Jacob Zuma’s daughters: Polygamy is a subject we lived

0:00Anne Soy:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

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1:00Thuli Zuma:shaping our world from all over the world.

1:04Gugu Zuma-Ncube:I want to get freedom. I like that freedom.

1:07Thuli Zuma:A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Gugu Zuman Nube and Tuli Zuma, executive producers of The Polygamist, one of Netflix's most talked about new dramas from South Africa, which takes on the topic of polygamy, the practice of having more than one spouse at the same time. The 22-episode Zulu language series is based on the 2012 novel by Zimbabwean author Su Nyati, and is about the tangled love life of wealthy Johannesburg businessman, Jonasi Gomorra.

1:52Joe?

1:53Gugu Zuma-Ncube:Jonasi.

1:54Thuli Zuma:Joe? Jonasi. It begins at the fictional tycoon's funeral where we learn that his widow Joyce, a social media influencer, is not his only partner. In fact, he has two other wives and a mistress who are all dressed in black. As well as being executive producers on the drama, Gugu Zumanube and Tuli Zuma are daughters of Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president and a proud polygamist who is greatly respected by his supporters for upholding his cultural and traditional Zulu beliefs. The 84-year-old currently has four wives, has been married six times, and is estimated to have 20 children. Gugu Zwangube and Tuli Zuma's parents divorced in 1998 after 16 years of marriage, and another of their half-siblings is also credited as a writer on the series.

2:46Thuli Zuma:The success of the show has been huge. In the first week, it attracted 2 million views and was number four on Netflix's top 10 list for non-English series globally. You're going to hear about how the sisters' upbringing influenced their approach to working on the series.

3:04Gugu Zuma-Ncube:I'm a product of polygamous unions. And so it's a subject that I know, I've lived, I've seen up close. And everybody came into the writing room and we brought ourselves, we brought our experiences, we brought everything we could into it. And that includes how I grew up. That includes watching my father. That includes the relationships that I saw him have.

3:29Thuli Zuma:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Gugu Zuman Ngube and Tuli Zuma.

3:36Gugu Zuma-Ncube:We knew that the show that we had created was really something special. We definitely had the sense that South Africans would engage and would love it. But even the response in this country, this response across Africa and globally, has been such a surprise, such a pleasant surprise. We've been ecstatic every day. We're hearing more reviews. We're getting numbers. It's been incredible.

4:00Thuli Zuma:Tuli?

4:00Anne Soy:100 % the same. So we were always counting on our local audience who have rode with us over so many shows and always show up to support. And then absolutely blown away by how the rest of the world have received this and have like really been engaging with it. I mean, listen, some people that I've followed online for years, who I'm huge fans of, are reviewing the show. So I've lost all humility. I'm not looking people. People aren't allowed to look me in the eye. I'm, you know, I'm bathing in French champagne at this point.

4:39Thuli Zuma:I mean, I'll just read you some of the comments. The Nigerian Afrobeat star Davido says that your Jonassi is wild. And Taraji Hansen, the Hollywood star, also said that this show had her on a chokehold and she binged on it in one day. And I must confess that I also just couldn't stop watching. Like I kept waiting for the next scene and the next scene. How was it for you working behind the scenes, creating it from scratch? Let's start with you, Gugu.

5:11Gugu Zuma-Ncube:It was amazing. I mean, it's been a labor of love. It's been almost three years, actually, through the dates of release of us working from development, creating the scripts. We had an incredible writing room led by Busi Zwane, first time head writer. She was incredible, put together an incredible team. And it was just, I mean, from there, we'd all read the book, loved the book, were excited to bring this book to screen and just came in with it, brought our own experiences, brought, you know, everything that we had to offer as well to the story. And I think the scripts were incredible. Putting together the team for production was a feat.

5:52Gugu Zuma-Ncube:And we were lucky enough to get the sort of people that we've always wanted to work with in some cases and always have worked with in other cases. So people that understand our vision. The team is incredible. From post-production, we had a group of four female offline editors who were just absolute rock stars. The composer, Zetu. It's just like an incredible celebration of African talent. And from the beginning right through to the end, everybody understood the assignment. Everybody loved and respected the type of work and the type of shows that we create. And I think everybody just brought some magic.

6:27Gugu Zuma-Ncube:You know, we can't forget the cast who elevated it, brought their gifts and their special little, you know, spice and nuances to the characters and really just let them live.

6:51Gugu Zuma-Ncube:It's been an incredible journey. And I think we've been doing this for a while. And to finally have a partner like Netflix that is very supportive, loves African stories, stands behind us and how we tell them. And then to get this kind of reaction to the world in, you know, putting ourselves and our worlds and our stories out there. It's been absolutely incredible.

7:13Thuli Zuma:And you've said that a lot of the scenes that you see in the show are taken directly out of your lives. I'll come back to that, Gugu. Tuli, what is it that connected with you when you read Sue's book? When I was reading the book, I'll speak for myself and I'll speak for the writing team,

7:31Anne Soy:because when we came in, the first thing we did, obviously everyone had read the book and we spoke for some time at length about what it is we loved about the book and what it is excited us about being able to adapt the book. And as kind of sensational and scandalous as some of the things that Jonasse does are, all of us could relate. It felt grounded in a world that we not only knew, but that we lived in. It felt like all of us, everyone in the writing room, we were a core group of seven Black women. And all of us were like, yeah, jeepers. And when I read this, I was so scandalized. And it reminded me of this, you know, and my father, this and my uncle, this.

8:18Anne Soy:And I remember when my brother and I remember when my baby daddy and this one time. And so I think that really is it, is even though it feels like it is so out of this world, it is in many ways so a part of the world, our world and our lives and our lived experience. experience and of course I think Sue penned it in a way that was so beautiful and so riveting that some of us even you know in the room were like oh you know it's not until I was reading the book or not until we were discussing the material that you realize oh hey wait this is kind of like what happened with my grandfather and oh yeah hey I did have a cousin who we thought was just our cousin, but then it turned out they were actually the sibling of my other cousin.

9:11Anne Soy:And so yeah, it just felt deeply, deeply relatable.

9:14Thuli Zuma:There have been criticisms on the storyline and the depiction of the characters. To just give you some of them, you know, from critics and reviewers, they point out that the central character isn't truly practicing recognized cultural or traditional polygamy. The Mail and Guardian in South Africa says that, you know, the show consistently chooses sensation over subtlety. Was this the message though? Was this what you set out to depict that change in, you know, from the traditional polygamy as it was understood in, you know, traditional African society to how it is being practiced now, Tuli?

9:57Anne Soy:You know, this is funny. A friend of mine after watching the show just recently, two days ago, messaged me and said, Jonassi is not a polygamist. He is a perpetual cheat. And I said, you know, you can be both. Yes, polygamy exists traditionally the way it ought to be practiced. And like any system, like any institution, there are those who practice it as it's intended and as it should. And there are those who don't. Monogamy, you know, if this was a story about a monogamist who was also a cheater. I don't believe people would be saying, well, this is not traditional monogamy. You can't call it this.

10:39Anne Soy:Jonassi is a cheater. And the story ours is not to say this is what polygamy ought to be. Ours is to reflect a part of our reality. It's not a condemnation of polygamy. It's not a affirmation of polygamy. It's to say, here is this one man and the way that he did things. And from the response that we've received, I think what is evident is that Jornasi is not an isolated incident. Jornasi walks amongst us. There are many Jornasis in the world who are not operating with full transparency. I think if someone took this as us saying this is what polygamy is and engaged with the show just on that basis, there would be a lot that they would be missing out on and missing out on a great opportunity to really look at what's happening in the world and engage with a lot of what people are going through.

11:43Thuli Zuma:And Gugu, you have said that you famously came from a very polygamous family. And I wonder how much Sue's story resonated with your own life.

11:55Gugu Zuma-Ncube:I don't know that the story resonated with my life exactly, but the subject of polygamy, I think, is something that I'm very much. Yeah, I mean, I grew up, I'm a product of polygamous unions. And so it's a subject that I know I've lived, I've seen up close. And so, as we said, like everybody came into the writing room and we brought ourselves, we brought our experiences, we brought everything we could into it. And that includes how I grew up. That includes watching my father. That includes the relationships that I saw him have. So I think, yeah, I mean, you bring, you write what you know, as they say in our industry.

12:34Gugu Zuma-Ncube:And so we did bring ourselves into it. The Jornasi as a particular character, whether I saw similarities there, I think that's a bit more tricky. I didn't really like he's quite an over the top kind of crazy character. But yeah, I mean, it definitely formed part of the creative process.

12:53Thuli Zuma:And he really is. There's just so much scandal. And, you know, one of the criticisms has also been that it's a weak take on patriarchy and its enablers and women are reduced to basically reacting to, you know, the next scandal of the main character. What do you say to that, Gugu?

13:13Gugu Zuma-Ncube:Look, the critics must criticize. That's their job. So I'm just like, keep talking and then call me when you've done something that we can also criticize. But, you know, everybody has their opinion. I think the problem with a single story, and I think from Africa, we suffer the sort of issue of having single stories on topics, is that I can't satisfy everyone. We can't tell every single story and give every type of perspective in this one show. So we chose a perspective. It was based on a novel that we loved and we kept true to that story and true to the story that we wanted to tell. I think it's resonated with a lot of people.

13:51Gugu Zuma-Ncube:I think it's hit home and struck chords with a lot of people. But I can never try, you know, certain criticism you listen to and you're like, you know what, that's that's fair. And that I'm going to take on and, you know, apply to the next project. But a criticism that wants me to take that point of view or that point of view or that point of view is a tricky one for me. I can't take everybody's point of view. And we took a particular one. We stayed true to it. And we are very proud of the product that we made at the end of the day. I think it's not perfect. Nothing is. And let the critics criticize.

14:24Gugu Zuma-Ncube:Everybody needs to earn their salary.

14:29Thuli Zuma:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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15:25Thuli Zuma:I binge-watched The Polygamist on Netflix shortly before interviewing the executive producers, sisters Gugu Zuman Nube and Tuli Zuma virtually. From the opening episode, I couldn't help gasping or shouting in shock at the storyline or plot twist. It's intense, replete with scandal right from the first scene, but also surprisingly relatable upon reflection, especially in modern urban Africa, a society in transition perhaps torn between pre-colonial culture and the realities of modernity and globalization. The Zuma sisters also have a famous father, Jacob Zuma, who married his fifth and sixth wives while president and in the presence of his other spouses.

16:10Thuli Zuma:I remember watching him dancing with Gusto wearing the traditional Zulu leopard skin outfit during one of the ceremonies. It's the context that makes the much-talked-about gripping show feel like a mirror in today's sub-Saharan Africa. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Gugu Zuman Ngobe and Tuli Zuma. The intensity of it, you know, just when you're getting to know the characters, they hit you with something and then there's a plot twist and, you know, there's just a huge amount of shock in almost every episode. Was that intentional, Tuli?

16:49Anne Soy:It was. So at the end of the day, we're telling a story and it is existing on a streaming platform in which we want to take the audience on a ride and we want them to stay with us. And so I think, of course, when you look at the 22 episodes back to back, it is kind of very explosive and very shocking. And I think if you played those 22 episodes over 20 years, what you have is someone's life that is so normalized in our society that you don't even realize how wild it is. And I think that's part of some of the conversations I've been having and the feedback I've gotten is, you know, you watch it and you go, whoa, that is too much.

17:40Anne Soy:You guys, you guys did too much. You did too much. But then the more people sit with it, they go like, oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I do remember when I was eight, this one thing happened between my parents. Sure. And then when I was 17, I remember finding out that my my two cousins were actually siblings. And I remember. So, of course, it's a TV show. It's a story told for a particular format. It has to keep you engaged. It's not a documentary. It's a telenovela. And so, yes, that was intentional for the format. And if you pull it out, and if these weren't 22 episodes, but they were 22 years, I think what you'd find and the conversation that has been happening is, yeah, this is life.