Ellen Johnson Sirleaf: How to rebuild a country

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm Rahul Tandon, the BBC presenter, and this, of course, is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, known as the Iron Lady of Africa and the former president of Liberia.

2:05You'll hear her views on how she rebuilt a war-torn country, how she carved out success and tolerated adversity. Born in 1938 to a prosperous family in the capital city of Monrovia, she experienced financial hardship and motherhood before her 20th birthday. Driven by an unshakable commitment to education, she obtained a scholarship to study in the United States, after which she served in the Liberian Ministry of Finance. She quickly made a name for herself as an outspoken critic of the military government. From that moment onward, her life was marked by persecution and exile, as well as success as a leader at the World Bank and United Nations.

2:49In 2005, she became president of Liberia, making her the first woman to be elected the leader of an African country. By then, Liberia was reeling from a vicious civil war that had torn at the country's social fabric and economy for over a decade. Drawing from her international expertise, she tackled Liberia's suffocating national debt and secured millions of dollars of foreign investment and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2011. But what was the journey that took her from an outspoken schoolgirl to Harvard-educated economist taking on a devastated country? I learned that adjustment, mental adjustment, is very capable if you have that base of an education.

3:40And if you have parents who have the values, not only of education, but value of your roots, your commitment to improvement of things, like what was required for our grandmothers. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Rahul Tandon. Let me say this. Perhaps I had an unusual background. And my father was a lawyer, a prosperous lawyer, but he called himself the people's lawyer. And my mother's background was indigenous. She was born in one of our rural counties. But I say it was unusual because my mother was read by one of the Congo families, one of the repatriated slaves who settled here.

4:34Both of them were educated by the ruling elites, let me put it that way. The fact that your parents managed to get educated, which was unusual in Liberia at that time, did that mean that they valued your education even more? They knew that they had rural background. And the only way they would prosper was to be educated and to be accepted in an environment of, if I may put it this way, the rulers. And because they were educated, they put an emphasis on education for their children. Education leads, doesn't it, often to prosperity. And so your story was one where your parents had some prosperity, but then something happened that made that life more difficult.

5:29That's correct. My father became the first indigenous member of the House of Representatives and our lifestyle was comfortable because of that. It wasn't until he got ill. He remained ill for seven years. My mother was taking care of him until he finally died. But she also knew that prosperity was now fast moving into poverty because to educate us, she had to do what other women who were not part of the ruling elite did, sell things like bread and other things. She had a school because she was an educated person. She had children in neighborhoods that went to her school. And so my education was always, always the focus of that.

6:18Although my two grandmothers were totally illiterate. And one other thing, let me just say about them two that has lasted with me, is that they never forgot their roots. We spent every vacation with our illiterate grandmother doing farming, doing things. That's how we learned to be athletic, you know, swimming and all of that. And so it was a different kind of family because they realized what they were. They were not usual. We all got educated because my mother stayed with an education. Subsequently, if we're moving into me, I got married very early, right after high school. How old were you then?

7:0317 or so. In your case, at that point, when you moved from prosperity to poverty, how crucial do you think that was in shaping you as an individual, shaping your resilience? Very important. I learned mental adjustment is very capable. If you have that base of an education and if you have parents who have the values, not only of education, but value of your roots, your commitment to improvement of things like what was required for our grandmothers. You are the first elected female leader in Africa. At what point in your life did you realize that things were probably going to be much harder for you because you were a woman?

7:54Well, the resilience for me started in high school before marriage because my mother had a German father. I was fair in complexion and always was teased. And I developed that resilience. I developed that fighting mood and I took the activism of not only protecting myself from, you know, from any jokes or anything like that, but also use my commitment to education as instilled by my mother to do well in school and to be an activist, to stand up, to challenge teachers. And I think that stayed with me throughout my life. So you were challenging teachers, which I'm sure some teachers wouldn't have liked.

8:43Where does that political journey start? Was there a moment somewhere that made you think, I'm not going to just challenge teachers, I'm going to challenge other people in society as well? After marriage at 17, I had four sons. So that period of my life was dedicated to taking care of my four children. My husband was returning to Wisconsin to complete his master's. And I got a scholarship to go. I went to Madison Business College and I did my bachelor's in finance and returned to the country. And that's how my career in the financial world started. And I had positions in the Ministry of Finance here.

9:29and ultimately, because I was so involved in working, it broke up my marriage. You had held prominent positions in the government. You were Minister of Finance, weren't you, from 1980? Was there a moment where you thought, look, I don't just want to run one bit of the government. I need to run all of it. I think the first time that I demonstrated ambition, leadership quality, when I spoke at the graduation ceremony of my alma mater, the College of West Africa, and that speech was given in 72. But that speech stirred the country. And at that point, a cabinet was held to imprison me, but it was not successful.

10:17And at that point, I think I became sort of a person to watch because that speech had laid bare the shortcomings of the government. So I think that started either my own views that leadership had to be pursued and strengthened in different ways and also had drew a lot of public attention to me. But just that moment where you begin to think that you do have those leadership qualities to lead Liberia, was that a difficult process? Was it a difficult decision to come to to say, I want to lead a country when you would have been the first female leader in Africa, elected leader in Africa? At this stage, my intent was not presidential.

11:09My intent, clearly stated in that speech I made, was change. Change because of my background. And I knew that those who did not have the opportunities of my parents would never get ahead. So it was more like changing the country and calling for structural and societal change. Were you scared because you were challenging people who didn't like to be challenged? Well, there were other activists. I cannot claim to have been the only one. But I say, were you scared because you were arrested? You were put in prison. You were sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years, weren't you? Yes. I mean, after that speech, I had to leave the country.

11:54And I was one of the young people recruited by the World Bank as sort of young emerging African public servants. And that's when I left the country. You win the election, don't you, in 2005 as the first elected female head of state in Africa. That must have been a moment of huge pride for you. I had to. I was the first. But just to become president is where the most important part of it was the support of women, the Liberian women, mobilized themselves to say no men will be president in this country anymore. They wanted a different country. They wanted a different ruler. And it also were women from other places.

12:43There are many women in Africa who also rallied, supported, worked with the women of Liberia to make this happen. That's why today I have a Center for women development because I owe it to the women.

13:00You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

13:43With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the more than the score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the bbc's expert sports journalists more than the score for the bbc world service listen now search for more than the score wherever you get your bbc podcasts

14:20We've been hearing from Liberia's 24th president, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, as she takes us on the journey that took her from persecution and exile to being the first woman to be elected leader of an African country. When she picked up the reins, the country had been ravaged by two civil wars. By the time they ended in 2003, a quarter of a million people had been killed. The country was beset by corruption and debt and in dire need of rebuilding. But how do you do that? How do you rebuild a devastated country? And how do you reaffirm its image on the international stage? OK, let's return to my conversation with Ellen Johnson Sirleaf.

15:05It's difficult, isn't it, when you come in to try and change a structure that has been dominated by men for such a long period of time. How difficult was that for you? How challenging was that for you? Not so much because it was run by men, but because the country with two decades of destructive conflict left Liberia with all of its physical infrastructure destroyed. It's institutional, non-functional. And so a nation in which younger people had not had education for more than a decade. So it was the difficulty of what I inherited I found more captivating and more of the importance that I should stress.

15:51I want to pick up on that point with you, because we have many parts of the world at the moment that are faced with similar situations to the one that you came into power with, trying to rebuild a country after conflict. We look at Ukraine, don't we? We look at what's happening in Gaza, Sudan. What would you say to people running government organizations in those areas? How easy is it to rebuild after you've been through the sort of conflict that Liberia went through? I think it first takes personal commitment. It takes a vision and it also takes a record of one who values public service. It takes money as well, though, doesn't it?

16:30It does take money, but with values, you are likely to be able to attract some of the resources required to rebuild. But that requires personal integrity, personal influence with others whom you lead. So you're not alone. You came to a country whose infrastructure had been destroyed after years of civil war. How easy was it to get money? What do you do in that situation? Do you go to other governments? Do you go to other African countries? Do you go to the private sector? All of the above. I was helped by the fact that I had international service. So I was known. I had worked and had established a record, a record of integrity, a record of efficiency and commitment in all of those places, whether it was Citibank or whether it was the United Nations.

17:23So I could reach to any of those places. Even with that record, though, you would have sat, I'm sure, in many meetings where people would have said no to you. No, we can't give you the money that you need. And when people continually say no, how difficult is it to keep going there? I think we established our vision. We established our agenda. The first thing was our debt. So I had a very good team. And I must say that all of my team, as much as possible, were young people. We put women in charge of all of the key places, like the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Commerce.

18:03These were all women. One of the first things I did to address the debt was to call for a international conference on Liberia's indebtedness. We had that meeting in Washington, D.C., and I had all of the major creditors, many of whom were private creditors. Most of them were represented at that meeting. And Condoleezza Rice was then Secretary of State in the George Bush administration. And she stood up at that meeting and made one statement. The United States will cancel the debt to Liberia. All of it. And when she spoke, everyone then followed. Sorting the finances was clearly an important part of getting Liberia back on track.

18:55But we all in life, don't we, look back with regret sometimes on things that we could have done, should have done. Is there anything for you in your term as presidency that you look back on now and think I would have done that differently? I wish I had done more about the social aspects of the country, addressing the many young people whom we never provided the type of support they needed. Yes, we did to education and health, and we made great advances in those areas, but we never addressed the pains of conflict and the attitudes that emerged from two decades of war. We did not address the mental anguish of young people and provide them with the kinds of support that they perhaps required.

19:45Can I talk to you more generally now? Donald Trump is putting tariffs on many different countries. How big a challenge is that to emerging African economies, do you think? It's a challenge, but a welcome challenge. Africa generally have depended upon official development assistance. And I think if you listen to what's coming from the African young people, young leaders, or even for that matter, all African leaders are saying it's time that with our natural resources, that we have a different vision, have a different agenda. we must be able to see to it that the benefits from our resources are used largely for inclusive growth, for response to the needs of people, for being able to give us the self-reliance, self-dependence that we have not been sufficiently strong in addressing over the years.

20:45But if the U.S. puts high tariffs on those natural resources from Africa, isn't there a danger that that could stifle growth in those economies? Yes, it is. And I think many other things that the current U.S. administration is doing, like the major reduction in support for U.S. aid, for support for the United Nations. Yes, it will affect us. But I think that we, too, on the basis of resources, even on the basis of the strength of our economy right now, can make sure that our priorities are changed. As part of changing those priorities, should there be more trade between African countries? We've had the African Continental Free Trade Agreement put in place for a few years now, but it hasn't worked as effectively as it should, has it?

21:40No, it has not, because we are still very nationalistic in Africa. Every country pursuing their agenda without sufficient attention to the integration that we speak about. How do you get people to think more widely? Because that's not easy to do. There's a growth in global nationalism, isn't there, whether that's political or economic? Yes. Can Africa rise to the challenge? Can other countries, particularly China, which has forged a major relationship with all African countries and are looking at it in a continental way for support and partnership, all tied to infrastructure? So China may well be the one that rises to the challenge of the resources that are required and the better use of our own natural resources to make sure that we have the value added, to make sure that we have more industry, to make sure we have the infrastructure that will enable us to integrate.

22:49That requires strong leadership from the African Union. There's been a lot of talk about this is Asia's century. When will it be Africa's century, do you think, economically? I hope we'll be finding a new path between now and 2030. Are you confident of that new path? Are you confident it's about to be found? In the next five years, our problems will not be solved. It's too brief a period. But by the time we reach 30, I think you'll see many changes that's responding to the global changes. The global changes are harsh and many countries will go through periods of difficulties. But during this period of difficulties lies our challenge.

23:34You've been nicknamed, haven't you, the Iron Lady? It's original to Margaret Thatcher, but I so liked how Margaret Thatcher governed in the United Kingdom. And she was called the Iron Lady. And because my own fiscal discipline in Liberia was and still is so strong, I picked up that Iron Lady so much. It was mostly related to fiscal discipline. And to young women who are listening to this, who want to be successful in whichever aspect of life they want to develop in, what would you say to them? What do they need to do? Establish a record. Stand up. Identify your goal. Set the agenda toward that goal.

24:25Have the confidence that you can achieve it, but take the measures to achieve education, integrity, commitment to public service. Stay focused on the goal. There will be challenges. There will even be failures. Failure is just the other side of success. And so, listen, you can't do it alone. Have a team. Use your influence with the team to achieve the goals you have set.

25:14Colombian artist Doris Salcedo and Prince Harry. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:14And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.