HARDtalk: Coda

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story? What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacker.

0:47Today, we're bringing you a special programme to mark the closing of Hard Talk after three decades of holding power to account across the world. From democracies to dictatorships, we've spoken to presidents, prime ministers and those leading movements for change. It's journalism that has mattered to us and we hope it's mattered to you too. So listen again to some of the highlights as Hard Talk digs deep into the archive. In 2010, I travelled to Venezuela and spoke to the president, Hugo Chavez. You say it's possible to have some form of capitalism within a socialist system. Is it possible to have genuine democracy and genuine respect for the rule of law within your socialism?

1:36I'll tell you something. 11 years ago, I arrived here and was quite gullible. I even believed in a third way. But it was all a farce. I thought it was possible to put together a type of Rhenish capitalism, to put a human face on capitalism. But I realised this was not possible. I was wrong. Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest. Rousseau said, between the powerful and the weak, all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free. That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism.

2:17There's no dictatorship here. I was elected three times. And when the rich threw me out in a coup, the people brought me back to power. I'm a Democrat. Mr. President, there are many different international groups, Latin American groups, who've questioned your commitment to the rule of law. When Human Rights watch wrote a report about this very subject, you threw out the two people who wrote the report. So it seems that whenever people are critical of your record, you do not accept it.

2:54Firstly, I respect the opinion of any person or institution in the world, but I have the same right to answer back when I think they are lying or are telling half-truths or are using lies to make continual allegations against Venezuela. I'd like to see the human rights reports on the United States government, which bombs cities and kills children.

3:18Inevitably, some recurring themes have emerged in our interviews with leaders from around the world. Respect, or lack of it, for human rights and the rule of law. Integrity and honesty in government. I've had the privilege of asking the kind of questions which citizens want answered, but which journalists in many countries are under enormous pressure not to ask. During a trip to Sri Lanka in 2010, I spoke to the defence minister, the president's brother, Gautabia Rajapaksa. There is an authoritarian tendency in Sri Lanka. No. Is it justifiable, for example... This is very unfair to use these words.

4:03It's very unfair. We have a democratically elected president, a democratically elected government. But you don't, for example, have a free press, do you? I don't know why people are harping on these things. Well, I'll tell you why, because internationally there is great concern that journalists who write perhaps critical pieces about your government end up in serious trouble. And some of them end up there, as you well know. These are LTT propaganda. These are propaganda by the people who are against the government. So the international community goes on. No, forgive me. It's not propaganda that La Santa, for example, the editor of the Sunday Leader, was assassinated on the streets of the Capitol.

4:48That's not propaganda. No, read the papers. Read the daily papers. Read the weekend papers. Well, I've read all of the papers. How many tabloids criticizing the government, criticizing the power? Criticizing is fine. But how many bogus reports? How many muddling? But hang on a minute. When Mr. Vikramatunga wrote his valedictory piece, he foretold his own death. He wrote this. He said, and this is just days before he was shot dead on the streets of Colombo, murder, he said, has become the primary tool whereby the state seeks to control the organs of liberty. Don't go by these people who are writing against.

5:28You know, there are enough people. He's not writing anymore. He's dead. Are you worried that you personally may be accused of war crimes? I'm not worried because I have not done any crime. As you know, that is not... Fighting terrorism, a crime. Depends how you fight it. Yeah. Depends what you do. There is only way to fight terrorism. Fight. I don't see it. If you believe you're involved in a war on terror, it would not allow you, for example, to give an order to one of your senior officers telling him to shoot people who are trying to surrender waving a white flag. I have never given it. That would still be a war cry.

6:02Nobody had done that. Nobody had done that. Well, you know that the army commander at the end of the war has since given interviews in which he says he has information that you gave an army commander the instruction to shoot. Don't grab these political issues. You know who he is. He contested for his personal gains. So don't drag him into this. But this is General Fonseca who says he has information that you gave the order to shoot. That is a political game. Well, that's what I want to pursue now. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. You keep saying it's a political game. Is the fact that General Fonseca is now in detention?

6:39He's lying. He's in detention. He faces court martial. Is that because he, in essence, accused you of a war crime? And he also said he would be prepared to... That is one point. And he also said... Hang on, he also... That is one point. He also said he would testify before an independent war crimes investigation. Is that what you are frightened of? Yes, Yes, it is that one point. He can't do that. He was the commander. He's responsible. That's a treason. We will hang him if he do that. I'm telling you, that's a treason. In 2009, my colleague Zainab Badawi went to Sudan to speak to the president, Omar al-Bashir.

7:20Do you understand, Mr President, how serious these charges are against you? Seven counts against you. Murder, extermination, forcible transfer of population, torture and rape. This is all lies. The reality on the ground proves otherwise. People who allege torture, once they left the fighting zones, they changed their testimony to the contrary. I mean, all the displaced people sought refuge in areas controlled by the government, by the armed forces and the police. They enjoyed the protection and security of the government. So how come that on the one hand, they allege that the government is behind the torture, yet at the same time, they flee those zones to seek protection of the government?

8:06How many people do you think have died in Darfur? The United Nations, John Holmes, the humanitarian coordinator, says up to 300 ,000. He says that's an extrapolation. What is your figure? We say that all these figures are fictitious. They have nothing to do with reality. And as I said, all events in Darfur. But how do you know, Mr. President, how many have died? You're saying it's an exaggeration. Do you know how many have died? Yes.

8:37Any incident that happens in Darfur, we have it reported. If there is a dispute between citizens, as we have government departments there, they take care of it. And there is strife between the armed forces or the insurgents. So how many? You've given a figure of past 10 ,000?

8:57What we say is that our armed forces also had casualties, also among the insurgents, and the tribes also had their own losses. There are also tribal strifes and fighting. This had nothing to do with any ethnic background. It could be between an Arab tribe and another. Do you regret that? Do you regret those 10 ,000?

9:23We do not accept the death of even one citizen. We are for peace. We have signed a peace agreement. But there are organisations and movements supported by the West who carry arms against the state. Give me an example of one state in the world where there are insurgents who launch armed attacks against the state and the government did not try to quell it. You could, as the Sudanese government, simply declare a unilateral ceasefire in Darfur, so the killing could stop. Unamid says, we can monitor the ceasefire. Why don't you do that, have a unilateral ceasefire? Firstly, there is an insurrection against the state and they refused a ceasefire.

10:05After that, we have to protect the country and the citizens. If they reject peace, we cannot stand idle. We should fight. But we are not going to wait and allow the rebel movements a free hand to control Darfur. So the violence continues. The peace process is going nowhere. Who is responsible for that? Hard talk hasn't just spoken to those in power. It's also interviewed those seeking to challenge power. In many countries, political protest, dissent, opposition carries with it great risk. And courage is a quality that I've encountered many times over the years. Back in 2017, I spoke to Alexei Navalny, one of the few prominent Russians ready to make a stand against President Vladimir Putin.

10:52The anti-corruption campaigner and opposition leader was targeted for assassination in 2020. He miraculously survived nerve agent poisoning. After recovering in Germany, he returned to Russia, knowing he was a marked man. He was convicted of financial crimes and imprisoned in the harshest of conditions. He died in prison in February 2024. You know that you are treading a very fine line. And if you go one inch too far, you'll end up in prison or who knows. I definitely don't draw this line for myself. I just do what I can do in this particular moment. And I don't care about what Kremlin is doing, what their strategy about keeping me in prison or releasing me.

11:38Maybe you know that I had actually a moment when they imprisoned me for five years. And I spent a night in the prison knowing nothing about what's going on in Moscow, where tens of thousands of people came in the street. And they forced, actually, Vladimir Putin to release me. And about, you know, this discussion, you have your moment and now your moment is gone. these people who came in the street, they are not gone. They're still living in the city. They're still living in the country. And let me stop you there. Are you absolutely determined? You talk about your run for the presidency. You're determined, come what may, to challenge Vladimir Putin in the election, which we believe will come in 2018.

12:20You are going to run, are you? Yeah, I'm going to run. And well, I'm not a naive person. I understand that Kremlin is very unhappy with me running. And I understand that they will do everything to prevent me from running. And recently, several Kremlin's officials said that he's not allowed to participate. But still, I am going to appeal to the people and ask for them support. I mean, in this office where we speak, you've already got your logos organized, Navalny 2018. But I put it to you that if you lose this court case in Kirov, based on accusations of embezzlement and fraud, you will be barred from running.

12:57And whatever you tell me about your determination... It actually does nothing in the current country. Well, as I said, they imprisoned me for five years and they released me on the next day. What kind of law? The same with my participation in mayor election. It was almost impossible to participate. But when people came in the street and said, we are not going to recognize this election without him participating. So you think you can use people power against Putin? Absolutely. Actually, it's only a tool I can do. It's only I have. Mr. Navalny, I'm tempted to say to you, get real. You know what happened to Khodorkovsky.

13:35You know what happened to Kasparov, who's now in exile. You know what happened to Boris Nemtsov. Are you telling me to get real? I am real. I can assure you that I'm real. And my brother's spending his time in jail. He's took away from his family. As you mentioned, he's in solitary confinement. And they are really torturing him every time when I'm issuing new investigations. So I'm a guy from the real life here in Russia. And I understand everything. And I do believe that people's support can prevail the strategy, what kind of strategy Putin has against me. At Hard Talk, we've strived to maintain a reputation for independent, impartial interviewing.

14:15That's why people have been prepared to talk to us across the deepest divides. During the same visit to Russia, I also spoke to Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for President Vladimir Putin. I just spoke to Alexei Navalny, perhaps the leading voice in opposition to President Putin. He said to me, you know why Putin fights these wars, why he is projecting Russia's power in different arenas around the world? He is trying to distract the Russian people from what is going on inside their own country. The millions and millions condemned to live in poverty. The systemic corruption, which is seeing a tiny elite at the top enriching themselves on the back of the majority of Russians who see no growth, no prosperity.

15:03That's what he's going to campaign on. And that is going to cause you and your boss a great deal of trouble. Well, you know, unfortunately, we have a very weak opposition in our country. I wonder why that is. Could it be because they're not allowed access to state television, for example? No, it's not about state television. Well, you have modern media. You have modern media, and viewership of television is diminishing day by day. In Russia today, if you switch on the TV and you want to find an opposition voice, it is almost impossible. American president is winning elections using Twitter. In order to be a successful opposition, you have to be sustainable.

15:43You have to have a program of development of the country. You also have to be allowed a semblance of freedom. You have to be a person who is not at risk of being assassinated, as Boris Nemtsov was just 100 meters from the Kremlin. You have to be a guy, unlike Alexei Navalny, who finds his brother is locked up on trumped up charges, and he himself is facing more trumped-up charges. You need a space, a freedom to operate and build a political movement. In Russia today, you know as well as I do, that's impossible. Why don't you think that they are not fair charges? Because the European Court of Human Rights has declared that they are political and it said that they were illegitimate.

16:21We don't agree with that. We don't agree with that. You don't agree with the European Court of Human Rights? Yes, I'd rather trust our own court. and we do have much more confidence in our own court system. Do you read Alexei Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundation website? Once in a while, once in a while, yes. You would have seen your own name up there recently. Yeah, most frequently. Yeah, he wants to know how come a guy like you, a public servant on a, you know, not bad but modest salary, how you come you live in a villa, which he's very pleased to show me, you know, which is worth, he says, because he's spoken to the realtors,$15 million.

17:00And of course, the very famous watch of yours, which was worth£400 ,000. Try to double check it with the different real estate agencies. Try to double check that. Do you want to tell me how much your villa is worth? I'm very happy to take your estimate. If we're here to discuss the cost of my villa, I hope it's quite expensive. Hard talk has travelled the world in pursuit of interviews that matter. It's taken us to dictatorships, to one-party states, war zones and disputed territories. But wherever we've set up our cameras, whether in a land where independent journalism is welcome or unwelcome, we've adopted the same impartial, rigorous approach.

17:45whether in London or Washington, Caracas or Moscow, the job has been to hold power to account. In 2009, I spoke to the then mayor of London, who later became prime minister of the UK, Boris Johnson. The leader of your party, the Conservative Party, David Cameron, is trying to take a grip, at least as far as he can, on his own party. He's told his shadow cabinet that they must abandon all their outside activities, their second jobs by the end of the year. Now, you are the mayor of London. I checked this morning. I believe your salary is just short of£140 ,000. You have a massive job. You've just told me how dizzyingly exciting and challenging it is.

18:25And yet you have a contract with a national newspaper worth£250 ,000 a year. Chicken feet. Yeah, OK. Chicken feet. Listen, let's be... Do you think most people in London are regarded as chicken food, particularly at a time of economic recession, that you're earning£250 ,000 on the side as a newspaper? Well, I don't presume to ask what you earn from the taxpayer. And I think that, frankly, there's absolutely no reason at all why I should not, on a Sunday morning, before I do whatever else I need to do on a Sunday morning, should not knock off an article. as a way of relaxation, a kind of mental...

19:06Why shouldn't I? I mean, do you really see a reason why shouldn't? I think it's... I'm just looking at your party leader who has sent a signal to all of his senior people saying you can't have these outside activities. If the public are to believe that we are truly committed to serving their purposes, we have to be fully focused on the job at hand. I'm not sure. I'm wondering when you're getting a quarter of a million pounds a year from somebody else for writing, whether you're really fully focused on your job as mayor. Well, as I say, I see absolutely no reason why I should not do what I... I write anyway.

19:40I happen to write extremely fast. I don't see why on a Sunday morning I shouldn't knock off an article. If someone wants to pay me for that article, then that's their lookout. And, of course, I make a substantial donation to charity. Maybe that money should not go to charity. Maybe you'd rather I didn't make those contributions to charity. In 2023, I spoke to the former Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi. You were at the centre of the storm on January 6th, 2021, when the Capitol was invaded by a rioting mob. They invaded your office. People have since been prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for what they did.

20:22You said at the time it was caught on camera. You didn't know it was being filmed. But you said at the time all this was unfolding and you'd been forced to flee. You said about the prospect of Trump coming to the Capitol. I hope he comes. I want to punch him out. This is the moment I've been waiting for it. I want to punch him out. I'm going to go to jail and I'm going to be happy. That's right. I said that, you know, I didn't realize that would be broadcast or went out there. I understand the level of your anger, but doesn't that suggest that you, in a sense, were drawn into this toxic political culture, which many Americans right now could lead to further political violence?

21:01Nobody gets any equivalence to my saying, I want to punch him out, which I've wanted to do for a long time, but now he gave me more reason to what is happening at the Capitol. So don't try to put any equivalence. I'm not suggesting that equivalence. All I'm saying is that your anger, your sense that this was undermining America's democratic system has its own feedback loop. And that right now, we are honoring our oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Now, the Constitution of the United States on that day said that Congress would accept the Electoral College vote.

21:38That is why they were there that day to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. Yeah. My office said, I have to defend that. There are many Americans, again, according to the polls, who think Joe Biden should not run again because he's simply too old. But it's three years older than, what's his name, your friend. He's three years older than he is. That's a big deal. I don't wish to be ungalant, but you are 82 and you have handed over power in the Democratic Party, in the House of Representatives, to what you called a new generation. That's right. Should Joe Biden be learning from you? No, Joe Biden is the president of the United States.

22:17We have a great president. He's accomplished more. The American people see Joe Biden's mental and physical health. They see it every day on their TV screens. They are drawing conclusions. A clear majority say he is too old. He should not run again. And that's Democrats as well as Republicans. Many of those Democrats, and if you ask those Democrats, they support Joe Biden. They're not supporting somebody else because Joe Biden is old. Joe Biden is wise. He has knowledge. He has a beautiful vision for America. He has knowledge of the issues, therefore judgment and wisdom. He has strategic thinking about getting things done.

22:52That's why his presidency has been so successful on the domestic front. He has empathy and cares about working class families. And we have to communicate that better to the American people. And that is what a campaign is about. We don't care about the negative. We're about the positive. It's not about fear. It's about hope. And you'll see 15 months from now, Joe Biden reelected as president of the United States with great pride. As you say, we'll see. It has been a pleasure and a privilege for us on Hard Talk to be able to bring you three decades of interviews with global leaders. I hope we've shown that accountability matters, maybe now more than ever.

23:39Thanks for listening. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.