Dr Tedros, WHO: Viruses are invisible enemy

0:00Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:29Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching?

1:17Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Listen to Washington Wise, an original podcast for investors from Charles Schwab to hear the stories making news in Washington right now. Host Mike Townsend, Charles Schwab's Managing Director for Legislative and Regulatory Affairs, takes a non-partisan look at the stories that matter most to investors, including policy initiatives for retirement savings, taxes and trade, inflation concerns, the Federal Reserve, and how regulatory developments can affect companies, sectors, and even the entire market. Mike and his guests offer their perspective on how policy changes could affect what you do with your portfolio.

1:54Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Download the latest episode and follow at schwab.com slash Washington Wise or wherever you listen.

2:24Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.

2:29Justin Webb:This is a war. The first thing that we want is a war to end.

2:36Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:For this interview, I spoke to the head of the World Health Organization, Dr Tedros Adnohom Ghebreyesus. He's just returned from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where a rare species of the Ebola virus has been spreading rapidly. There have been increasing case numbers and cross-border transmission to Uganda. He says Ebola had a big head start, and that's partly because it's an area of conflict and mass displacement which creates an environment in which viruses can spread easily. It's also because of a limited testing capacity, which meant this particular species wasn't detected at first. The response has now been ramped up with more testing and medicines, but transmission is still increasing.

3:18Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:In this interview, Dr Tedros Adnohom Ghebreyesus claims governments are focusing too much on defence spending and he makes an impassioned plea for countries to allocate more to global health and preventing future pandemics.

3:32Justin Webb:So what I see is globally, globally, there is more spending in defense and less spending in global health or in public health or in health security, which makes us vulnerable. So our leaders should understand that because the invisible enemy could be more impactful. Imagine, have you ever seen a war in recent memory that killed 20 million people? Why can't we come to our senses?

4:10Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:He says his organisation is making more efforts to engage with communities because there is currently a lot of mistrust, misinformation and suspicion of outside authorities. The Ebola virus was first discovered in 1976. There have been seven previous outbreaks. The largest outbreak took place just 12 years ago, between 2014 and 2016, in West Africa. It killed more than 1 ,000 people. The head of the WHO tells me that while the regional risk of this outbreak is high, there is a low chance of it being spread worldwide. But he argues that we've reached a position where we are not taking seriously the threats that are around the corner.

4:53Justin Webb:I'm really worried. It's not about viruses. Yes, of course, my responsibility is viruses, you know, health security. But I am worried about how we're handling even geopolitics, because there is always a solution, a political solution to our problems, geopolitical problems. But I don't see that there is lack of leadership globally. And you can see the rise in conflict everywhere. And instead of having a political solution, our leaders are resorting into trying to resolve them through might.

5:37Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Dr Tedros Adnohom Ghebreyesus.

5:44Justin Webb:I think having first-hand account of what's happening is very important. Of course, many people advise me not to travel because of the risks, not only Ebola, but because of the active armed conflict in the area. But that's what we do in WHO, whether there is active armed conflict or Ebola, we go to help people. So I was glad to be on the ground.

6:19Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You've talked about the importance of community trust, Dr. Tedros. What did you see when it came to that trust? Because there are a lot of reports, aren't there? Well, more than reports. You can see that in some communities, there is not the kind of trust that there needs to be. Yeah, so I was, as I said, I was on the ground and talking to people, to community leaders, to members of the Bunya town.

6:54Justin Webb:And I was actually hopeful about the future. But at the same time, I had serious concerns. The hope came from, you know, especially meeting the community leaders and saying to us that there is a lot of misinformation, as you rightly said. There is even fear in the community, but this is because of misinformation. information and that if they could be equipped with the right information if they could be trained that they could talk to the community have engagements with the community and reverse reverse that so that's one of the things that gave me hope because when community leaders are involved i think they can change the tide but at the same time the other thing that gave me hope was around five people have recovered from Ebola.

7:54Justin Webb:And with the representative of the Ministry of Health, we gave them certificates actually that they recovered from Ebola. And I think that's very helpful to the community because with the right care, people can survive. So care saves lives, even without, by the way, treatment, the medical care they received. And that's why we encourage people to come forward as early as possible, report to health facilities, because if they do that, they will get the right care and they can recover or survive. So that's what gave me hope. But at the same time, there was a real concern. I was worried about many of the things I observed on the ground.

8:53Justin Webb:There was active conflict. Even the governor didn't want me to stay overnight there because it was risky for me. And not only that, there is displacement and people, you know, move. And it's very difficult to do contact tracing and isolating those who have, you know, some risks or contacts, because when they move, it's very difficult to do that. So the displacement is one of the problems. But with the displacement, by the way, the displacement not only affects the communities there, but it affects also the health workers, including, you know, the health workers also are displaced and that affects the service.

9:43Justin Webb:And then, of course, there is a chronic humanitarian problem because of the conflict. And many people are dependent on food aid. So these are the layers of complexity that affect our response on the ground. And that's what I taught actually were some of the concerns that may affect the response to this Ebola outbreak. And addressing those issues will be very important.

10:22Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You mentioned humanitarian aid. There have been cuts, of course, to the aid budgets, both the United States and the United Kingdom as well, and other countries as well. Is that having an impact? In other words, can you say with any degree of certainty that the cuts in aid have made this outbreak worse?

10:46Justin Webb:By the way, the first thing I would like to say is United States and United Kingdom are helping. We're working with them, collaborating with them, and they're already investing. And when I arrived in Kinshasa, I met Jenny Chapman, the minister, and we had a very good discussion. And I was very much impressed by the commitment of the minister government of the United Kingdom. And I had also contact with senior officials from the United States, and they promised to me that they will support. And they are already supporting, and they will increase their financial support. Of course, the funding cuts in 2025 was a challenge.

11:38Justin Webb:At the Munich Security Conference, which I attended in 2025, by the way, I saw, I witnessed that many countries from high-income countries, it's not about just the US and UK, but many high-income countries have been announcing at the Munich Security Conference their increase in defense. expenditure from 1 % to 3%, from 3 % to 5%. And I was so worried. As you may know, I was foreign minister myself. And I approached some of the foreign ministers. And I said to them, you know, what's happening? Why this significant increase in defense spending? And they said, oh, we have consents. You know, there is this geopolitical change which is affecting many of our countries, the geopolitical tension.

12:47Justin Webb:So we have to protect ourselves and we have to invest in defense. So that's why. Then I told them, please, please don't forget about the invisible enemy. And they said, what do you mean by that? And I said, the invisible enemy like COVID, a virus that could wreak havoc. You know, it killed approximately now around 20 million people, the COVID pandemic. So while investing on your defense, this is actually to kill humans, please don't forget the common enemy that we have. A virus that doesn't care about our borders, our politics, or about whatever excuses that we might have, we have to be also prepared for that.

13:49Justin Webb:So while preparing for what you think is your threat, you have to also be prepared for a threat which is common to humanity. Do you think this is a virus? There should be a balance. So what I see is globally, globally, there is more spending in defence and less spending in global health or in public health or in health security, which makes us vulnerable. So our leaders should understand that. because the invisible enemy could be more impactful. Imagine, have you ever seen a war in recent memory that killed 20 million people? Why can't we come to our senses? So that's what I would like to say.

14:45Justin Webb:Actually, the investment in health security is so small compared to our spending in defense, to kill each other, actually. You know, in 2025, the expenditure in defense, in military expenditure, reached$2.7 trillion, while the expenditure in health declined. Is that justifiable? I don't think so. while viruses kill more people than anywhere in recent memory. And that's well documented, and that's the truth. If our leaders want to deny it, they can deny it. But that's the truth. My advice is they can have concerns in terms of their security, their borders, I understand. But they should know that more impactful is actually the unknown or the invisible enemy that can affect humans equally.

16:01Justin Webb:And that should be taken seriously. And we should really learn from our mistakes. I want our leaders to be serious on this.

16:13Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You're listening to The Interview on the BBC World Service.

16:40Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. so cut the bull spend advertise on LinkedIn the network that works for you spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast that's linkedin.com slash broadcast terms and conditions apply find the family fun you're looking for in Missouri whether your crew is searching for this up for something more like this seeking adventure like this or just really really need something more like this your family will find the perfect vacation in Missouri Missouri it's the getaway that gets all of you plan your family fun at visitmo.com I've been talking to Dr Tedros Adnoham Ghebreyesus, who is head of the World Health Organization.

18:06Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:He has recently been in the areas affected by the latest outbreak of Ebola. Ebola has been causing havoc, havoc that we haven't seen across the world and which he says we're not going to see across the world. But he says it is a very big problem in the region where the latest outbreak has been. And potentially, of course, it could spread beyond that. This form of Ebola, this particular Ebola virus, does not at the moment have any vaccine. And that's one of the things that he has addressed, is how to get local communities to do the things that need to be done in order to stop it spreading. And that is not easy for two reasons.

18:47Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Number one, he says, because it's a war-torn area and people are anyway distrustful and it's not easy to keep track of to monitor those who are going from one place to another. But the other thing is that people tend to react to Ebola by wanting, in quite understandable ways, to deal themselves with those who have succumbed to it. And one of the problems is that it's spread through bodily fluids. And one of the difficulties that he has faced is in persuading local people that they need to do what the local health authorities are telling them they have to do in order to stop the spread. And that is something that he is very keen that the message gets across locally, but also regionally and potentially around the world as well, if this particular virus does ever escape.

19:39Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:One of the other things that he's wanted to talk about, and he was very passionate about this, is that he believes in a wider sense the world is not just taking this Ebola virus not seriously enough, but is actually taking the threat of future viruses not seriously enough. And there is, he says, a real problem here. The world is spending an awful lot on defence spending and it's something that here in Britain but also right across Europe the conversation is very much about at the moment how defence spending can be increased and what needs to be cut in order to pay. And what he suggests is what's being cut at the moment is world health spending and that that is going to be something that turns out to be a terrible mistake.

20:30Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Anyway, let us return now to my conversation with Dr Tedros Adnohom Ghebreyesus. Do you think this Ebola outbreak might spread worldwide?

20:41Justin Webb:I don't think so. Because, you know, Ebola is transmitted through contacts. So the global risk is low. WHO has said it many times. The regional risk is high, but the global risk is low because of its nature. It's not airborne. But what I am saying is with the level of preparedness we have, with the level of investment we have, God forbid, if we have an airborne like flu virus that could be a pandemic in just a few weeks, I think we are not ready for that. And our leaders are not ready for that. Because the investment is more biased towards killing each other rather than preparing ourselves to fight a shared common enemy like a virus.

21:42Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:You sound, from what you are saying, genuinely worried about the attitude the whole world has, not just to Ebola, but more widely, as you've been saying, to other potentially worldwide threats. Is that right, that you believe we have reached a position where we are not taking seriously again the threats that might be around the corner?

22:09Justin Webb:Yeah, I'm really worried. It's not about viruses. Yes, of course, my responsibility is viruses, you know, health security. But I am worried about how we're handling even geopolitics, because there is always a solution, a political solution to our problems, geopolitical problems. but I don't see that. There is lack of leadership globally and you can see the rise in conflict everywhere. And instead of having a political solution, our leaders are resorting into trying to resolve them through might. And I don't think that kind of attitude is helpful. So that's what I'm saying. But that lack of peace, that lack of focus on peace, because peace is the best medicine, is affecting everything.

23:14Justin Webb:If you take, for instance, Ituri province, the DRC, it's the conflict which is affecting everything. Because of conflict, there is displacement. Because of conflict, there is attacks on health care. Because of conflict, there is no investment in the area. Because of conflict and lack of investment, there is hunger in the area. And because of conflict, you can imagine a long list of evil in the region. That's why we always say in WHO, by the way, peace is the best medicine. So unless our leaders are serious to address their political problems or differences through political solutions, and there is war and there is conflict, it affects everything.

24:06Justin Webb:It affects health. It affects the economy. It affects everything. So that's what I'm saying. So we have to be serious about peace. We have to be serious about cooperation. We have to be serious about political solutions. We have to be serious about global leadership.

24:29Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:We heard from the chief of the defence staff in the UK, and I think if he were addressing you directly now, he would say, yes, he is serious about peace, but the only way to guarantee peace at the moment, given the threat from Russia, is a big increase in military spending. In other words, what you are advocating, which is a greater spending on other things, including health, just is not feasible in the world we live in.

25:00Justin Webb:I think you can strike a balance. And I think if people are willing to invest in finding a political solution, it can happen. The most courageous choose peace. That's what I believe. So I'm not undermining the concerns of some people. But what I'm saying is, one, you can strike a balance. So you don't need to undermine health security. To invest in. You know, the other security. But at the same time, if you're committed to a political solution, there is a possibility to find a path, to find a solution. So that's what I'm saying. So it's a matter of finding a balance and it's a matter of more investment in political solutions.

26:08Justin Webb:It's possible.

26:13Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the president of the International Rescue Committee, David Miliband, the former Sudanese leader, Aisha Musa, and the writer, Maggie O 'Farrell. Until the next time, bye for now.