Gustavo Petro, Colombian President: US military action is a real threat

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1:16Hello, I'm Ioni Wells, the BBC's South America correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years. That's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me.

1:56For this interview, I met Colombian President Gustavo Petro in Bogotá. Petro is Colombia's first left-wing president, a former guerrilla fighter turned reformist leader. He's been in office since August 2022, championing social justice, environmental policies and regional diplomacy. His flagship policy was known as Total Peace, a strategy of negotiating with criminal armed groups. but his critics, including President Trump, think he's been too soft on crime and drug trafficking. In our conversation, he expressed growing concern about US-Colombia relations, saying he believes there is now a real threat of US military action against his country.

2:36His remarks follow comments by US President Donald Trump, who recently said a military operation targeting Colombia sounds good, and accused Petro himself of being a drug trafficker, which he has denied. About a week after Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro was seized in Caracas by US forces, President Petro warns that the United States risks shifting from a position of global leadership to one of increasing isolation, due to what he described as imperial-style behaviour on the world stage. He also spoke about a recent phone call with Mr Trump, as well as ongoing conversations with senior Venezuelan officials, including Delci Rodriguez.

3:13figures. The president reserved some of his strongest criticism for US immigration enforcement.

3:21For us, ICE operates the same way as the Nazi and Italian brigades, the fascists, persecuting and provoking people. And it has reached the point where they no longer just persecute Latin Americans in the streets, which for us is an affront, but they also kill citizens of the United States. So it's a matter for reflection. Because if you look at all of this together, plus what could continue to develop, instead of a United States dominating the world, the imperial dream, it's a United States isolated from the world.

3:59Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Colombian President Gustavo Petro.

4:08The one who arranged the conversation was Senator Rand Paul, a Republican doctor from Kentucky, whom I don't know personally, but who, through my diplomatic service and the nation's diplomatic corps in the United States, became interested in the matter and mediated. He felt that any military action in Colombia would be highly inappropriate, and he tried and succeeded. We had a conversation practically the next day. They sent us messages asking us to set a time, and finally it took place at 5 o 'clock right here, using special telephone equipment brought by embassy officials. It lasted 55 minutes.

4:50I spent most of it talking about two topics, the issue of drug trafficking in Colombia and the falsity of the figures regarding the comments being made to the United States government. And the second was basically Venezuela and our perspective on what's happening with Latin America's relationship with the United States. President Donald Trump, afterward, referred, as he wrote in the tweet, to how much he enjoyed our conversation and that we were going to meet in person. We created a mechanism for this, and everything else is just my personal impression, which relates to the following. Since there was never any direct communication with Joe Biden from the moment he took office, it was very intense.

5:36The communication gap that existed with the Colombian government was filled, firstly, by the Colombian opposition in the United States, who went en masse trying to convince the US government, in a sense a military action, of isolating the president. We were in the midst of an election. It was an electoral act by the opposition. How would you describe President Trump in a few words?

6:07I don't know him personally, so I can't say. I only observe what's happening through external analysis. It seems to me that there's a problem in the United States that dates back decades. It even seems to be over a century old. I was just reading an academic study by two women on this topic, which is basically the conception that the United States has held regarding its international relations under various administrations. It sees them as an empire without regard for the rights of nations, especially those of Latin America. And a chart appears showing that 33 % of violent interventions have been in Latin America.

6:52That goes back a long way, so to speak. And now, as I said in the conversation, as long as the United States economy is based on oil and coal, 70 % of its energy sources, that's enormous, it will tend to seek wars over oil and coal. The Venezuelan issue is about this. In my opinion, if the United States and its policies were aligned with the Paris Agreement, That is, if they were to completely replace that 70 % of its energy with clean energy, there would be no wars. There would be a much more democratic and peaceful relationship with the world and South America. This is the important point, and I conveyed it to him.

7:37And President Trump has said that military action in Colombia sounds good. How serious a threat do you think that is?

7:48I do believe it's a real threat, and the prospect of removing it depends on the ongoing conversations. Colombia has already experienced military violence from the United States, most recently in Panama at the beginning of the 20th century. Today, Panama is not part of Colombia. Colombia has lost territory many times, but this is just one example. So we don't think we're just talking for the sake of talking, and even less so from the moment there was a verbal altercation in relations. We seek dialogue because we know there is a deceitful, unofficial mediation between the two governments, ideological rather and perverse.

8:33Colombians should know that their history is increasingly marked by civil wars, unlike Venezuela. The last 75 years of Colombian history have been so violent that there have been 700 ,000 murders, motivated primarily by political sectarianism at first, and now by drug trafficking, because of our fight against drug trafficking.

9:02President Trump has also said to you personally to watch your back. How worried are you for your personal safety? Yes, but let's say that faced with the threat of the magnitude of such a powerful army, such powerful military forces in Colombia, their response isn't exactly the same as what was attempted in Venezuela. Colombia's history shows how it has responded to large armies. Our defense isn't in barracks. It's in the mountains, the jungles. And that's why there have been 75 years of violence in Colombia. It's not an exaggeration. There are 700 ,000 deaths among our own people, which is a consequence of the type of political leadership we've had, the same leadership that has tarnished relations between Colombia and the United States, which have always been based on collaboration.

10:00I never withdrew the existing established collaboration in the fight against drug trafficking. Colombian intelligence participates in 63 % of seizure operations, and the data from the three years of my administration shows that we have seized 2 ,800 tons. This is the highest figure in world history, and this fact presented and certified to President Trump, who has received completely different and contradictory data, has created a situation that, while somewhat unclear, is indeed rooted in the United States' national security doctrine. This doctrine, in my opinion, has been a disease of U.S. international policy for at least a century, namely the disregard for the national sovereignty of other nations.

10:58Can you be sure that the US won't do to you, to Colombia, what it has done in Venezuela with Nicolás Maduro?

11:10There was a major weakness in Nicolás Maduro, one that stemmed from Venezuelan politics itself, a stage of degradation of the process initiated by Chávez. This led to a significant withdrawal of support from Venezuelan society. The negotiation style, which I, as a mediator, and many others, including Mexico, what I'll focus on myself, between the Maduro government and the Biden administration, was the reason for my meetings with both sides. The goal was to seek free elections, and free elections implied the lifting of US sanctions on Venezuela, the end of the blockade against opposition groups in Venezuela, and the guarantee of these elections from the Venezuelan side.

11:57There were two negotiations going on, and I must say I was wrong. A meeting was held here in Bogota with the United States government, the Venezuelan government, the Venezuelan opposition, and governments from Europe and Latin America nearby. That was the proposal, and perhaps the last meeting, because what had been promised by both sides was not fulfilled. There was neither an end to the electoral process nor an end to the persecution of the groups. All of that failed, and this stage ended. I did not recognize the elections held in Venezuela. I didn't return. Trump came, and I tried to reach an agreement with the Venezuelan government regarding an offensive on the border against drug trafficking groups.

12:45They carried out operations. Perhaps we were more focused on other groups than on the ELN, but let's just say that attempt at mediation failed. I just spoke with Delcy, whom I've known for a long time. Negotiations between Venezuelan forces must be between Venezuelan forces. Two must lead to a process. I invited Delcy Rodriguez here. I don't know if it will happen, but I think it would be important. I also just spoke with President Lula of Brazil. I believe we must focus our efforts primarily on national dialogue in Venezuela, toward a shared government that builds trust across all sectors of Venezuelan society, and then hold free elections.

13:32Whoever wins, it's the decision of the Venezuelan people that matters. I told Trump that I thought it was very good that there was, or at least what's been reported in the press, that the oil was bought at market price. Because our nations are free, sovereign, and their role is to engage with everyone. Everyone, including the United States. The proposal I made to him is that we switch from oil to clean energy because the benefit to humanity would be immense. The United States is the second country in terms of CO2 emissions from the use of oil and coal and so on. And cleaning up the United States' energy consumption would be humanity's first great step towards sustaining life on the planet.

14:24You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed. Hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

15:16And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:42Colombia's President Gustavo Petro was running very late to our interview from meetings. He looked visibly exhausted and warned me he was ill, perhaps not surprising after the week that had just passed. I'd been wanting to speak with him for many months and had thought I was travelling to Bogota to interview his foreign or defence ministers. But overnight, a handful of interviews with the press were hastily arranged in his ornate presidential residence. Clearly, the calculation was made that at a time of great tension between the US and the region, he wanted Colombia's perspective heard on the global stage.

16:15Okay, let's return to my conversation with Gustavo Petro. Do you know if the CIA had an insider within Nicolás Maduro's inner circle? And do you know with certainty that there aren't people in your government, people even in this house, who aren't sharing intelligence with the U.S.? Regarding Venezuela, well, supposedly, Venezuela has long been subject to interference by various intelligence agencies, not only American ones, without the permission of its government. In our case, they were also given permission to be here for about 50 years, but solely for the purpose of combating drug trafficking.

17:02I kept that going based exclusively on the fight against drug trafficking. There have been covert operations in Colombia. I myself denounced the most recent one called Pegasus, an Israeli spyware program introduced by the top brass of the national police through the airport, paid for by the CIA and which is not authorized under our law. It is an illegal act that the Colombian prosecutor's office has refused to investigate, but it is the latest such act discovered. I believe we must always maintain written and public rules, and that means that my government has maintained collaboration with intelligent agencies from Europe, the Arab world, North America, including the United States, and South America, currently based in Manaus, with the single goal, to defend the Amazon rainforest and save Latin America from the influence of the mafias that are now multinational corporations.

18:04President Trump has also accused you personally of trafficking cocaine. What is your response to that?

18:14Well, I think that's what the Colombian far right was telling the US government without speaking to us. But I publicly released my bank statements here. I only have one account with three banks. And since 2020, they've examined it here. They never found anything anomalous. And I only own my house, which I'm paying off because I built it with a mortgage. I almost lost it once, and that's all I have. I don't even have a car. And they probably searched the whole world to see if I had any properties on the front man. But they've never found anything, because I'm not so stupid as to not know that a progressive political leader can become president for the first time in two centuries of a rotten oligarchy.

19:01Oligarchies are to blame for drug trafficking in Colombia, and even being corrupt is no longer acceptable. People voted for me because I've proved that I am not involved in that. For 20 years, and this is important, I have been fighting against the drug cartels, at the cost of my family having to go into exile, my mother, my father and others. And they tried to assassinate me four times, because a narco-terrorist cartel, as Trump says, the largest in the world at that time, 10 years ago, the Colombian paramilitaries, murdered 200 ,000 people. It was the main cocaine exporting cartel at that time, and its owners were the political power in Colombia and 35 % of the Senate, thanks to my policies and the legal process, I put 35 % of the Senate in jail.

19:55Tell me, when have you ever seen in a nation that 35 % of the senators end up being allies of narcoterrorism and that the current president denounced them? narcoterrorism, and that the president of the president has denounced them. Should you have adopted a more tough military stance to tackle narco-trafficking, rather than just trying to talk? That's the whole relationship, the narrative, let's call it that, of the Colombian far-right. The armed groups that exist today, except for the ELN, which has existed since 1964 as an insurgency, is now consumed by cocaine trafficking. The Duki administration created them.

20:43I inherited them armed and violent. What we've developed today is two simultaneous approaches. One, talking about peace with groups that are bandits, it's no longer politics, and the other, developing a military offensive against those who don't want peace. There are still ongoing negotiations in the south of the country where the greatest reduction in coca leaf cultivation has occurred. It's in the south of the country where the homicide rate in Colombia has fallen the most. This past year was one of the lowest years for homicide rates in Colombia since 1993, and indeed of the century. So let's say the policy of dialogue, as I just demonstrated, serves to de-escalate violence.

21:31But we are not fools. We know who we are negotiating with. This is no longer a political problem. It's a problem of greed. And to that extent, we've carried out 1 ,440 armed confrontations, capturing 40 ,000 members of these types of structures. The problem is they recover quickly because it's about money. And we've carried out 12 bombings that I ordered within the framework of international humanitarian law. Now, the final result is the seizure, which is my priority. I don't want to target the farmers like Duki did. I need the farmers allied with the state to truly eradicate the plantations. The seizures we've made are the largest cocaine seizures in world history.

22:26Finally, President, what do you want from the US now? And what's your message to the American people?

22:34Well, I think they need to reflect first, and we, Latin America, need to come together. People took to the streets in Venezuelan cities, a huge number of people in Colombian cities, and social unrest erupted in parts of the United States over an event unrelated to them, but because of the murder of a citizen by ICE. For us, ICE operates the same way as the Nazi and Italian brigades, the fascists, persecuting and provoking people. And it has reached the point where they no longer just persecute Latin Americans in the streets, which for us is an affront, but they also kill citizens of the United States.

23:16So it's a matter for reflection. Because if you look at all of this together, plus what could continue to develop, Instead of a United States dominating the world, the imperial dream, it's a United States isolated from the world. And an empire is not built in isolation from the world. It happened to Rome, and that part they have to decide, because a United States that is relevant in the world is achieved through democratic dialogue and the construction of democratic rules in the world. I call that global democracy, and I believe its objective should be humanity's main problem, which is that we are on the verge of extinction if we move from climate crisis to collapse.

24:02This can only be solved if we move away from consuming oil, gas and coal, and the technology exists to do so. The alternative is extinction through consumption. You just need to extract oil reserves, and Venezuela needs to drain them quickly. And Colombia's coal reserves, which are among the largest in the world, need to be used quickly, and there won't be a single human being left alive on planet Earth. That, yes, is a weapon of mass destruction, and what we need to do is leave them stored underground and move to a decarbonized economy. me. I told this to President Donald Trump in the phone call.

24:45He didn't respond much, but I think this issue needs to be analysed.

25:11Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern. Until the next time, bye for now.