Dr. Badr Abdelatty, Egyptian Foreign Minister: we’re pushing hard to end Sudan conflict

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

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1:31spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I met Dr. Badr Abdelati, the Foreign Minister of Egypt in Johannesburg. Dr. Abdelati took up the post last year following a long diplomatic career across Europe, North America and Asia.

2:10He's tasked with representing Egypt and the government of President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who's been in power since 2014 following a military coup the previous year. Egypt is currently facing a number of issues, including an economic crisis at home and political instability along its borders. Libya to the west is still dealing with the fallout from the collapse of the Gaddafi regime nearly 15 years later. And on Egypt's eastern border, much of Gaza lies in ruins. Meanwhile, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has estimated that over 1.5 million Sudanese people have sought safety in Egypt as a brutal civil war rages across the border to the south.

2:53We hope that with direct involvement and the commitment of President Trump in this situation in Sudan, we hope that what happened in Gaza can be repeated in Sudan in order to apply the maximum pressure to implement the humanitarian truth.

3:16Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dr. Badr Abdelati, the Foreign Minister of Egypt. One of the impediments of development on the African continent are the wars and conflicts. Over the last couple of weeks, there's been a big discussion about the conflict in Sudan. Egypt is a member of the Quad, I believe. On the 12th of September, the Quad announced this roadmap to peace, humanitarian truce, a ceasefire as well, possibly, and then a political process thereafter. That was a little over two months ago. What's been achieved since then? Well, we are pushing very hard in cooperation with the Americans, with the Saudis, with the Emiratis, I mean the members of the Quad, in order to apply the maximum pressure to move forward with the implementation of this declaration of the 12th of September.

4:07Unfortunately, the situation deteriorated after the militia took over El Fashir. You're talking about the ISF aligned. Yeah, and as you know, everybody was talking about the atrocities and the massacres, the crimes committed against civilians, El Fashir, and after the fall of El Fashir. So I believe that represents a shock to the international community, to the public opinion, not only in Africa, but also in Europe and the United States. So now everybody is pushing very hard now for putting an end to this ridiculous war in Sudan. Because, you know, what's happening there is systematic destructions of the infrastructure of the people in Sudan.

4:58So Egypt, as you know, is a neighboring country of Sudan. And we have 1 ,000 kilometers of border with Sudan. Sudan is a sisterly country to Egypt. And as you know, we are hosting around 5.5 million Sudanese living in Egypt who fled their country due to the escalation there. And that's why we are pushing very hard in order to put an end to this conflict and in order to preserve the future of Sudan, to preserve also the lives of Sudanese. Allow me to get some clarity, because there's been confusion over, you know, how effective the Quad has been working. When you see President Trump at the White House with the Saudi crowd prints announcing that he's going to get involved in Sudan, one wonders, has the U.S.

5:52been with the Quad or was President Trump announcing a new initiative? Well, as you know, United States is part of Quad. And when President Abdel Fattah Sisi hosted the summit meeting in Sharm el-Sheikh to end the Israeli war on Gaza, you know, he asked during his bilateral meeting with President Trump that we ask the president to engage directly in this conflict in order to put an end to the current violence and the escalation in Sudan. So it's true that the United States is part of the Quad, but to have the direct involvement of President Trump, this is very important. It worked before in Gaza, and thanks to him, and it was only because of his involvement, his engagement, we managed to stop this ugly war.

6:49So we hope that with this direct involvement and the commitment of President Trump in this situation in Sudan. We hope that what happened in Gaza can be repeated in Sudan in order to apply the maximum pressure to implement the Quad declaration, humanitarian truth. So you still believe the Quad's plan can still work? Of course. Because it sounds like it's faltered with the fall of El Fasha and the long delay since the announcement was made. Yeah, of course, this is, you know, the only game in town now. I mean, this is the only roadmap we have. We have to move forward with the truce and the ceasefire as soon as possible and to have humanitarian safe haven, humanitarian accessibility in all Sudan.

7:46And that should lead quickly and as soon as possible for the initiation of a political process where everybody will be participating without any exclusion. And, of course, it should be under Sudanese ownership and having or building a new Sudan, a new democratic Sudan, where it's including everybody in Sudan, all different tribes, all different factions and different players. Is General Burhan, who you met recently, ready for the humanitarian truce and the ceasefire? Yes, of course he's ready. So why has he not signed on, at least to the best of our knowledge? Yes, I mean, because as I mentioned, we need also a safe haven in Darfur for those people, the tribes, the African tribes who fled their homes because of the massacres, because of what happened there.

8:50He needs a sort of safe haven for those people to be safe there and that will lead to the complete ceasefire and then the initiation of the political process. Is that what he told you? And what else did he tell you in your most recent meeting? I mean that he's ready. He's very keen to put an end to this war And we have to work together on that because, you know, this is a systematic destruction of the infrastructure of Sudan and of the future of Sudan and the Sudanese people. And we will not allow this to happen. We are very worried about what's happening now in Sudan. That's why in Egypt we are insisting on, as well as within the Quad, on the sovereignty of Sudan, territorial integrity, and unity of Sudan.

9:52We will not under any circumstances accept any division or disintegration of Sudan because that will create more and more crisis to come in the future. And I believe you've been very clear on that. I've actually heard that in previous interviews that you've given. What other media is reporting is that General Burhan is not ready to engage in a process that recognizes the RSF as an equal player, including a political process as well. Can you confirm that? Because you're saying his demands are different. No, we have to be careful here. First of all, we have to differentiate between the state, between the nation state, between the national institutions and any other entities.

10:35You cannot put on equal footing the national institutions with any other entities. And our position is very clear. We are against any parallel entities. We have one Sudan, one government, one authority, and this is very, very important. So we cannot put on equal footing national institutions, including the army with other entities. So how then will the Quad work this out? Because the RSF believe that they have a legitimate claim to be a part of all these discussions moving forward. In fact, they've agreed to the humanitarian truce. So are you saying that in any negotiations, the army would have a higher sort of negotiating or discussion power because you're calling them a national entity?

11:26The national army is, of course, the main guarantor for the unity of Sudan, for the preservation of the sovereignty of Sudan. Any other entities, of course, they will be party of the political process. I say very clearly no exclusion. Everybody will be party to this political process. It will be a Sudanese-owned process and inclusive. Everybody will be there and without any interference from any external factors. And the Sudanese, they have to decide their own future by themselves. You know, this is the position. And as I mentioned, this is what we agreed upon in the Quad declaration. In the Quad declaration and at the time when you were meeting to put it together, did you discuss accusations made against certain members of the Quad, specifically the UAE, about their involvement in supporting the RSF?

12:29Well, our dialogue is very constructive. How, for the four countries, the member countries of the Quad, how can we work together in order to implement what was agreed upon on the 12th of September? I ask that question because human rights groups, the U.S. Senate also is considering a bill to halt arms sales to the UAE until it ceases or reduces engagement with the RSF. Again, I ask, isn't it confusing that you have a member of the court that is on one hand accused of being actively supporting one side of the conflict and on the other hand is a mediator as well? Well, this is not true, this kind of reports, and we have a very strong relationship with the United Arab Emirates.

13:18The U.S. Senate believes it's true, and many other groups. They are our brothers and sisters. We are working with them, cooperating with them, and we are part of this platform, to this mechanism called Quad, and we all subscribe it, we all supportive of this Quad declaration, and we believe that through cooperation and coordination among the four countries of the Quad, I believe that we can put an end to this ongoing tragedy in Sudan.

13:56You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story? What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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15:17For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Dr. Badr Abdelati, the Foreign Minister of Egypt. Now, I've been trying to get this interview for some time now, and the sense that I got when it happened is that the foreign minister is clearly a man at ease with the media. And he must be because his country has been involved in mediation and navigating complex geopolitics in the Middle East, in Sudan and elsewhere. And his role is to communicate his country's position on these challenges and others, making him a very busy man. OK, let's now return to my conversation with Dr. Badr Abdelati. I apologize if I seem that I'm belaboring the point, but just to get clarity.

16:01There are those who feel that the reason achieving peace in Sudan is difficult is because some of those involved in peacemaking are also supporting either side. For example, Egypt has been accused of providing some sort of support to the Sudanese army. It might be weapons, it might be diplomatic or intelligence support. Is there any truth to that? Absolutely not true at all. I mean, our position is very clear. This is a principled position in our foreign policy, not to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, including neighboring countries, of course, because foreign interference is not good, especially with regard to fueling the conflict.

16:45This is a red line for us where we need de-escalation. So this is our clear-cut position to refrain from interfering. We are there only to help to use our God offices in order to bring everybody to the table to work out a sort of agreement and understanding which will preserve the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Sudan. Okay. And even as we broaden beyond Sudan, there have been discussions and concerns in the recent past about tensions in the Horn of Africa. Minister, I know this is something you've been engaged on. I'd be keen to hear your views. We've seen Egypt increasingly seeming close or aligning with Somalia, with Eritrea, and the squabble or the concerns about the dam that Ethiopia recently announced as operational coming to the fore as well.

17:40What is the position of Egypt on these matters? Are you able to give us clarity? Well, we have two levels here of analysis. The first one is related to our bilateral relations with Ethiopia regarding this dam. We consider it as a unilateral action. It's illegitimate. It's not in accordance with international law. international law is saying clearly that any transboundary river should be governed by the principles of the international law, which means period notification, which means no causing harms. But what happened, you know, with this Ethiopian dam was a unilateral action outside the international law and it's unfortunate development.

18:34And again, it's a unilateral action. We don't recognize it because they didn't consult with us. We conducted more than 13 years of negotiations without reaching any agreement. And that was unfortunate because we negotiated with good faith. But But unfortunately, the other side used this period of negotiation to create facts on the ground and to impose his will. And for us, we announced it very clearly a year ago that the negotiations track reached a complete deadlock. And that is the situation till today. Absolutely. There are no back-channel communications with Ethiopia and none of the above.

19:25all frozen, all stopped, and we preserve the full rights to defend our national interest and our water security if any harm happened in and in accordance to international law. For your own information, Egypt is the only country in the Nile Basin region which is relying on the Nile as the only source of water by 98%. 98, the only country. And we have no other sources. You speak of Egypt weighing its options within international law. What are those options at this time? Well, I mean, if any harm happened, then, you know, we have to defend our interests. But in accordance to... Militarily, diplomatically, it would be a bit more specific.

20:17I mean, in accordance to the international law and the UN charter. That's it. And any talks? Ethiopia have said, come, let's talk. We have excess energy that we can now share with you. You're building a new nuclear power plant. We talked, my friend, for 13 years, and we reached nothing, zero, nothing. So, I mean, we will not continue in this endless track and giving the other side the opportunity to create more facts on the ground. Is this something the world should be concerned about at a time when we have conflicts in Sudan and elsewhere? Absolutely. What should they do? What should the international community do if the two parties are unable to resolve this?

21:03We went to the Security Council because the Security Council is the main platform for dealing with issues related to international peace and security in the world. And this is a clear threat to international security and peace. And that's why, you know, unfortunately, nothing is moving for the discussions, for the negotiations and for the international community. And for your own information, in February 2020, we reached an agreement. We reached an agreement with the mediation and support of the World Bank and the Secretary of Treasury of the United States and under the full sponsorship of President Trump during his first term.

21:56and it was not ideal for us but it was the best for everybody for Ethiopia for Egypt and for Sudan and at that time our foreign minister went to the Washington DC to sign and unfortunately the Ethiopian minister did not show up. So is that linked in any way to why you're deploying troops to Somalia because there are some who feel that you're showing up your presence in the region. Mix apple with orange. There's no truth. I'm asking on behalf of audiences. I mean, it's only, you know, we are participating in the African Union mission in Somalia to help Somalia in defeating terrors. We are there based upon a request from Somalia and the request from the African Union.

22:47So... Despite concerns raised by Ethiopia. No, I mean, let's be very frank. I mean, we've been welcomed and asked by the Peace and Security Council of the African Union and a written request from the Somalia government. So we are not imposing ourselves. They are urged us to come and to help them in order to keep the territorial integrity of Somalia and to preserve its sovereignty and to defend them against al-Shabaab and against the other terrorist organizations. And I'm not able to release without getting your final thoughts on the situation in the Middle East. A lot of what is happening there partly took place in Egypt with that summit that you referenced earlier on.

23:39What did you make of the UN Security Council's adoption of the peace plan, championed by President Trump, that we saw recently? Is that a step in the right direction? Well, it's important. It's a step in the right direction. It's true. And we need to make it applicable. We need to implement it on the ground. And, of course, to move forward with the second phase of the Trump peace plan. The second phase means, of course, withdrawal from Gaza by the Israeli forces, means, of course, dealing with issues such as early recovery, reconstructions of Gaza, and deployment of the ISF, the International Stabilization Forces, on the ground.

24:27Will you contribute troops to? We will see. You know, I mean, this is an important issue, of course. We need the monitors to be deployed to monitor the ceasefire. And for us, we are providing support for command and control, for logistics. And again, the implementation of the second phase is very important.

24:56Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with British Home Secretary Shabana Mahmoud, Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Hassan Sheikh Mohamoud, the President of Somalia. Till next time, it's bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:14And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action. bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.