me, is not only the challenge of the security of Ukraine. This is a key question. The challenge is also the stability of Europe. And we see that there are ideological forces, even within Europe that are supporting the US administration. And the US administration is playing with these populist forces to destabilize our regimes. Well, I talked earlier about words and actions not necessarily being, you know, on the same page. I'm wondering whether the words you are delivering to me are going to be followed by actions. But before we end... But this is the responsibility of the people in charge in every single nation of Europe.

17:45This is a battle that needs to be fought. I'm just saying it will be easy if it's just a matter of military leadership. It is much more than that. We need to mobilize our nation on the fact that we are facing a global threat. I want to remind you, first, who are we facing? We are facing Russia, who has not been able in three years to win more than a couple of kilometers in Ukraine. The US has not been able to defeat Afghanistan, neither to defeat Iraq. So power is not everything. Will is everything. This is the key, the will of the leaders and the will of the people. So this is what we should mobilize.

18:32But to do that, we should speak very frankly with our people. You have been outspoken here in France, not just on the issue of Ukraine and what the French and other European governments need to do. You've also been very outspoken on the issue of Israel and what Israel has done in Gaza since Hamas's attacks in October of 2023 on Israelis. Now, you say that France's internal silencing of criticism of Israel represents a, quote, historical scandal, a silence. It is, you said, a taboo. Why do you think that is? Well, why? You could ask the same question to many European countries in Germany and in the UK and in many, many countries.

19:16Why? Because they are just considering the situation, forgetting the fact that what is at stake in the Middle East and in the Gaza question, there are two things which are key. First is the matter of justice. You see, we began to have a huge problem in Ukraine when people understood that we were applying double standard. What's going on in Ukraine? Seeing with one eye. What's going on in Gaza? Seeing with another eye. So we lose the respect in many emerging countries. Second, not only a policy not complying with justice, but not complying with international law. You see, when you look at the policy of Putin, aggression on Ukraine.

20:02When you look at the position of the US administration, they have something in common. They don't respect limits. They don't respect rules. They don't respect international law. So we have to be defending multilateralism and we have to defend the international law. Do you think anybody watching this will believe that Europe has all of the high moral ground when it comes to criticizing double standards and hypocrisy and approaches to international law? But I'm not saying that. I'm saying that our policy for centuries has been based on humanism, universalism, the Enlightenment ideas. And today, if we are not coping with this inheritance, we are going to change of civilization.

20:46We are going to enter in the civilization of force. We are the continent supporting the respect of law and the respect of equality between people. But if you are right, and if the law of the jungle is in essence what we are seeing developing. But I don't understand your question. When you look at Donald Trump putting in question the sovereignty of Greenland, this is not the law of jungle? No, I'm just, I'm just, as a final question, I'm asking you, if you are right, and if we are seeing the rise of a United States, which has more in common, to use your words, with Russia and China than it does with the democracies of Western Europe, then what chance does Europe have in this geopolitical arena to become a global security superpower?

21:39But it's not a matter of chance. It's a matter of duty. This is a necessity for the stability of the world. You see, you are forgetting that the power of Donald Trump and of the U.S. administration is going now to face a lot of limits. They're going to have the midterms. One day, the U.S. people are going to awaken. One day, the counterpowers, the Supreme Court and many others, the judicial system, the media, they are going to wake up. Are they going to let Donald Trump do whatever he wants and to erase the democracy in the U.S.? So I'm counting on the fact that somebody playing such a bully policy cannot do whatever he wants.

22:25He has at one point to face some reaction. The security background is Europe and the ideological battleground is also Europe. And that's why I think we need a roadmap. The roadmap should be very clear. Defend our security and defend democracy. If you do not think that the current leaders of your country and Europe grasp this with the clarity and the passion that you've exhibited today, are you going to put yourself forward again as a potential leader of France? You had ambitions in 2012. They came to naught. Do you still have ambitions to lead France as president? I have no personal ambition, but I want to be part of the battle to awaken the French people and the European people.

23:12This is a battle which is a matter of survival. It's an existential battle for Europe. Do we want to have a Europe that it is going to deny its own traditions, to deny our own culture and ideas? Do we want to resemble to what's going on in the U.S. today or in some authoritarian regime? We don't want that. We need to fight for that. But we need to fight with a lot of cold blood to find a way to do it on the middle and long run and to do it precisely to defend the independence of France and Europe, to defend the democracy of France and Europe and to defend the power of France and Europe. So we should do that, taking into account our own interests.

24:04Dominique de Villepin, we have to end there. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you so much and thank you for this hard talk. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, Hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:46I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962. And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. We explore what was a terrifying moment in history. The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis. How close the world came to nuclear war. And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink. The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev. All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.