Hind Kabawat, Syrian Minister: It's hard to be the only woman, I feel lonely

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts From the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games To the European Athletics Championships The 2026 sporting calendar is packed full of big events Keep up with all the action with More Than The Score The podcast that goes beyond the score sheet Join expert BBC sports journalists every Monday to Friday For interviews with sports stars, big talking points and the stories behind the headlines.

1:07More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:30coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, but having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Hind Kabawat, the Minister for Social Affairs and Labour in Syria's first interim cabinet, a government dominated by the close aides and former fighters linked to Syria's new president, Ahmed al-Shara. Born in India and raised between the Middle East and Europe, Hind Kaboat's life has been shaped by Syria's strife.

2:18She studied economics in Damascus, law in Beirut, before continuing her education in Canada and the United States. During the long years of Syria's brutal war, Hind played a leading role in Syria's exiled opposition. She established her own organization, helping Syrian women develop skills in leadership and peace-building. After the sudden fall of the Assad regime in December 2024, ending decades of dictatorship, she returned home to play a part in building the new Syria. Hind speaks to me about the challenges of moving a nation from war to peace, about building trust, and what it's like being the only woman at the top table.

3:05The president is treating us all equal. I've never seen any discrimination between me and others. So whatever your background is, extreme radicals or extreme seculars, I always think about how we share values together. We want to build a state. We have to help the people of Syria. This is what I think. I don't want to think about anything else. So whoever you are, wherever you come from, wherever our ideology is so different, I don't care.

3:39Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Hind Kabawat. I have two ministries. First one is the social affairs, which is responsible for all the civil society in Syria. responsible for the old laws. We're responsible for the vulnerable community, which will include refugees, IDPs, street children, widows. We have also the elderly people. It's a very big portfolio when it comes to social affairs and special needs. There are 27 percent of special needs and the victims of war, and my ministry is responsible for them. This is the first one. The second is about jobs. Now we plan our strategy and we identify priorities for us and we're working on those priorities.

4:32When you were offered the job, did you hesitate for a second, knowing how hard it would be? I didn't think about how hard. I thought then how much I can give to my community in my country. Took me a few minutes to accept. And has it been harder than you thought? Every day it's harder. It is difficult because you're responsible for 90 % of the Syrian people because we have now almost poverty in Syria. People are living under 90 % of the poverty level. This is very difficult and make it more difficult post-conflict, after conflict of 14 years. And then plus it's transitions. It's very hard. And don't forget the former regime left Syria below zero.

5:23It's like a death clinic. Nothing left. Institution is being destroyed, stolen. I don't have even laptops in my ministry. My elevator wasn't working. There is no light, nothing. And to-do list every day, it's increasing, not decreasing. Why is it getting harder? Because don't forget, we can't do anything without funding. And before, when I took the position, sanction was still there. So I was like thinking, oh, my God, what will happen if we don't lift the sanction? So it's been one of our priority, my government priority to lift the sanction with the help of the Syrian-American communities and other communities.

6:07It's been the challenge for us. And now after lifting the sanction, I think it's going to get better. It was harder because people, they want to see result. It has been hard to tell them we don't have this magic stick. We have to rebuild from the beginning. It's not only you have to rebuild, but also people are hurt. It's been painful for them. They've been living 14 years under a dictator regime. they cannot even talk. And the other, they've been living under the tent, refugee camps, IDP camps, and also attacks and killing every day. So it's not only building the offices, it's also you have to work on the people too.

6:53Do you fear that people's patience will run out? Of course. You put yourself into their shoes. They waited for this revolution to win for years, 14 years, and they felt like the day we have the victory, they can go back home. They're all coming back, and their old villages are like Maaret al-Naman. If you see Maaret al-Naman, it's like Hiroshima. This is a city who's destroyed completely. How come this person will go back to his home if his village is completely destroyed? He really needs a house. This, building this, they cost billions of billions of dollars. And we don't have the money. And if we don't have united effort from the international community to help at least building some houses for those people, because this is hard for them.

7:45I feel their pain. They're sitting in a tent for a year waiting for them to have a solution. And we don't have the money to build. It will cost billions and we don't have it. What is the biggest obstacle to you succeeding in your ministry? Funding. The funding for social affairs and labor, it's very essential because it is also touching people's life. Like when women tell me I lost my three children, I don't have a house, I don't have a job. What can I tell her? All what I can tell her, let's try to give you some skills, some vocation training so you can start working. And this is what we're trying to do.

8:26This seems to be your message wherever you go. You tell them you can't depend on the government or internationally. You have to do it yourself. And they look at you and they say, we have nothing. How can we depend on ourselves? So at least vocation training. You know what? Maybe we lost a lot, but we didn't lose the power of the Syrian people, their dignity, and they love to work. We don't have the government billion dollars to give them, but we can give them tools. The vocation training is shortcut. At least they can start having income. Also, we have another plan to give cash, cash for the most vulnerable Syrian people.

9:05And we identify like five millions who are women without husband. They have children, they have special needs. We identify them. If we give them a little bit cash, at least they can survive until we do for them the vocation training and they can start work. So once we do this, I think we will be much better because we cannot rely on bringing lots of billions to build homes, but we can at least teach them how to start building and step by step. When you meet members of the international community, when you travel abroad and you say this, what do they tell you? We cannot ignore how grateful we are for the international community.

9:47They've been helping us for the last 14 years Today, we have a good documentation for the Assad crime because of their support to our civil society organization. So we have documentation. So we don't have to wait for transitional justice to happen after five, six years from now until we document all the crimes. The international community, they've been helping us in humanitarian aid in the north. They've been great support. Do you warn them that time is running out? Reality is, if we don't get the economic in place, business in place, jobs for the people, better future, we have problems. We can have more social problems.

10:27Many young people can leave us now. They can just start work, leaving the country. We get now 1 ,700 ,000 refugees coming back to Syria. But if we don't allow these people to start working and being creative and making great ideas to survive and let other communities, we will be in trouble. We don't want them to leave because we need them. But what members of the international community say is the government is too slow, that you're not moving quickly enough on establishing a new legal framework, on transparency, and until the Syrians act, we're not going to give you money. Are they right? Of course, they're not right.

11:08Not right? Because we are trying our best. Listen, it's only one year now. We get a country that's been completely destroyed. It's not like we just transitioned to a country like Switzerland. We have already a system in place. We have corruption. We don't have the proper law. Our law is very old. We just now, we're getting the parliament, And we're just now working on all the laws to renew and to adapt to the new country. So it's taking time. We have people who are being hurt. We have to work on. When we have a little bit of progress, we can see some of the spoilers starting. Attention problems, sectarian problems.

11:52So we have political challenges. We have people who are the psychological problems. There is mistrust. Don't forget, we have the mistrust. Before, nobody trusts the government. It's taking time for people to say, we trust you. And it's not trust between government and people. It's also between people to people. There is no trust. They've been 14 years divided. So they need time. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

12:27If journalism is the first draft of history, What happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

13:28headlines. More than the score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for more than the score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:43Syria's Minister for Social Affairs and Labour, Hind Kabawat, has an impossible juggling act. She has to help the most vulnerable. Orphans, widows, the unemployed, the homeless. As she says, that's 90 % of Syrians. Travelling with her, we saw how everywhere she goes, she brings her trademark humour, trying to ease any tension, build trust, even hope. But she knows what Syrians really need now is a place to call home, a country at peace. But let's return to my conversation with Hind Kabawat. How hard is it for you as the only woman in the government? The government is composed of many of the former fighters, predominantly from President al-Shara's group, Hayat al-Rusham.

14:36How hard is it for you to work in that world? First of all, it's hard to be the only woman, because for me I feel lonely sometimes, because you like to have another woman colleague to talk. And I can see when I go to Qatar, I see three ministers, like sisters, working together. I envy them. In reality, I envy them because they're great, three sisters. I feel lonely. And effective too? Does it mean you are less effective at your work? Actually, no, because I got many male colleagues help me and support me. They always feel like we're partners and we're partners at work. So no, I don't feel lonely at work with my other colleagues.

15:15But are they also colleagues who, some of them have come from very, very conservative backgrounds, who don't talk about, don't believe in women's empowerment, in fact may believe the opposite? Does that restrict you? Don't restrict me because for me, I don't work for them. But you're part of the same government. We're equal. You're fighting for resources. Fighting for resources, but my resources are so different than their resources. My resources are for the people, and I fight for the people of my ministry, the vulnerable people. And the president is treating us all equal. I never seen any discrimination between me and others.

15:53So whatever your background is, extreme radicals or extreme seculars, I always think about how we share values together. We want to build a state. We have to help the people of Syria. This is what I think. I don't want to think about anything else. I want just to focus on these things. So whoever you are, wherever you come from, and wherever our ideology is so different, I don't care. But you have to care if it means that they're just, okay, we'll put one woman there, we'll keep the international community happy, and we'll get on with our main jobs. No, it doesn't work with me. Taking the main jobs.

16:30It doesn't work with me. But they do dominate the main ministries. And in fact, the deputy ministers are from that. My deputy are not from the part and we are independent. And I can tell you that I have full authorities in my ministry. It's some other, I don't. You know what? It is not one size fits all. I have the full authority. If I don't have full authority to make my own decision, you don't see me here. and if you come next year, you won't see me because this was one of my conditions. When I took the decision, I said I need to have full authority. I can appoint my own deputy and I have the freedom to do my own strategy, my own plan, my own budget.

17:17I'm not a window dressing. Hello, I'm not a window dressing. Nobody can dominate a woman and nobody can dominate me. And if I see any domination, anybody can force me or ignore my work or anything. Very simple. Very simple. I have thick skin. And I learned to be thick skin in my previous job, in my previous responsibilities. I can be thick skin, but when it comes to taking some of my authorities, I don't have to be in a place. I cannot be the boss. As simple as this. Tell us about your relationship with the president, because it goes back many, many years. When he was a commander in Idlib, you were a leading person in the opposition and working in the aid community.

18:07Tell us about your relationship. I don't know him personally. I never met him personally. The first time I met him personally in the National Dialogue, when they appointed me to be part of the National Dialogue, I work in Idlib in very specific things, education and women empowerment. Then I work also with the churches in Idlib, with the priests and others, so also we can do some of the program together. I know that in the last few years he changed. He was really having a great conversation with the priest in Idlib, which was a very good sign. This is the only thing I know about him. And your working relationship with him now as one of his ministers, how would you describe it?

18:49Respect, treat me like an older sister since I'm older. And I remember one day he told me, somebody asked me, did I appointed him because she's Christian? I told him, no, I appointed her because she had the skills and leadership knowledge. He listened to me and we have always an open conversation based on respect and always very impressed by his relation with his wife. And he's encouraged her for education, to be more seen in international platform. And he's a very good support for his wife, for all of us. You're very public about saying that there has to be more women in the government. When you put that to the president, what does he say?

19:38He say, of course, yeah. For me, I appointed now the director in Idlib, and we have more coming. Any seats empty, I will put women, and they are okay. You know what? I don't want to look at other ministries. I lead by example. One of my priorities in my strategy is empowering women. But you have said that not including more women at that cabinet level was one of the biggest mistakes of the first year in power. Yeah. Do you say that to the president? I say, of course. The first day we were there, I told him why there is no more women. What does he say? He said, it's coming. We will. We are transitioning.

20:20They might change us after one year. Now, because we're there temporary. So I hope that next year when they change, they will bring five, six women. Because they are very qualified. Not because of women. But do you understand that in this post-war politics, the president also needs to honour the loyalties of those who fought with him, helped to bring down Assad. So he has to give all of those men positions. Does part of you accept that that's the way it has to be? No, I don't accept this because they are not the only one that helped him. Because of the women and civil societies helped him too.

20:58We cannot say that only the military helped to free Syria. But they want jobs. And I mean, that's what we're seeing, is that in his first appointments, he had to give jobs even to foreign fighters to reward them. That's what people say. That's the realpolitik. OK, but it's fine. Finish now. Now let's have technocrats. Let's have more people who are more working in Syria. Now we have to... And you say that to him. I always say we have to include everybody. If he's not going to be inclusive and bring many people together in the government to be more effective, we can't survive. In Syria, it's a mosaic country.

21:39You cannot have one colour and one side. You have to bring everybody at the table. Some women expressed concern to us about growing Islamisation, more women putting on the headscarves. in the Umayyad mosque. There's now a barrier between the women and the men for the first time in history. Do you worry that little by little this is happening? It's not happening. It's not happening. It's not going to happen because the Syrian people, they won't allow this because we want to have a freedom of religion, freedom of express our religion. I can tell you, many of my friends, they have, even some of them, they have niqab.

22:22but doesn't mean that they don't have open heart and brain and everything. Even the Christians, in the time of poverty and everything, people, they get back to their tribes and feel lonely, and they start feeling like we and them. But today, if we open for economic and more education, especially children education, tell them that citizenship are more important, go practice your religion. It's good to have your Muslim or Christian identity, but don't forget your biggest identity is Syria. So those who fear that the government is not moving in the right direction say that Hind Kabawat being in this government gives it legitimacy.

23:07You don't feel that Hind Kabawat is the token woman, token minority in the government? No, I don't. And I don't accept this at all, at all. Because, you know, I don't feel myself a Christian or a woman when I do myself. I feel like I'm a citizen of Syria. I have a duty to help and serve. The minute I start feeling like I am a minority or I'm a woman, I will lose my legitimacy here. So legitimacy is that you are a person, you are a citizen. your work is to help and serve. Talking or anything else, I don't agree with this, no. I never feel like this. Is there one lesson that you've learned in your first year as a minister?

24:00So many lessons I learned. This is the first time I work with the government because I come from the private sector and the civil society. The work I do there, it's completely different. Here there is a bureaucracy, there is lots of layers and lots of papers. So I learned that I have to adjust because I'm like a, I'm an ADD, you know, I'm fast, fast, fast. And it is slow. So I have to slow and teach others to speed. So first lesson is to adjust my speed with the bureaucracy of the ministry. And second, you have to listen to everybody because you feel like it's like a puzzle. Everyone is right in their own and you put yourself into their shoes.

24:50It's the everyday challenge how to put the two cultures together, private sector, civil society, with the government bureaucracy. So this is the first lesson I learned. And finally, is there one moment in this last year where it was one of the toughest moments that you came home, you thought, I just can't do it, brought you to tears? I have tears. Sometimes tears doesn't mean that you're weak. Tears show that you're a human. I see the suffering of the people post-conflict. I see the suffering of the women who lost their children. and I feel responsible for their pain. Sometimes I say, why did I do this?

25:35But in the end I say, if I don't serve them now, I will have more tears later. So you cry a little bit. I wake up in the morning, I say, another day, go back. So tears at home, feeling that sometimes I don't have the resource to help everybody. That's the only time I feel like, why did I do this? Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, Noura Erekat, the Palestinian-American human rights lawyer, and Mexican actor Diego Calva. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

26:54Chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. From the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games to the European Athletics Championships. The 2026 sporting calendar is packed full of big events. Keep up with all the action with More Than The Score, the podcast that goes beyond the score sheet. Join expert BBC sports journalists every Monday to Friday for interviews with sports stars, big talking points and the stories behind the headlines.

27:39More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.