Hassan Sheikh Mohamud, President of Somalia : Somalia has a serious security challenge

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

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1:16Hello, I'm Paul Njie, BBC reporter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met Hassan Sheikh Mohammed, the President of Somalia at the Presidential Palace in Mogadishu.

1:58You're going to hear about his strategy to tackle the ongoing terrorist insurgency in his country through military force but also ideological campaigns and financial measures and whether it's working. A travel ban has been imposed on Somalia by the United States, which accuses it of providing a safe haven for terrorists, a view he vigorously contests. President Mohamud also stands resolute in the face of demands for secession by the region of Somaliland, a self-declared republic within Somalia. His country, he says, will not be divided. Somaliland is part of Somalia. Yes, they have grievances.

2:35Yes, they have different way of governing. But Somalia is a federal country today. Chances have been given to all people in different regions to have a say on the way they are ruled. Somalian has the same right, but within the framework of unity. So Somalian is our dear brothers and sisters. We respect them, we respect their views, but the unity of Somalia is a sacrosanct. In the run-up to next year's election, the president wants to see every citizen allowed to vote, a break from the current electoral system of voting by clan elders. His opponents accuse him of trying to further his own prospects, But he says the change is essential to move Somalia towards democracy.

3:18Somalia has a long history of civil unrest that has drawn in U.S. and African Union troops. Since the installation of an internationally backed government in 2012, led by Hassan Sheikh Mohammed in his first term as president, it has been making slow progress towards greater stability. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Hassan Sheikh Mohammed.

3:42The security in Somalia has a long background. We have gone through different security challenges that this country went through for the last 35 years. There was 10 years civil war and then there was 12 years of transitional government and then there is another 12 years, 13 years of permanent government, which is not transition, but very fragile. recently there is no more civil war there is no more other challenges in place the only security challenge today we have is the terrorists al-shabab and isis as well you know somalia has a very serious challenge of security because fighting both al-shabab and isis in two different areas and al-shabab and isis are the most notorious terrorists in the world today particularly al-shabab which is Al-Qaeda-affiliated, is the strongest faction or offshore of Al-Qaeda, which is still existing today.

4:40Our challenges now is Somalia, with its own other fragility challenges in place, building an army and at the same time fighting on the other hand. So in the last three years, we have achieved significant success and progress in the fight against these groups. ISIS in the northeastern Somalia has been almost neutralized. The war is still going on. The challenge is still there. Most of the towns and cities have been liberated from al-Shabaab, but it's still the rural area. They still operate in the rural area. Al-Shabaab is weak compared to their past, but still they are a very serious challenge to the security of the country.

5:26You say that al-Shabaab is weak, Mr. President, but in recent months they have been capturing territories. And your critics say that your government does not have a clear strategy to defeat them. What do you say to that? No, I totally disagree, and that's not realistic. Either they don't know Somalia or they do not follow up with what the government is doing. Here in this country, al-Shabaab is 18 years old in this country. Yes, there was a very serious propaganda that Al-Shabaab is going to take over Somalia, going to take over Mogadishu. Al-Shabaab is going to become like a Taliban in Afghanistan.

6:01All this, I can say, is merely propaganda. Here we are in Mogadishu, where suicide bomb cars and suicide bomb was common a few years back. And now it happens. For example, in the month of August, there was no one single incident of death in Mogadishu. So it's a very good indicator, number one. Number two, I do disagree again. The saying that says the government has no strategy. We have. What's the strategy? Traditionally, al-Shabaab was fought with military only. When we come to the office three years back, we developed a strategy to fight al-Shabaab. Instead of having a military side war only, we have operated many other fronts.

6:42Ideological war, we call it meetings for all religious scholars all over the world. Somalis in diaspora inside the country. The major scholars of Somalia told the people that what al-Shabaab is doing is un-Islamic and has nothing to do. That's another new front that we opened. We established a television channel that advocates for the peaceful means. The other front, the second front, besides the military and the ideological, the third front was fighting financing al-Terror. We have closed so many accounts in the banks, in the mobile money, and we go after it. Still, we didn't reach 100 % where we wanted, but we disabled Al-Shabaab's financial movement.

7:27So these are the three-pronged strategy that the government has established three years ago. But Mr. President, in March, you yourself survived an assassination attempt by the same group, Al-Shabaab, and many said that it pointed to the strength that the group is gaining within the capital, Mugadishu itself. What did that attack mean to you? No, no, no, no. The attack was a really serious one. It was not an easy one. But Al-Shabaab has attempted me five times because they believe assassinating the president, creating confusion in the country. And I'm expecting more and more. Do you sometimes live with the fear that one day you could be killed by Al-Shabaab?

8:02Of course, I'm the president of this country and my life is very, very important for this country. But I'm in a war. It's not a rational logic not to expect that I will be free from any risk from the war. I take that risk and I have been standing in front where Al-Shabaab can sneak individually. So I will do everything that my security apparatus protects me, but I will not be in prison for the fear, being afraid of Al-Shabaab. In June, the Trump administration issued a travel ban on several countries, including Somalia, and they described your nation as a, quote, terrorist safe haven, where government lacks command and control of its territory.

8:45Is this a fair portrayal of your country? Well, after 35 years and the very fragile situation of my government, still, yes, I can say many parts of Somalia still are Shabaab controllers, but we are expanding every time. The circles of the authority of the state is expanding every other day and every other week. So it's still there, but we are going... So it's fair to say your country is a terrorist safe haven? No, no, no. I completely disagree. a safe haven of a terrorist is where the terrorist is not challenging. Did you express your disapproval to President Trump? I disapprove the term that Somalia is a terrorist's safe haven.

9:24I disagree and I disapprove that. So what have you done to address the concerns that the U.S. government raised? Well, the United States government has the right to decide its own policies. And the fact is and the reality is that policies are basic is for them. We don't know. We have not been consulted. Somalia is not the only place. So I believe that it relates to politics. It doesn't relate to either the relationship or the reality in the ground. Somalia now is a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council for the first time since 1972. What does that mean for you and how are you leveraging on this?

10:00That's a proof that Somalia is progressing. You know, we have been dealing with the rest of the world. We have lifted the arms embargo on Somalia after 32 years. we have been given the debt relief of almost$5 billion. And we have accepted in many organizations, the East African community, like the United Nations Security Council. Last time we were in the United Nations Security Council was 1972. And since then, Somalia has never been a member. Today, Somalia is a member. That itself is a proof that Somalia is defeating Al-Shabaab or Al-Shabaab in Somalia is not as they were years ago. Mr. President, let's talk about some regional dynamics now, because Somalia is preparing to welcome Egyptian troops in the coming days or months or weeks.

10:49You know better. I wonder why you think this is an appropriate time for them to come in when there is this rift between Ethiopia and Egypt over the grand Ethiopia Renaissance dam. Are you not creating a proxy theater for both countries? No, no, we do not. Ethiopia and Egypt are two independent states. They can have their own differences and they can have their own points of good relationship. But Somalia has a good relationship with both of them. Egypt is a member of the African Union and they have all the right to be part of the African Union mission. They are not here to fight or to proxy war with Ethiopia, no.

11:28Yes, we have a very, very old and ancient relationship with Egypt. Somalia is an independent state which deals its own foreign policy. We have a very, very good relationship with both countries, Egypt and Ethiopia. And this is based on our principle, which is, you know, when it comes to peace, we say our slogan is Somalia at peace with itself and Somalia at peace with the rest of the world. We keep continuing on like that. We are neutral. We don't want to have any conflict or any animosity with any other country in the world, unless that country wants it to have a problem with Somalia. We don't have.

12:04Mr. President, you say that the Egyptian forces are not coming to cause trouble with Ethiopia, but there are also reports that suggest that these Egyptian troops will be stationed along the border with Ethiopia, especially in areas where Ethiopian forces are already present, notably in Gedo and Iran regions. Isn't this a direct provocation towards Ethiopia? That's not true. This is one of the false information that has been taken out of Somalia by those who are interested to keep Somalia at the current state school. So what's the truth? Egypt is just manning the sector that our brothers from Burundi was manning, which is an area that is 100 kilometers from Mogadishu.

12:42There is no Egyptian forces that is going to anywhere closer to the Ethiopian border. They do not have that intention. And their African Union sectorization of Somalia and the peacekeeping forces, that's where they are. The Ethiopians are very far from Mogadishu as well. You are the president of this country. Do you guarantee that there will be no conflict between Ethiopian and Egyptian troops in the months to come? I don't see any reason why that question comes. The peacekeeping forces of Ethiopia and the peacekeeping forces of India has no any proximity whatsoever. If they want to fight, they can fight by themselves.

13:17But in Somalia's locations, there is no any even proximity of the two troops at all. There are hundreds of kilometers apart they are. and I didn't see any intention of Egypt to disrupt Ethiopia and I didn't see any intention of Ethiopia to fight or disrupt the peacekeeping forces of Egypt in Somalia. There is no proxy war and we are not, we will never allow proxy wars to have been placed here in Somalia. We are fed up of war. We don't need any new war. We have our own problem. We have our own wars. We don't want others to come to this country and fight on us. No, that will not happen. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world.

14:04If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

14:50And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:15For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Hassan Sheikh Mohammed, the president of Somalia. We met in his presidential palace in the capital Mogadishu. Known here as Villa Somalia, the new stylish building cost six million dollars and the president's team exploited every opportunity to show us its splendor and make sure we knew its worth. The president himself was cordial and calm just as he appears in public. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Hassan Sheikh Mohammed. How would you describe relations between Somalia and Ethiopia after the rift over Addis Ababa's controversial port deal with Somaliland last year?

15:54It was a very unfortunate incident that's happened, but Somalia and Ethiopia has had a very good relationship for love. Yes, we have a difficult history of the past, but that page has turned it on and this comes. Now, after the agreement of Somalia and Ethiopia in Ankara, Turkey, we have further improved it. We have exchanged visits, privacy of Ethiopia visited here. I visited Addis Ababa. And then we have a number of meetings and Ethiopia is collaborating with us. We Somalis and Ethiopia, our neighbor Ethiopia, we are neighbors. We are not neighbors by choice. We didn't choose them. They didn't choose us.

16:33The only way out we have is to work together on the mutual interests that were particularly the security issue. We have almost close to 2 ,000 kilometers of borderline with Ethiopia. And you know that border is porous. If we don't have purpose of unity against the terrorists, it will be both challenged to Ethiopia and to us. So we have a mutual interest on fight against the terrorists and we are working together. And as part of the Turkey mediation, which you just referenced a little earlier, you both agreed to finalize mutually beneficial commercial deals, which included giving Ethiopia access to the sea.

17:08Where are you on that deal right now? In principle, we have never refused access to the sea by Ethiopia. We never. The only question that we have been, some differences in the past was how, how Ethiopia is going to access to the sea. And I think there are discussions are going on, not yet finalized, but Somalia principally have no problem at all Ethiopia to commercially have a full access to the long coast of Somalia. So you want Ethiopia to have access to the port in Somalia, But the question is, would you allow Ethiopia to create its own port, which was initially, as was reported, part of the deal it had with Somaliland?

17:46You know, if people sit together and have a real, real genuine discussion on all, everything is possible if we agree and see it mutual interest. But now what we are discussing is a commercial access to the ports of Somalia. and Ethiopia is a very big country, a very populated country, but it's one of the landlocked countries all over Africa and there are almost 16, 17 African countries where all of them are landlocked, but all of them have access to the sea. Access to the sea has come to an agreement, terms, conditions, financial setups. These are what we are going to discuss and agree, but we never have rejected Ethiopia to have access to the sea commercially.

18:32I did mention Somaliland a little earlier and U.S. Senator Ted Cruz has urged President Donald Trump to formally recognize it as an independent state. What's your take on that? I don't think that that was an ideal statement. And that is a violation to the African Union Charter and the United Nations Charter. And the African Union in 1963 has recognized that colonial borders are the genuine African borders. So Somalia today respects that. And Somaliland is part of Somalia. Yes, they have grievances. Yes, they have different way of governing the whole Somalia and their part as well. But Somalia is a federal country today.

19:15Chances have been given to all people in different regions to have a say on the way they are governed, on the way they are ruled. Somalia has the same right, but within the framework of unity. and I as a president of Somalia publicly make an apologetic statement, apologize for what has happened in the name of Somali state in the past to all Somali people and exceptional to Somaliland people. But that does not mean we have so many commonalities, so many issues that bond us together than dividing us. So Somaliland is our dear brothers and sisters. We respect them. We respect their views. but the unity of Somalia is a sacrosanct.

19:57The unity of Somalia is sacrosanct. You seem to position that as a core message. But what concessions are you ready to make to see that unity come to fruition? We are here to do whatever that makes the Somalian people and leaders feel that they are part of Somalia. Anything other, no, anything other than secession, we will not accept that. But you're coming to the table with preconceived ideas already. How do you solve that problem? Unity of the country. This is the mandate I have from my constitution. We have Act of Union in 1960s. This is one unified country. And it has been like that for 65 years.

20:36Yes, there are grievances, concerns, which we are ready to address. If, President Donald Trump adheres to the advice of Senator Ted Cruz and goes ahead to formally decide that Somaliland is now an independent state, to formally recognize it, what do you do? We will never accept that recognition, and the whole world will not accept it. The African Union will not accept it. The Arab League, the United Nations will not accept it. That will not happen. Will you save our diplomatic relations with the US? No, no, we have a very good relationship. Politicians can express their views. But if it comes as a formal recognition from the United States, it will be the first country to ever recognize it.

21:12I'm not expecting it, and I believe that it will not come. This is a world that deals with regulations and rules of international law. America is not a violator of international law. All right, Mr. President, let's talk something else now. How would you describe the human cost of U.S. AIID funding cuts in Somalia? There is an impact on the way of it in all aspects. The U.S. aid was supporting Somalia in the name of the United States government, and cutting that aid has some impact in social service, in security, in many other places. But I think that is temporary. We are talking with the United States government.

21:51to make some review on what has happened. Not necessarily that the U.S. aid will come back, but as a part of the American government, we believe that they will review that support and they will somehow make adjustments. Your economy is said to be highly dependent on aid. So how is it surviving now, given these aid cuts and the security challenges that prevail? As I said, the humanitarian aspect, it will affect us because there was a huge funding, not only from USA but from many parts of the world. And Somali government is doing its part as well to address those challenges. Since I came to the office in 2022, we established institutions directly addressing those challenges, establishing the first time in the history of Somalia the Ministry of Environment, the Somali Disaster Management Agency, and many others.

22:43So the Somali government is trying its best to address those humanitarian aid challenges. In late 2023, Somalia achieved debt relief and people argue that the proceeds of that or economic recovery is not being felt by the wider population in Somalia. What accounts for that? Today, there are a lot of development projects going on. Schools are expanding. There is almost a thousand classes that has been opened throughout Somalia. There are 10 ,000 teachers that has been recruited. there has been electrification of schools and hospitals in remote areas of Somalia. All these development projects would have never come and materialized without the death relief.

23:26Your term expires sometime mid-next year, and you're currently preparing the country for elections. How are those plans going, and do you commit to peacefully hand over power if you're defeated in the elections? Well, I was president for four and a half years here in Mogadishu. I organized the election and I was defeated and I immediately accepted that, left the office peacefully. Now I'm organizing again one person, one vote for Somalia after 57 years. And if that succeeds and the Somali people elected someone else, I don't have any problem to hand over peacefully and leave the office. That's the challenge, the one man, one vote, because people say that the security situation in the country remains dire and it's not feasible to have people come out to vote.

24:11Will you take responsibility for any possible violence that comes up during the election? I took full responsibility, of course. The Somali state apparatus took full responsibility and I'm their president. I'm not going to risk the lives of the Somalis. We have enough security forces to protect the locations where the elections are taking place. Not everybody is in favour of your decision to amend the interim constitution. The opposition leaders are saying that you want to stay in power. No, no, no. That was what they were saying in 2016. But why introduce changes to a system that brought you into power?

24:46No, no, no, no. That's a wrong system. We cannot remain the current status quo. It's not maintainable. Somalia has to move further towards democracy.

25:00Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with President Lula da Silva of Brazil, tennis great Martina Navratilova, and political economist Francis Fukuyama. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.