Gayton McKenzie, South African minister: Immigration unrest

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0:39Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith-Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott.

1:12So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Bye.

1:22Hello, I'm Wahiga Mwaura, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this episode, I speak to Gaten McKenzie, South Africa's Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture and leader of the Patriotic Alliance. Whilst his ministerial portfolio is sport and the arts, he is perhaps better known as leader of the political party Patriotic Alliance.

2:11This party has built much of its support on a tough stance against illegal migration, making McKenzie closely associated with the issue. Immigration has become one of South Africa's most contentious subjects, fueling violent protests, attacks on migrants, both legal and illegal, and fierce political rhetoric. It was against this backdrop that South Africa recently marked Mandela Day on ring Nelson Mandela's legacy of humanity, justice, freedom, and human rights. I challenge Gaetan on whether his stance is compatible with Mandela's legacy and ask whether he is blaming migrants for problems that run much deeper.

2:52We don't want to be at war with our African countries and brothers, but we have hosted people here for 30 years with our papers. Enough is enough now. They must go home. They will go home. And the South African economy, they will bounce back. All Africans are welcome, but don't come here illegally. What is so difficult? I'm a minister in the cabinet of South Africa, And I must show my papers when I walk into any country on the continent. No man can feed another man's children while his children are starving. Our people are starving of jobs. They're starving of health care.

3:33Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Gaton McKenzie. The majority of people in South Africa, and I say the majority because nobody's got all-round love. The majority of people we still revere, love, and think fondly of Nelson Mandela. Young people also. But you do have a few, like in any other country, some people that say now his policies, the reason why we're suffering, which I can tell you nothing is further from the truth. Mandela had a roadmap. He didn't walk the whole road with us. He walked part of the road with us. So if there's people to blame, it should be today's leadership.

4:14It should be us and not Nelson Mandela. So you do agree with those who say that even as reflections happen around Nelson Mandela Day, there are challenges to be tackled. I'm talking about, I mean, Mandela was passionate about education. He was passionate about youth empowerment. But the country right now is facing a big unemployment crisis. Do you think this undermines the legacy that he worked for? Well, I wouldn't say it is done deliberately. You know, we have socioeconomic conditions in our country, which is not favorable to a lot of young people currently. But, you know, we're not where we used to be.

4:53We're not where we want to be. But we've truly made inroads as a country. And we've got lots of work ahead of us still. But when it comes to youth unemployment, there were many factors that contributed towards that. but we are adequately aware of what needs to be done. And we are doing that. I mean, because there are those who say there isn't much to celebrate around this day. There's a call to service, but there are those who say, shouldn't the government, shouldn't the ANC be working to rectify issues that will make life easier for all South Africans, as opposed to just one day of symbolic service?

5:31Well, you know, there's no government in the world that doesn't have challenges. We've got different challenges. Some governments in Africa have got challenges when it comes to rebels. Some have got challenges when it comes to school kids being kidnapped. Some is absolute poverty. There's no food in the country. South Africa has youth unemployment. That's our challenge, and we're dealing with it. And, you know, we have a government of national unity in South Africa, and we are working hard towards that, you know. And as you rightly know, a lot of the jobs that usually was reserved for young people in our country in the service industry has unfortunately been taken by illegal foreigners.

6:16And it's something we are dealing with currently in our country. It's interesting you've said that because I know Nelson Mandela was also known for his relations with other African countries. I believe he gained political and financial support from countries such as Ghana, Mali, Senegal, just to name a few. And yet recently we saw vigilante groups in your country asking foreigners from these very same countries to leave. Again, is this a betrayal of his legacy as you think about who Nelson Mandela was? This is absolutely not a betrayal of his legacy, and I'll tell you why I'm saying that. you know our struggle as South Africans we were helped by African countries we were helped by European countries countries in the west we were helped by a lot of countries Sweden helped us Ghana helped us Zambia helped us the UK helped us with the anti-apartheid movement that was very big here in the UK but you don't see them streaming in our country illegally so So does that help?

7:20Did that help mean we're going to help you now, but you must allow criminality to happen in your country when you take over? I don't think so. I don't think so. So what we are doing is, of course, they see people that this is a legitimate concern of South Africans, where there's illegal foreigners, people with no paperwork. No country in the world allows that to happen. Why should we? No country in the world will say to people, you are illegally here. You don't need a passport. So why do we have borders? What we are saying is that, yes, there are some one or two people that exploit the genuine concern that we have when it comes to illegal immigration.

8:00But we should not be known by the worst of us. We should be known by the best of us. So, yes, the government is dealing. There's been 900 arrests of people that was attacking illegal foreigners, that was attacking migrants. Our message is very simple. We say South Africa is open to our brothers on the continent, but come here legitimately. Come with your papers. Come here like a civilized human being that wants to come and contribute towards our country. We don't have people from Sweden coming in saying, we help you. We help you with your struggle. Now we have to send all our undesirables. We have to send all people there because we helped you with the struggle.

8:45Was that help for people to come here illegally, for people to come sell drugs here? And I'm sure Mandela would have said, no, keep that help. That was what the help was for. So here's what I'm struggling to understand. Of a country with about 3.9 to 4 million foreign-born individuals, a country of 63 million people, when did it get to a point that it was decided that the current challenge of unemployment is because of this percentage of a population that isn't anywhere near the majority? Help us understand that. No, I think first you shouldn't call them foreign born. There's a difference between foreign born and illegal immigrant.

9:24Let's not decriminalize it by calling it foreign born. It's an illegal immigrant. So if I can answer you, we have more than 3 million. How would you know that amount? When did you count them if they are undocumented? We don't even know. Nobody can truly tell you how many illegal foreigners are in our country. When people say it's three million, three million, how do they know? Do they come and say, I'm an illegal foreigner, count me? No, we have an influx of illegal foreigners here. So far we have self-deported just from Malawi. We are standing close to 80 ,000 people just from Malawi. Minister, the numbers are from your government and from your statistics agency.

10:11I disagree with the statistics agency because how would you count people that are illegally in the country? You know, people will not give up their hands. So I'm saying to you that we have taken a decision that not all our problems can be attributed to illegal foreigners, but some of our problems can be directly attributed. And I can explain to you why I'm saying that. Number one, they are not counted in when the Fiskers distributes money. So these are people that is a burden on the system, on the health care system. That is a burden on our school system. So I am saying we cannot say the 3 point something million you're talking about.

10:56But let's say, for your argument's sake and to answer your question, 2 million of those 3.9 million are having a job in this country then you see when they leave there will be space for 2 million South Africans so we don't say they are responsible for all our problems but they are responsible for some of our problems so we start with them because I'm wondering to myself 2 years from now when we are next marking Nelson Mandela Day and by that point many migrants have left the country and there still aren't enough jobs for young people, what are you going to tell South Africans then? That is our problem with South Africans.

11:40How are we going to sort it out? But what you are saying is that we should continue. What I'm asking is, is there a danger that this could go beyond undocumented migrants, that many foreigners in the country are in a state of concern about their future? Firstly, the state of concern is extremely legitimate. much. But on 16 June, during our youth day, I took the mic at the Minister of Sports, Arts, and Culture, and I said that we will not tolerate criminality. We will not tolerate people that are legally in the country, that they should be assaulted. We will not tolerate people doing the work of the police.

12:15The police acted accordingly by arresting some of these people. But I am saying to you that, you know, when you have 10 problems, you sort it out one by one. This is a problem in our country. Show me any country, you know, Ghana, you make an example with Ghana. I can tell you Ghana recently chased out Nigerians in the country. They were marching against Nigerians. It's chased out the right word. I believe it was the business community that was concerned about Nigerian traders undercutting their businesses. It wasn't the South Africa scenario. That's the clarity that I have, Minister. I don't think those are the same examples.

12:54No, but what is different from this? We're doing the very same. We have a problem with whether the business community is still Ghanaian. You must say Ghanaian business people. They're not South African business people. It's Ghanaian business people having a problem with Nigerians in their country. We are having the same problem. Now, when you say it's not the same, what is different? My question to you is it's not a get out of our country. They're not blaming them for crime. They're not blaming them for anything else. It was purely one business community concerned about the business operations of another community.

13:27At least that's what I'm aware of. Well, let me tell you, you're aware of the wrong information, but let me give you some clarity on this matter. 20 % of our prison population, 20 plus percent of our prison population is illegal foreigners. Now, there's no better debate, there's no better fact to show you that some of them do commit crime. 20 % of the convicted prison population of South Africa are illegal immigrants. Now, that nullifies anybody that says some of them don't commit crimes. The ones that don't commit crimes are working at low-paid jobs. They are being exploited by the captains of the industry because they are not unionized.

14:11They don't have legal standing in our country. Now, that really, it undercuts our fight for fair remuneration. It undercuts our fight that people should be treated in a humane way at work because they accept any job, they accept any payment. Now, the criminal element has been arrested and found guilty, and they are convicted. The other ones are working in jobs that must have a special skill. when you want to work in a country like South Africa. That's what our rules are saying. You can't just come here and take a job that is meant for South Africans or a job that a South African can do. Let me ask you this instead.

14:58How many jobs are you anticipating will be created once all undocumented migrants have left? Or how many jobs have been created so far? Well, you can't. These people left last week. Why are we now expected to give turbo stats? But I can say this to you. We anticipate to create 5 million jobs. And I'm telling you today that it shouldn't even be the argument. The argument should be, what are the rules of our country? The rules of our country is that you can come here and enjoy our country, but you have to come here legally. Why are we even talking about what should death and what shouldn't be? The rule is very simple.

15:40Don't come here illegally in our country. When you come here legally, you can enjoy our nice country. But if you come here illegally, we will make sure that you get arrested. And we are now giving them, to show you how humane we are in Saudi Arabia, we are giving people a chance. we say self-deport, come report and go home. And I see Ghana and all these countries are now, our president has been so humane in how he wants this matter to be handled. But I see all sorts of accusations towards South Africa. The one question that these countries don't ask themselves, our fellow African brothers and sisters, if you call us xenophobic, now tell me why are your people running away from you?

16:23That is the question that you should be asking them. Why is it that your people are running not one or two or a hundred or a thousand? Millions, millions of people are running away from their countries. And they now come into South Africa like we are the refugee center for Africa. I am being very forward with you. Minister, you're asking fair questions. One could ask why one of the fastest growing economies, China, has many of its nationals in other parts of the world looking for business opportunities. These people are legally in China. So it's not that easy. We want Africans to come, fellow Africans to come to South Africa.

16:58We want the skills to come, but we want you to come legally. What is so difficult asking that?

17:08You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Waihiga Waura.

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18:01For most, the U.S. Virgin Islands is just a quick nonstop flight or a simple connection away. Start planning your getaway to America's Caribbean at visitusvi.com. That's visitusvi.com. USVI, naturally in rhythm. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith-Bino joining us.

18:42And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Bye.

19:04Now, even before the microphones were switched on for this interview, it was clear that immigration was the issue that Gator and McKenzie most wanted to discuss, despite his official remit as Minister for Sport, Arts and Culture. I knew it was a subject he had spoken about passionately before, but I was still struck by just how much of our conversation centered on it. His answers were direct, unapologetic and often provocative, and he addressed difficult questions and contentious issues head on. Immigration is one of South Africa's defining issues at the moment, with the debate becoming increasingly prominent in politics and at times spilling over into protests and outbreaks of violence and vigilantism.

19:49Foreigners have been forced out of their homes and businesses. Some have been physically attacked. More than 160 ,000 foreign nationals left South Africa over the past two months, according to an AFP tally. So it was perhaps inevitable that our conversation would repeatedly come back to the topic. Now for the second half of our conversation, we move to the just concluded Football World Cup in the United States. I asked the minister about the future of Bafana Bafana, or the boys, as the football team are fondly nicknamed. But we also discuss why so many neutral fans around the world hoped that the team would lose and whether it reflects how South Africa is being viewed beyond its borders.

20:32OK, let's return to my conversation with Keaton McKenzie. And as far as Bafana Fana is concerned, we at South Africa, we are very, very happy with the performance of Bafana Fana. We judge ourselves against ourselves, against our future, against our past achievements. And have we moved the needle further? Of course we did. We have never reached knockout stages in the history of our country. This time, we've reached knockout stages. No team in the whole World Cup had three points deducted from them, through our own fault. But the fact that we had three points deducted and we still managed to qualify, It speaks to you about our resilience as a country, as South Africans, and the fact that we were the most loved nation at that World Cup.

21:20People, there was an attempt by certain people on the continent to make us the pariah and say we're xenophobic and walking around with bots. But the people saw through them because they know that we are not a xenophobic country. Yes, we do have xenophobic people in our country, like every other country in Africa, got xenophobic people. But that should not be who we are seen as in South Africa. But Bafana Bafana, they've done excellent according to our standards because we've never reached the... Some people that has not even qualified, some countries that haven't even qualified are laughing at our achievement that we didn't win the World Cup.

22:03No, we've done very... I wanted to ask you, what do you make of this concept that's become quite a talking point at the World Cup, hate watching. South Africa were on the receiving end of it, and now some are saying even Argentina has faced similar treatment, where a section of the fans actively watch their matches and tweet about wanting them to lose. What do you make of that phenomenon that South Africa faced? Well, let me tell you, South Africa, if you watch our games, number one, South Africa had the most attendance more than any other African country. Let's start there. No African country had the type of attendance numbers that we had in South Africa.

22:41We had the highest attendance numbers. Number two, you went to Canada. The diaspora, you know, they support the South Africa. The stadium, in the South Korea game, the majority of the people were South African. So you think we'll worry about the person that is tweeting there from the country that hates us. They tried to run a campaign. We defeated that campaign. Mexicans loved South Africans. Americans loved South Africans. We were the most loved country. You think we can worry about somebody tweeting here in South Africa bad about us? No, the majority of people loved us. We were so loved. I've never felt so much love.

23:24Atlanta threw out the red carpet for South Africa. We were so loved. You go to Mexico. Mexico threw out the red carpet for South Africa. Monterrey, it was South Africa. Now you want to tell me about the few people that say, that tweet great about us. Okay, my last question to you is, and finally on this one, do you think South Africa's economy has suffered because of the marches, because of the June 30th deadline, because of the narrative around undocumented migrants and xenophobic attacks, etc.? Has there been any tangible impact on the economy there? Well, it's too early to say. surely there will be we don't want to be at war with our African countries and brothers but you know if it means that we should accept stuff that other countries are not accepting in the interest of keeping people keeping a good opinion of us from people that don't really matter at times you know if you love South Africa you will understand that we are peace loving people we have hosted people here for 30 years with our papers, enough is enough now.

24:33They must go home. They will go home. And the South African economy, if in the event that we are suffering, we are a resilient economy. We have a resilient economy. They will bounce back. We will work hard towards that. The government of Nassau is doing a good job. The president is doing a good job. So we will bounce back. And the ones that truly want to understand what's happening, they must listen to us. we are saying all Africans are welcome, but don't come here illegally. What is so difficult? I'm a minister in the cabinet of South Africa, and I must show my papers when I walk into any country on the continent, any elsewhere.

25:18Why is it that there's an expectation that we must just, no man can feed another man's children while his children are starving? Our people are starving of jobs. They're starving of health care. let these leaders that have so many bad things to say about our country ask themselves that question why are your people running away from you why are they running to us