Gebran Bassil, Lebanese politician: Hezbollah should disarm

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1:28We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Gibran Basile, the Lebanese politician who served as the country's foreign minister between 2014 and 2020 in Batrun, a Christian seaside town north of the capital, Beirut. Mr. Basile, who is from the country's Maronite Christian ethnic group, leads the right-wing Free Patriotic Movement political party. The party was founded over 30 years ago by the former president of Lebanon, Michel Aoun, who's also Basile's father-in-law.

2:10In October 2024, a year after the Hamas-led attacks of the 7th of October on Israel kicked off the current phase of the Middle East conflict, the Free Patriotic Movement Party announced it was cutting ties with Hezbollah. Basile slammed the Iranian-backed group for threatening the safety and stability of Lebanon because it had launched its own attacks on Israel in support of Hamas in Gaza. Now, as the war between Israel and Hezbollah continues in southern Lebanon, Basile and his Party are part of growing calls for Lebanon, his country, to take a new direction. We should support Lebanon in liberating our occupied territories.

3:00We should support the state of Lebanon. And this state of Lebanon, a strong state of Lebanon, should impose on Hezbollah its disarming in a way that could not take us to a civil war. That may look a bit complicated, but that's achievable.

3:20Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Gibran Basile. Lebanon is a country with a lot of problems at the moment. What is the biggest one? The continuous and endless war since the creation of Israel, since 1948. And our country is paying the price for, unfortunately, having a state on our borders that is different than ours. We are a society, and Israel is a monolithic state. Now, the president has authorized negotiations, direct negotiations with the Israelis. Is that a good idea? If you want peace, and we want peace, peace ends up with negotiations. So this is the normal path towards a settlement.

4:16But negotiations have their rules, their form, and their content. And Lebanon should not lose his strong cards in the negotiation process. What's the strong card? The ability to resist. When you have no ability to resist, you surrender. We are not in a state of surrender. So are you supporting then Hezbollah who are resisting, who are fighting the Israelis? I support Lebanon. I don't support Hezbollah. But they're resisting. I support Lebanon and it's right to resist an occupation. Whenever there is no occupation, there is no aggression against Lebanon. there is no reason to have neither Hezbollah nor any kind of resistance.

5:02Our end goal is peace, not war, is dialogue, not a continuous fight and conflict. Now, the Israelis and others and people in this country, including the president, have said that Hezbollah needs to be disarmed. Is that possible? The state of Lebanon needs to have an exclusivity of arms. And definitely, Hezbollah needs to be disarmed. But disarming, you know that from Ireland, your Irish experience, disarming a group or a community is not possible by force. It's possible by conviction. You put pressure, but you cannot eliminate a whole society, a whole community. So yes, we need to have an exclusivity of arms in the hand of the state, an exclusivity of decision through a political process pressuring Hezbollah to disarm, but getting also in parallel a full withdrawal of the Israelis from occupied Lebanese territories and a full cessation of hostilities.

6:05Is there any sense in which that is possible? Israeli forces are actually advancing deeper into Lebanon. Yeah, you know, history taught us that no occupation can last. So they can occupy a land, but they cannot stay. What the Israelis faced before 2000, well, they were obliged to withdraw in 2000 due to the resistance. So we don't need to go again through long years and through the same process of occupying a country and then withdrawing through it. Let's do it now. Let's settle this conflict once for all and have peace and stability on our borders. Aren't you trying to have your cake and eat it insofar as you're saying resistance against Israel is legitimate and important and vital, but on the other side, you don't support Hezbollah, and they are the people who are actually fighting Israel?

6:59Yeah, but we want the resistance from the state of Lebanon, not only from a group of Lebanese, not only a constituency in Lebanon. Do you think the Lebanese army should fight Israel? The Lebanese army is not in a capability now to fight. That's why we need to have a strategy of defense of national security, where the main pillar of it is our army, and where the decision is for the Lebanese government, not for Hezbollah. And any Lebanese, rather all the Lebanese, should be integrated in that strategy of defending the country. Now, I've been reading things by analysts lately that say that if there's too much of a push against Hezbollah, too much of a push perhaps to disarm it, that once again, Lebanon could go towards civil war.

7:48Do you think that's a risk? That's a real risk, and that's something that we should avoid. That's why we should support Lebanon in liberating our occupied territories. We should support the state of Lebanon. And this state of Lebanon, a strong state of Lebanon, should impose on Hezbollah its disarming in a way that could not take us to a civil war. That may look a bit complicated, but that's achievable. Well, it's very complicated in Lebanon because of the system that you have here, the way the power is divided, the way, too, that over the years there's been some very poor management, there's been corruption.

8:28How do you deal with all of that stuff all at once? Lebanon is a country with multiple problems. That, again, has weakened the state of Lebanon. The corruption, the poor management of the country, and the fact that we have an armed group that ended up having a benefit of being stronger than the state. So any Lebanese group should be weaker than the state of Lebanon. And that is the process that we need to go through. I'm trying to work out in my own head where this starts. What is the first step along this process? Okay, the first step is to have a united Lebanese position around a national security strategy, a policy for all of Lebanon, where this will include in it the exclusivity of the arms in the hands of the state, and at the same time, the liberation of the Lebanese occupied territories.

9:24And then, diplomatically and politically, having a state of a neutral Lebanon, disassociated from the conflicts of the region. That's the best protection for the country. And this will be guaranteed by the great powers, on top of them, the United States of America, which will guarantee our security through a defense treaty with the Americans. Let's talk a little bit about Iran and the war that's going on with the Americans and the Israelis there. Do you think that Hezbollah is fighting for Lebanon or for Iran? Unfortunately, Hezbollah is fighting, defending the Lebanese territories, but unfortunately, following the Iranian agenda.

10:08And that's what made him lose his popular legitimacy and his constitutional support. They still have supporters. I've seen them in the south of Beirut. Yeah, they have a support within their community, but they lost support of most of the other communities. And that's unfortunate because if it was only about defending Lebanon, they were the ones to gain the popularity and the support from people like us. And they lost it because they dragged the country into a war that is not in the interest or benefit of Lebanon. They did it first, the first one, for the interest of Gaza and the Palestinians, and the second one for the interest and benefit of the Iranians.

10:54They're not going to change, though, are they? No, they have the possibility to change, because after all, they are Lebanese, and they don't know that they cannot be isolated inside their own country. This is not good for them. This is not good for the country. And they cannot be always connected to Iran. They can be spiritually and religiously guided by Iran, but they cannot, on politics and on the expense of the interests of Lebanon, be guided by Iran. After they lost their leadership, the Israelis killed the leaders. Do you think they're capable of making those decisions? Because, of course, a lot of, you know, there's a lot of evidence that a lot of the day-to-day business there is now done by Iranians in terms of running the war, for example.

11:40You know, with such movements, new leaders will emerge. So betting on beating such an armed and resisting group by force, I believe, is a lost bet. You need to pressure them, but to give them an alternative. An alternative not only for them to be disarmed, but an alternative to the country by itself to be well defended and to be liberated. Lebanon has the right to live in sovereignty, liberty, dignity, and in peace. Isn't there association with Iran doing you one favor in Lebanon, and that is that the Iranians are demanding that if there's going to be a deal to stop the war in the Gulf, there has to be a deal to stop the war here.

12:26I mean, that's good for Lebanon, isn't it? This can be good for Lebanon if Iran is able to have enough power to impose a cessation of war, not only on the Iranian soul, but also on the Lebanese soil. That would be good for Lebanon on the condition that it would not be benefiting the Iranians in order to continue with a situation that is no more bearable. A situation where Hezbollah is having his own agenda outside the Lebanese agenda or the Lebanese decision-making.

13:08You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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14:26It was at a gala screening of the World Cup. They've set up a huge screen and hundreds of local people were there. there was a band, dancing cheerleaders and acrobats doing tricks with footballs. It felt a long way from the war in the South. And that's the way the people of Batroun want to keep it. Gibran Basile is popular here, but elsewhere in Lebanon, he has been very unpopular. The Americans sanctioned him in 2020, accusing him of systematic corruption and ties with Hezbollah, the pro-Iranian group he's now broken with. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Gibran Basile. You're a leader of the Christian community here in Lebanon.

15:08Tell me something. Outside, there is a beautiful seaside town. You've arranged an event for people to watch the World Cup. Seems very peaceful. It's very, very different to the south. Explain to people who don't understand Lebanon or haven't been here how all this works, different communities, different places, in only a very small country? You know, it's not only about the Christians, nor my party, nor our movement. No, it's about the Lebanese, where the Christians give a different taste to the country by having more diversity in it. And where we express our way to live, our way to fight, our way to resist.

15:53You know, our main objective is to live in peace and in dignity in this country and in this region and to act, you know, with our role and with our freedom and to express ourselves how we can give a nice taste and a nice flavor to this country and to this region. And that's why don't take it as a paradox, seeing in the same time that people are being killed in the South, there is bombardment and occupation, and in the North or in the middle of the country, you will see people having their own way of fighting because we want to live and to express our way of living, not only of showing a joyful life, but showing our will to resist in the end.

16:41It's our way not to leave the country, not to immigrate because Lebanon, you know, has the biggest diaspora in the world. So enough immigration. We want to have our people well spread all over the world, but also staying in this country. When Lebanon became an independent country, Christians dominated it. But that's no longer the case, is it? It's the case of Europe, too. The same way, following the same pattern of decreasing the number of Christians in Lebanon is the same what's happening in England and in Europe. I mean, people in Europe would say that's a bit of an exaggeration. You will see it happening, because we went through this.

17:22We went through this not only in Lebanon. We went through this in Palestine mainly, in Bethlehem, in Nasserah, in Jerusalem. We saw this recently in Iraq and in Syria, in Jordan, in Palestine, in Lebanon. We're a beleaguered community, Christians, in the Middle East. We are leading by our role. And our role is not to fight with our communities, it's to coexist with them. in peace and in dignity again. And that's why what I'm saying is that the phenomenon is not only because of the rate of birth and that big gap between the Christians and the Muslims. Muslims have more babies, right? Of course.

18:08But the main reason is the Christians looting their faith, their faith in everything, and one of them in their belonging to this part of the world, to their belonging to their values, to their Christianity, you know, to their beliefs. This is where Lebanon has an importance of keeping the values. The world cannot be only directed by force and by economy and by interests. Let's look a little bit around the region here. This is the most turbulent part of the world. There are wars going on almost wherever you look is how it feels sometimes. And the last two and a half years since the 7th of October attacks by Hamas on Israel, there's been nonstop war all over the place.

18:53As a resident of this area, this part of the world, do you feel positive about the future at any point? Or do you see this massive, mess of problems? Frankly, we have our fears and our concerns. And we managed to survive because of our resilience. but what the compensation is that we are still able to survive and that we are trying to warn others like the Europeans that what is happening to us will happen to them. So even if we escape here going to Europe, you know, we will face this in Europe with some few years of a gap. So you are with the likes of the U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance who says there's a civilizational deterioration and decline in Europe?

19:43I believe this is happening everywhere, not only in Europe. What, because of Muslims? Not because of Muslims, because of the lack of the acceptance of the other, the lack of accepting that we are different, and we have to live with our differences, to respect each other's beliefs and religions. So Lebanon is not the only country that is diverse, But it's the only country where we have a real partnership in power. And this is why the model of Lebanon should survive. Because if we fail here, you will fail in Europe, you will fail everywhere else. We were talking earlier and you said there was, you thought there was a risk that there could be another civil war in this country because of the potential difficulties in Hezbollah giving up their weapons.

20:30How would that work? I mean, how would you slip again into that abyss? Frankly, again, I believe that we have enough will and awareness if we are left alone as Lebanese not to get into a new civil war. The main fear is that this civil war will get fueled by foreign countries, fueled with money, fueled with arms and mainly fueled with provocation. how do you insulate yourself against that? Because one of Lebanon's curses over the years is that foreign powers, powerful countries, have used your country as a battlefield. Exactly. And they're doing it again right now. You are totally right. And this is why we are calling for a neutral Lebanon.

21:20What we call is an active neutrality, is a smart neutrality, is to not only being disassociated from the conflict, but on the contrary, being active in solving them. Not only to stay aside, on the contrary, not being part of it, but being actively working on filling the gap of bridging between communities. And this is what the Lebanese know best. As a reporter, I spent quite a lot of time reporting on what happens in this part of the world. And sometimes it seems, as a foreigner, it really seems quite hopeless because just when there's one serious problem somewhere, then another one starts somewhere else.

22:01Problems in Gaza, problems in the West Bank, problems in Israel, here, Iran. Do you have hope that this thing can be sorted out in any sense? Without hope, we cannot live, especially in this region. Of course, I have hope. But I know also the difficulties. And I know the complexity of, you know, the world cannot stay silent on breaching international laws. You know, on disrespecting, you know, the will of the international community on imposing human rights, the rights of people to live in peace. Who are you talking about here? You're talking about Israel. I'm talking about Israel, of course, because what's happening in this country, in this region, are crimes of war.

22:44I don't know if we have ever witnessed an army that is demolishing a whole village. after the end of the war, you know, where you see contractors coming in and demolishing churches, mosques, you know, attacking the religious symbols of all the society and, you know, actually eliminating every aspect of life, eliminating a history, a civilization with its symbols. So, no, this cannot be accepted. Now, the Israelis apologized of those incidents when Christian symbols were attacked. And they say, look, we're protecting our people. You know, people in the north of our country, they have to live in fear.

23:25That's not acceptable. You know, I said it before, an incident can happen. A collateral damage in a war can happen. But when it is in a repetitive manner, you know, a soldier, you know, can insult the Christ on the church. But an army bombarding a church or a mosque repeatedly until total destruction, this is not an error of a soldier. When this happens repeatedly in a war, this is very significant. And again, we are calling for a settlement of the conflict. We, the Lebanese, are able to live in peace and harmony in the region with Israel and with all our neighbors. We are capable to do it very easily.

24:12The question, are the Israelis and not the people here? I'm not talking about the Jews. I'm talking about the Israeli politicians, the Israeli government. Are they willing to have real peace? And this will have to go through tri-faith process, which is we start first by a truth, then peace, and then normalization. You cannot impose normalization before you have an end of the war.

24:41Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the World Health Organization's Hanan Balki, Ali Bahraini, Iranian ambassador to the UN, and Assyrian minister, Hind Kabawat. Until the next time, bye for now.

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25:57But a key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting. And is the situation better, worse or the same for the region and Iran? For the full story, check out The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.