Estelle Brachlianoff, Veolia CEO: We need to rethink waste

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1:05Boo-yah! Hello, I'm Justin Rowlett, the BBC's climate editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

1:24Estelle Brachlianoff:I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Estelle Brachlianoff, chief executive of environmental firm Veolia at the BBC's London headquarters. The corporation's origins can be traced all the way back to 19th century France, when it was established as a water company during the country's Industrial Revolution. More than a century and a half later, it has grown to become one of the world's leading operators of environmental services, working across five continents, providing water supplies, waste management and energy services.

2:16In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, Bracklionov reveals how a multi-billion dollar corporation operates, as well as how Veolia adapts to the various challenges posed by climate change and the opportunities offered by technological advances.

2:33Estelle Brachlianoff:Why is it important that we increase the recycling rate? It's not just for the CO2 emission, although it's important. It's as well because it's a source of materials as opposed to imported from elsewhere. So in a way, instead of mining the planet, what about mining our waste? Instead of importing paper and oil and plastic, because plastic, of course, is traditionally made out of oil and lithium to make batteries, what about mine? Our waste. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Estelle Brachlianov. Originally, it was a French water company, wasn't it? And how did it evolve into this kind of environmental security company?

3:20Estelle Brachlianoff:You're right. Originally means more than 170 years ago. You're right. We were born in France in water, but it developed into now, you know, a company which is 80 % outside France and actually 40 % outside Europe even. We are number one in the US. We are number one in Australia. This is for water. The U.S. is for hazardous waste and for water. And in Australia, it's about waste as well. So we are really present in many, many different countries. And how did it evolve from this originally French company into a worldwide one? Actually, the customer's need has evolved from providing essential service, such as water at your tap, developed into developing technologies and innovation to treat various pollutants.

4:04Estelle Brachlianoff:And then, you know, recycling as in a social service as well. And we've acquired as well a few companies over the years. And that's how we became this, you know, 45 billion turnover to 120 ,000 employees worldwide now. You've talked about kind of environmental security as a kind of organizing principle to how you see the company developing. You've also talked about Viola as a defense company. Now, you supply water, you deal with waste. How is that national defense? Actually, I think environmental security is part of, you know, national security. And probably we haven't realized it yet, but some other countries have.

4:44Estelle Brachlianoff:When I say some of the countries have, if you were to come with me in the Middle East now, probably you wouldn't understand very much what I mean by that. Desalination units in the Middle East are targeted, as we speak, because they are a critical infrastructure to provide water, not only to cities, but to industries, to refineries and to pretty much everything. And of course, agriculture. So they are considered an essential service, a critical need. When you say targeted, you mean literally targeted by Iran in the conflict around the Straits of Hormuzh? Actually, desalination units are in the list of the targets.

5:20Estelle Brachlianoff:And actually, some of them have been bombarded as we speak. So we have therefore veolia facilities in the Middle East surrounded by Patriot missiles. So literally, we're talking about, you know, security as in national security. Of course, you know, this is an extreme example that you can see in the Middle East. But when you look at the summer that we've had through Europe and including in this country in the UK, you can think of, you know, when water becomes scarce, when you have droughts and you have to think of water as something as critical as many other national securities items. Water irrigates pretty much everything.

6:01Estelle Brachlianoff:Without water, you cannot have food. You cannot produce anything. Of course, you know, you cannot, you know, drink. so it's critical resource and this is one of the first consequence of global warming and climate change is on water so it's one of the first victim of climate change is water and you've talked about water bankruptcy it's a phrase the UN also uses the idea that we're kind of effectively using up running out of water faster than nature can provide it how can you know this is you know you're you know you're a commercial company how can you step in and kind of address this these kind of really big national and environmental issues?

6:40Estelle Brachlianoff:So Veolia is the largest water company in the world. We operate on the five continents, including in very water-scarce areas, such as Jordan, Chile, Australia, just to name a few. And we've, over the years, developed technologies and know-how to be able to ensure you have safe water, resilient water at the tap every single day. Water is a key critical infrastructure that we have to think of as we should protect it. That's why I call it security as much as any other critical infrastructure. Let's move on to another business area that I know is something you think is a potential opportunity for Veolia.

7:21Data centers, and you're talking about supplying water, naturally grows out of your core business, but also energy to data centers. Now, data centers, as you know, are very controversial. I'm the climate editor of the BBC. I get asked about data centres practically every day. What do you think you can bring to these issues about the incredible appetite for both energy and water that data centres have?

7:45Estelle Brachlianoff:So data centre and micro E and everything to do with AI, I call it the AI industries because it's really a supply chain. It's two sides of a coin. One is exactly what you said, they're consuming enormous amount of water and energy and we have the way in Veolia, again, the know-how and technologies to be able to make it more sustainable. And I'm going to explain that in a minute. The other side of the coin is that we can use and we are using AI as well to reduce water consumption, to detect leak, just as I mentioned, or to be more efficient in what we do. So I guess AI can be a force for good as long as it's used in a very practical way, where each time we check the balance between the environmental impact and the positive effect it can have.

8:30Estelle Brachlianoff:When it comes to data centers being implemented, you're right, if we're not careful, we can have a fight for water in a way or for energy between a local community and the data centers, which is, of course, not at all what anybody wants. By the way, it's happening already in the US when you look at it. And it is becoming data centers. A very big part of the next election in November in the US is around data centers, you know. So it's becoming a political agenda as well. And it's becoming a political agenda pretty much everywhere, as in, do we have to choose between supplying farmers and city or cooling down our data centers?

9:10And the issue, just to be clear for the audience, the issue is if you stop supplying water or energy to a data center, if it goes off, you lose all the data. And that's a huge kind of loss. So data centers demand unbelievable security of supply of both water and energy.

9:28Estelle Brachlianoff:And the volume is huge. Just to give you an idea, in the UK alone, by 2030, we estimate that data centres will be using the equivalent of the water consumption of both Birmingham and Glasgow combined. So it gives you an idea, and it's only 2030, so it's really short term. It's potentially very, very consuming. In a way, you have two choices. Either you say, I don't want data centers at all, but then you will be dependent from all the AI industries, which still is creating jobs and potential innovation somewhere else. And you will be dependent from, you know, like other countries. It's not necessarily what we want.

10:04Estelle Brachlianoff:The other choice is to make them more sustainable. And that's exactly what Veolia is helping there. By recycling water and recycling energy. What do I mean by that? Data centers, they consume a lot of energy and they produce heat because you have to cool them down. So the wasted heat, when you cool them down, can be used to provide heat for quite a low price to, say, a local district heating scheme. So you can imagine to almost have free heat for your home in the local community, thanks to the Dessent Territors, which is nearby. This is quite a circular approach, which is very important. Another one will be to do the same with water.

10:42Estelle Brachlianoff:They absolutely need a lot of water to be cooled down, those Dessenters. you can instead of taking water from the underground or from the rivers so you can take water from a wastewater treatment plant to be used to cool down the data center but it has to be very very clean doesn't it otherwise it leaves a residue in the system and then needs to be cleaned you're exactly right that's why i said technology and know-how because it's not exactly as easy as what it sounds but we are ready we have everything it takes and actually We've already developed such projects with Amazon Web Service in Mississippi, the Energy One in Ohio in the US.

11:18Estelle Brachlianoff:And we have a lot of projects, none of them which we've announced yet, but we are progressing very well. Let's move on to another area that Vielle has been focusing on. You made a big purchase in America of a company that focuses on hazardous waste. And you clearly, again, think this is a big business opportunity. What can you bring to hazardous waste? What is the problem that you're trying to address? So has this waste in a few words, these are all the effluents which industries do produce, like, you know, solvent, use solvent or chemical products, just to give you an idea. So it's, I would say, nasty stuff.

11:50Estelle Brachlianoff:You don't want to end up finding in the river nearby where they live or whatever. You want to treat them or to destroy them, for a better word, so that they are not released in nature. When I talked about environmental security earlier on, here we're talking about health protection. So it's a way of ensuring security of the supply, but with regards to protecting your health, because you don't want those pollutants, again, to end up anywhere. PFAS is one of them. These are the so-called forever chemicals. PFAS, yes, are the forever chemicals, which, you know, are pretty much everywhere in our daily lives.

12:27Estelle Brachlianoff:And science discovered... But in absolutely minute quantities. These are, you know, kind of one molecule in a million. Exactly. Exactly. Science has evolved and we've discovered, I mean, science has discovered that some of them, not all of them, could be harmful for your health. And they are progressively banned or, you know, there are things imposed on the companies producing them. And alongside science evolving, Veolia has innovated. We've put all our R &D team to try and say, OK, can we destroy this PFAS? At first they say, no, not yet. And then they found a way. So now we can tell you we can destroy those PFAS up to 99.9999%.

13:10Estelle Brachlianoff:That's quite a lot. That's quite a lot. But how do you do it? How do we do it? You know, it depends if those pollutants are within soil, within water or within the air. But basically, concentrate them thanks to, say, membranes or iron resins. And then once you have a concentration of them, you destroy them by burning them at a very high temperature. It's more than 1 ,100 degrees Celsius in very specific units, which we have a few around the world. And we've demonstrated. You've got one in the UK, haven't you? We've got one in the UK near Liverpool. Who is going to pay for that? Because often the companies that created the pollution have gone or been absorbed by another company.

13:50And, you know, the responsibility is not clear. I mean, who's going to pay? Governments, local people, the companies, Veolia?

13:58Estelle Brachlianoff:We are here to serve and to ensure that, you know, the cost is the lower possible. That's what I said by, you know, having a value for money. And innovation is helping us to be more efficient every single day. It will be for society to decide in a way who's going to pay for that. It's going to be probably a bit of the three you mentioned. And Veolia's role is to make it so that, you know, it's a less possible cost for the population. That's why it's value for money is at the forefront of everything we do with regard to innovation. But you're sort of building a business without a guaranteed revenue stream yet.

14:31Estelle Brachlianoff:You're exactly right. So you're right. When you launch an offer, we don't have any guaranteed revenue. But I think, you know, this summer for any other things demonstrated that we are probably at the right place, as in having unique proprietary solutions for critical needs on water, waste and energy. I think some people listening to this will say, you know, brilliant. Obviously, we want to clean the environment up. That sounds great. But if I end up paying the cost, my bills are going to rise at a time when I'm already worried about the cost of living. We talk a lot here in the UK. I'm sure it's the same in France.

15:03The same everywhere. Everywhere that people feel as if the cost of living is bearing more heavily on them than it ever has before.

15:09Estelle Brachlianoff:A few things on that one. Acting now will always be less expensive than waiting. So let's not waste a good crisis, as you say. Just this summer, drought and water scarcity cost the UK more than£1 billion. So we have to anticipate the solution. We have everything it takes if you call us with using our innovation and know-how so that we can ensure that the water bills doesn't go up in terms of percentage of income. If we wait for the next crisis, if we don't use all the innovation we have, then I cannot, I couldn't certify that. But if we use all the solution we have, plus we act now, I can certify, I can stay very, very.

15:57That's a very forceful argument. But the, you know, there are some constraints here. You know, interest rates have gone up dramatically. The cost of borrowing is more higher. You know, it's not as governments are struggling to find money for defence, for fundamental things, for funding the NHS here in the UK. They don't have money to invest in things that, yes, would be great to kind of solve now. But things like clearing up chemical residues from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

16:28Estelle Brachlianoff:I would see it a little bit differently. You were implying in your question that there are serious things, say, defence, and things which are more, OK, to be good for the environment or for the planet, and maybe we can wait. I would debate that. As I said earlier on, environmental security is a question of national security. Ensuring that you don't have a health crisis because we let pollutants end up, you know, being drinking by your fellow citizens is a question of, in a way, national security. So it's not a question of being good for the planet. It's a question of the human being. It's a question of economic.

17:10Estelle Brachlianoff:And by the way, it creates job and good local well-paid jobs.

17:18You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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18:31I'm talking with Estelle Brachlianov, the boss of the environmental services company Veolia and one of the most powerful female CEOs in the world. I first met her behind the scenes at the UN Climate Summit in Dubai back in 2023. I was curious both about her business and about what it takes to rise so high in global industry as a woman. And three years later, I'm getting the chance to put my questions to Estelle in person. OK, let's return to my conversation with Estelle Bracklionov. You talk a lot about, you know, protecting the environment. You're building the core principles of the company around that idea.

19:13That's the vision. But at the same time, one of your businesses is waste to energy. So it's taking, you know, for example, plastic waste, burning it to create energy, which sounds like a kind of recycling process. But of course, Estelle, it produces carbon dioxide emissions. And Veolia has quite ferociously been fighting the proposal that you should pay a carbon price. Now, all other energy generators who burn fossil fuels and plastic is effectively in this instance of fossil fuel pay a carbon price. Why shouldn't Veolia pay a carbon price as well?

19:45Estelle Brachlianoff:So a few things on that one. Priority is to recycle more. And then energy from waste is when it's only to produce energy of the non-recyclable waste. So it's in this order and in this priority, just to be very clear. So yes, there are progress which should make recycle more plastic and actually they are investing massively. So yes, you're right, it should be the priority. But once you have a part which is not recyclable, I'd better produce energy than landfill it. Produce energy means it's a local source of energy, which means you don't have to be dependent from importing fuel and so on and so forth.

20:24Estelle Brachlianoff:But you're right, it should be the priority of first increase the recycling rate. And it is exactly what the intention of the government is. In the end, when you produce, you're right, you know, energy from waste are checked with regards to all the emission and everything, and rightly so. It still produces CO2. It's not various CO2. It's your household waste, which produces CO2. So we're only, you know, operating it for you. So in the end, the CO2 tax, if it were to happen, and it's not for me to decide, will end up, you know, increasing just, you know, local bills. That's it. But you could say the same thing about a gas turbine plant, an electricity generator that uses gas.

21:07You could say, well, it's local bills and, you know, charging a carbon price is going to push up local bills. At the end of the day, if we're going to tackle climate change, which you said is a core issue for Veolia, we have to drive down emissions. You know that, Miss. Exactly.

21:18Estelle Brachlianoff:That's why the third part of my answer is at the same time, we're investing massively in trying to see how we could capture the CO2, which will be remaining, into energy from waste. And we've invested in the new technology of carbon capture for the remaining bit because there will always be a remaining bit of CO2 emission from energy from waste. So, again, recycle first and we're investing massively. for the past, which is not recyclable, I'd rather produce energy than anything. But at the same time, you're right. You know, the idea is not to keep it that way. The idea is progressively to evolve.