Fally Ipupa, musician: Speak out on DRC suffering

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1:04Sign up now at DAZN.com. Hello, I'm Jewel Kuyungi, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need assist fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end.

1:44For this episode, I speak to Fali Ipupa, one of Africa's biggest music stars. His music has brought Congolese rumba to audiences around the world, earning him the Democratic Republic of Congo's highest honour, a knighthood in the National Order of the Leopard. Fali recognizes that his global success gives him a platform to speak about what is happening at home, where conflict in the east of the country has fueled one of the world's worst displacement crises. For Fali, representing the Dier Congo goes beyond music. He tells me how he has tried to turn his success into practical help for people caught up in the conflict.

2:28Sad, you know, if I can sad, sad. That's why I created my foundation, you know. I have a foundation for this situation since 2013 for talking about this thing. I do the songs, I go to the coma to give an ambulance, you know. I think one of the ambulances they have in the hospital, it comes from me. I go to visit Dr. Mukwege to see the women, women. I do many things in this, this coin-là. And the last thing I do, it was like maybe one year ago. We board school for the refugees. But unfortunately, maybe I think they, they don't cast the school, because it's a conflict. actual school. In the conflict.

3:22Yeah, in the conflict. So it's very sad. We're supposed to see not just in Congo. We're supposed to have peace everywhere in the world. Everywhere in Africa. Every kid needs to go to the school, have health in the hospital, food, security. I think for me it's very important. We don't speak. Now everybody knows the situation of Congo. But we have many, many people in the world who are warm, you know, crazy things. I think to be human, I think we need peace. We need peace harmonized everywhere in the world and everywhere in Africa.

4:19Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Fali Ipupa. Well, thank you very much, Fali, for making time to come and speak to us. We'll get right started. Now, you've played two consecutive sold-out concerts at the Stade of Horns in front of tens of thousands of people. After 20 years on stages like that, what do you think keeps making people come back to watch you? Nice question. I think because I have even today something to give. I have, I received the new songs. Maybe because they like every time they see me on stage, I'm not just come to play with people, but I give a hundred percent of my energy.

5:16They like our performance, my performance. They like my music and maybe because I'm great. Okay. I like that. I say maybe. Maybe? Yes. Okay. Well, if the crowd is anything to go by, then it means that you are doing something right. So I want us to talk about the boy that grew up in the musical streets of Bandal in the capital Kinshasa. And now you have been honored by the state as a knight of the National Order of the Leopard. That was by President Felix Gisekedi. When you received that honour, did you think about that boy who grew up in Bandal? Yes. Even when I started France, I think about this kid of Bandal.

6:07Even when I received this decoration, which is in France, I think for this kid from Bandal, because I say, wow, I work too much. Thanks to this kid to give this all energy to this big man, for this big man. And I imagine that there's a lot of work, as you've said, that you've put in to be where you are. I want us to talk about your childhood growing up. You had this dream to be a global pop star, musician, which you have. Maybe you could paint to us a picture. How was life like then when you had only a dream and you could sing and dance? How did you start? I start like every Congolese, young Congolese from my community in Vandal.

7:04I used to love music. my dream was one day to become artist, not big famous but artist but if you have a dream you're supposed to work too much, hard to catch your dream no secret just work, just work and be serious in your work and love your work because music is my passion it was my love that's why every time since today when I go to the stage, I do, I realize many things. Show, awards, I win. I do two-time stadium in France, but I'm going to do two-time O2 arena in London. Oh, okay. I'm in Nairobi. I have always pleasure to be on stage because I love music. Now, you built this sound you call Tokos.

8:03I think, I hope I pronounced it right. Tokos, yeah. Tokos. and that is your own blend of Congolese music as well as global urban music. What did you have to let go of, musically or culturally? What did you have to sacrifice in order to be able to create this sound? Talk to us about the Toko sound. What were you having in mind? Because I grew up in Kinshasa and I go to Paris when I was, I used to be a little bit, you know, like 20, 19, 20. So I have both cultures, you know, Congolese culture and rumba music. That way when I imagine Torko's music, I bring Congolese guitar, Lingala, Congolese dance, Congolese music, and pop music, you know, international music.

8:58I mix this music. You can, when you're listening to my album, because I released two albums, Congolese rumba, traditional music, and toko's music. When I do toko's music, I mix some little English, little French, but always Congolese guitar. Okay. That is my... Your signature. My signature, my vision of my music. Yes. And I want us to talk about that new album that you have. Some people have called it a cake that has something for everyone. And you've just mentioned it. There are songs where you've sung in Swahili. There are songs where you've sung in English, Portuguese. So is this something that you had in mind when you were creating this album?

9:45Or is this something that just came up and you're like, oh, okay, this is the direction? This is my vision, my vision of music, you know. because I travel everywhere in the world. So I bring some things everywhere I go, you know. I never grew up, I never speak Swahili when I grew up in Kinshasa, I speak just Lingala, a little bit French. But I do Afsana, you can see, you can listen to Afsana. It's come from Fali, but I sing Swahili in English. that is my I can say this is my vision of my music you know I'm like a globe throtter you know when I travel everywhere in the world I can bring everything and mix on my music and did you find any challenges in trying to bring this vision to life with all these different people yes of course I remember when I released my first song, global songs, like the name of the song is Suite Life.

10:53You know, it was not Roomba, not hip-hop, you know, just good music. I sing in Lingala, French and English. Some people, some, you know, the very purists, the very protector, Roomba protector say, what song it brings? You were spoiling. Yes, but today everybody do a little bit something, you know. And after three months, people go crazy with this song. They say, wow, you've seen the new Thali song. I think musicians are supposed to take a risk. I'm a challenger, man. And you know, That Sweet Life song is one of my favorites. And a lot of people say that it was just a different side of Congo, right?

11:47instead of putting you in a specific line and say, Fali can only do this, Fali should only do this, then you explode. So I just want to talk to you, to find out from you as a person, when you're Fali, Pupa, everyone wants something from you. Someone wants a photo, someone wants an autograph, someone wants an interview. Where do you get to just be Fali? To just be Fali? Because a thing is natural. You know, you can change. You know, celebrity can change people. Money, all crazy, all those crazy things. For me, one thing is very important. It's supposed to be natural. And in French, I say, être musicien ou être célèbre ne fait pas de nous, de superman.

12:43On fait juste un métier qui est cool, but we're human. Don't be like, you're not human because you're a celebrity. I said, to be a celebrity artist who may be a rich man, don't make you like you're a superman, like you're a fly. You're above everyone. Just be, in French we say la tête sur les épaules. Respect people, be cool. Yes, sometimes you can naturally be mad and sad and angry, but be a natural person. Everybody is going to die one day. We saw that a long time ago when American people came to Africa. You want the people to see them like a superman. But for me, it's not important. I'm cool.

13:39So you said you're cool. What do you do? What do you like to do when you're not singing or when you're not practicing? We hang up with my friends, with my family, play football, we're watching movies, series. You'd say series. Series. TV show. I don't like TV show. Oh, okay. Because TV show is like a TV show. Series, yes. Series, you like series. And gym. Oh, okay. Yes. Which football team do you support? Royal Madrid. Oh, okay. Congolese team, national team. Yes. And Royal Madrid. And they did very well at the World Cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you cheering for them? Were you... Go crazy. Okay.

14:18Very proud. Do you want to say something about that? What was it like to see your team playing at the World Cup after 54 years of not being there? It was very crazy because I never saw my team in the World Cup since I was born. It was my first time. So we don't sleep. When they come to play at night, we don't sleep because we're waiting for the game. So we, Al-Kongoli is a very proud, you know.

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15:49So when you sit across someone like Fali Pupa, there's that initial moment where you're very conscious that you're sitting with this huge African music star. But when I sat down and finally started the interview, I was immediately struck by how relaxed and composed he is. He was very engaging. We were able to get into a real conversation there. And it generally felt like just two normal people having a conversation. It didn't feel like an interview. In fact, I even lost track of time because time went just by very fast. And we laughed quite a bit. He has a very good sense of humor. So I found myself laughing along the way, especially as he was just describing some different scenarios.

16:30But when we got into the depth of the interview, especially when he spoke about the situation back home, then you really got to see that this is someone who is very concerned about the going-ons in the eastern part of the country. This is someone who desires that a lot more should be done, and that this is not something limited to politicians only, but a rallying call for Africans across the continent to come together to address some of the issues that affect us. And towards the end, the highlight was when we asked him to sing a song or two, which he obliged. So we had our own concert in studio and the crew and myself are very excited because this is someone who we have seen on screen for so many years.

17:13And he's now giving us our own concert right there in our BBC studios. One of the things that he left us with was a message to young people who would like to succeed in music. And he said that there's no shortcut towards success. A lot of people want to be celebrities. A lot of people want the fame. But he says that you should work hard first and then the fame will come and then the success will come. So that was really a sobering point there to end our conversation. OK, let's return to my conversation with Fali Ipupa. So I just want us to talk a bit more about home. And this is on the eastern side of your country, Eastern Diyar Congo, which has seen a lot of conflict.

17:56A lot of people have been displaced. and you carry Congo's name to the world stage, right? So how is that for you when you have to balance on one side the joy that you're giving people out there, people are celebrating you, but on the other hand, you know what's going back home, you know that some of your people are suffering. How is that like for you? And do you think that that is a role that we should see more African musicians playing? Not just African musicians, everybody, Even journalist, even president, even football player, even promoter. Everybody needs. No, I don't say it's our work. You know what I'm saying?

18:48It's not our work, not our obligation, but we need to do it for you know those people who have suffering we don't have food santé security we need to do it not just musicians all musicians sing about this situation oh there since 10 years all musicians sing but we need everybody supposed to say to talk more. Loudly, more, more. More, more about the situation. Not just for Congo. I'm from Congo, we're supposed to talk for this situation in Congo, but all Africa is important. And in your work, because you have mentioned that you do some humanitarian work, what opportunities do you feel exist in order to amplify or to add to these efforts that you are talking about, is there something that you think needs to be done that is not yet done beyond the speaking about it?

19:58Is there something that you feel either the political leaders need to do or Africans themselves need to do? How do we make progress? How do we have some change, especially in some of the things that affect us? You know, I'm not very specialist for this situation, but if I can say something, is not, my opinion is not the good advice, but I think we're supposed to lean to co-arbit, to live together and harmonize. You know? And it's not just leader responsibility. Of course, leader responsibility, African leader responsibility is big because his political bring these crazy things. First of all, his political bring these crazy things because sometimes today people can talk, people can be friends because of political.

21:03But to be like African men, not just African singer, we're supposed to love other African people who are African, you know? and let us between Africans. Each other's... If you love somebody, you don't go make something crazy to him. Yeah, because you're driven by that love at first. Now, when you look, because you are celebrating 20 years as a solo artist, and when you look forward at the next 20 years, and when you think about when someone sees you perform, you will be performing in Nairobi tomorrow, What would you like them to remember about you? He was one of the biggest artists from Africa.

21:53Yes, one of us. I don't say the big one. Because, you know, I'm the first African artist to do two times study France. You know, I'm the first artist African to have one album number one in France. you know I'm the first francophone artist not just from Africa no even France to do two times O2 Arena in London you know I'm one of artists who do 20 years of career good career you know so that's why I say one of the people when I remember this name just say used to be one of the biggest artists not just celebrities I don't like celebrities Celebrity, like, you know, the people who like celebrity, I like to be artists faster.

22:44Yes. And that shows in some of the music that you've done and you've talked about it. You've mentioned something that I'm curious about. You said that when you were younger, you used to go between the Congo and France. And then now, years later, here you are topping the charts in France. Did that feel like a full circle moment? Did you feel like, oh, okay, this is where it started. I used to come here and now I am dominating the charts here. How was that like for you? What went through your mind? Crazy. I think it's the dream of many African young kids to become big in your work. If you love something, you start young.

23:34you go step by step. That is most important. You're supposed to tell young generation to go step by step. If you go step by step, you're going to enjoy more your success. Not just come, you want to, you know? And sometimes when everybody asks me to give the advice for young generation. I say, love more your work. If you are a musician, love music, and then you're going to love celebrity life.

24:27Thank you for listening to The Interview. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find many more episodes of The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including ones with tech billionaire Reid Hoffman, director Chloe Zhao, and Dr. Ngozi Okonja-Yuela, head of the World Trade Organization. Until the next time, bye for now.

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