John Healey, UK Defence Secretary: Russia’s covert operations

0:00Adam Fleming:Hello, I'm BBC presenter Adam Fleming and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American. Having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I speak to the UK Defence Secretary John Healy about the threat posed by Russia after he revealed that Russian submarines have been carrying out covert operations over the UK's deep sea cables and pipelines, infrastructure that is critical to energy supplies and the vast majority of the UK's internet traffic.

0:53Adam Fleming:He says the activity could form part of a wider Russian strategy to map these systems in peacetime and potentially sabotage or destroy them in times of conflict. While global attention is focused on the Middle East, he says Britain cannot afford to be distracted from what he calls its primary threat and that NATO must stay alert to Russian activity.

1:16John Healey:Despite all eyes on the Middle East, understandably, and this noisy, dangerous conflict that we've got out there, there are other threats that our nation faces and that our forces are alert to those, tracking those and dealing with those 24-7. And it's also a way of reminding people that we're rightly concerned about the Middle East. We want to see a ceasefire there. We want to see the stability returned and the lifeblood of shipping restored through the Strait of Hormuz. but the primary threat to the UK remains rising Russian aggression. That's a threat to us, it's a threat to our NATO allies and it's why NATO is developing its deterrence, its defence and it's now bigger, stronger and better funded than it was before Putin invaded Ukraine.

2:11Adam Fleming:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with John Healy. Now, I remember last time you were on, you were talking to me about a Russian ship called the Yantar that had been in British territorial waters. And here we are again.

2:27John Healey:This is part of the same secret operation that President Putin wants to operate covertly in and around our waters and those of our allies. It's part of what they call a Googie team. It's a deep ocean research capability and it's designed to be able to survey pipelines and cables in peacetime but then sabotage them in conflict.

2:57Adam Fleming:And we should be clear these are cables that carry information around the world that the UK sends out there. This is our gas pipelines from other countries. These are the networks on which our way of life depends.

3:08John Healey:You know, half of our gas comes through pipelines under the sea. Trillions of pounds each day is part of the trade. 99 % of our telecoms and our data comes through cables under the sea connected to the UK. So if an adversary like Putin holds those at risk, then they threaten the way that we live. They threaten the lifeblood of our economy as well as our security. And so what I've done is to set out a very substantial UK armed forces operation alongside Norway and other allies over more than a month, which has demonstrated that we're alert to Putin's threat. Despite the Middle East commanding a lot of people's attention, we haven't taken our eye off the primary threat to the UK, which is Russian aggression and rising.

4:00John Healey:Last time it was the spy ship on the surface. This time it was a combination of three submarines. And we tracked them 24-7 for over a month with allies to make sure that we are able to say to Putin, We see what you're doing. We're watching you. And it means also that if there is ever any damage to our cables or our pipelines, we know we can hold Putin to account. We know he can't deny it. And it also demonstrates to people, I think, that despite full focus on the Middle East, you know, armed forces 24-7 are also doing the job of protecting our homeland and dealing with the threats that Putin poses to the wider NATO flank.

4:42Adam Fleming:There was one submarine sent near Britain, and that was sort of a decoy that was meant to distract you while these other two submarines looked at our cables to kind of scope them out. Is that right?

4:53John Healey:Well, I think first, you know, Putin would have wanted us to be distracted by the Middle East. And whilst we're defending our people, we're defending our allies in the Middle East, we're not being distracted from what he gets up to. and yes we first saw an attack submarine a Kula class submarine part of the Russian Navy that was likely to be a decoy but we picked up the other two secret submarines part of the Gugi operation and we tracked both the attack submarine for as long as it was in and around our waters and those of our allies until it retreated headed back to port north into the Russian high north and then we continued to track the two Gugi submarines so that we were able to watch them every step of the way and make clear to them they were being monitored, they were being watched, and the covert operation that Putin plans had been exposed.

5:49Adam Fleming:But they still felt that they could hang around in our waters for a whole month. Well, they did. Because surely if they were threatened by us or impressed by our show of force, they would have done a U-turn much quicker.

6:01John Healey:Well, their purpose, remember, was a secret operation that we exposed, was a covert operation that we watched 24-7, and a very substantial operation that demonstrated the, if you like, the capabilities of our own armed forces to Putin, as well as I hope to reassure our public. So, you know, we had more than 500 personnel involved in this, and that was just the UK effort alone. So it demonstrates, if you like, to Putin, we've got the capability to detect what he does. We've got the capability to deter and expose what he does. And if necessary, we will have the capability also to respond if indeed there's any damage to our pipelines or our cables.

6:42Adam Fleming:And that there's no evidence of that as a result of this?

6:44John Healey:No evidence of any damage, but we with allies will make sure that is verified. But despite having a really, if you like, resilient infrastructure in the UK, the threats are increasing. And this is a demonstration that we're on it. We're tracking those Russian threats. We've got the capability to detect them, to track them. And if necessary, we've got the capability also to respond to them, and we will. Would you expect a Russian response? Well, we'll see. I called out their spy ship Yantar back in November. I think I got a bit of abuse from the Kremlin in some of the statements from spokespeople, but we'll see.

7:23John Healey:The important thing for me is that Putin planned a covert operation. We've exposed it. And he cannot now deny the threat that he poses to our undersea infrastructure.

7:36Adam Fleming:Why are you going public about this? Because I assume the Russians knew what you were doing. So the Kremlin will have got the message. Why are you laying it on this thick with the public as well?

7:47John Healey:because I want the public to recognise that despite all eyes on the Middle East, understandably, and this noisy, dangerous conflict that we've got out there, there are other threats that our nation faces. Our forces are alert to those, tracking those and dealing with those 24-7. And it's also we're reminding people that we're rightly concerned about the Middle East. We want to see a ceasefire there. We want to see the stability returned and the lifeblood of shipping restored through the Strait of Hormuz. But the primary threat to the UK remains rising Russian aggression. That's a threat to us.

8:26John Healey:It's a threat to our NATO allies. And it's why NATO is developing its deterrence, its defense, and it's now bigger, stronger and better funded than it was before Putin invaded Ukraine.

8:41Adam Fleming:That raises about a million more questions. You talk about the situation in the Gulf. Doing this, did that prevent us doing things that as a country you would have liked to do in the Gulf and in the Middle East in the last month?

8:52John Healey:No, because we've got forces that are capable of doing more than one thing at once. I'm proud of what we've done in the Middle East. It was weeks before this current conflict broke out that I put extra planes, radar systems, air defence systems and personnel into the Middle East. We stepped that up when we've seen the, if you like, the scale and the indiscriminate nature of the Iranian response.

9:15Adam Fleming:So there wasn't an opportunity cost from working in British waters for what you'd have done in the Middle East? No, one and the same time.

9:22John Healey:This operation ran for over a month, almost simultaneously with the current conflict in the Middle East. We work particularly closely with Norway and the defence minister there, the government minister there, the government share our dedication to deal and confront with the threat that Putin poses to the North Atlantic. And I remember when I was last in Norway, I've been there two or three times now. Before Christmas, the Norwegian defence minister hosted us. I coordinated the meeting of 10 what we call Jeff allies, Nordic and Baltic countries. And we wargamed half a mile inside a Norwegian mountain.

10:02John Healey:Exactly this sort of.

10:03Adam Fleming:In a bunker.

10:04John Healey:Exactly. It's sort of mountain bunker. It's the one of the operational headquarters of the Norwegians. But we wargamed together, the 10 defence ministers. the responses that we needed to make to this type of Russian hybrid activity.

10:19Adam Fleming:And were you doing various scenarios in that war game? Like, was there an incredibly serious one? I mean, it's all serious, but I mean, a really, really dramatic one.

10:26John Healey:It's all serious. It can all have serious consequences. And the point about this is to recognise that Russia poses this rising threat, that its level of activities are increasing. So over the last two years, we've seen by nearly a third, the increase in the number of Russian vessels encroaching on our wider waters. It's the same for other NATO allies.

10:48Adam Fleming:Which suggests that your deterrence up until now has not been working because the Russians keep sending more ships, which means they're not scared. Well, it's not going to stop, but the point is that we...

10:58John Healey:But it's increasing. We track it. Well, the Russian aggression is increasing, not just the threat it poses to our undersea infrastructure. The number of incursions of Russian planes into NATO airspace, the cyber attacks that we and other nations are facing, including from Russia, is clearly on the increase. And it is why that we're working more closely with allies. It's why you had Keir Starmer about a month ago in a big speech at the Munich Security Conference said, look, hard power is the currency of the age. It's why as a government we're putting now record increases of investment into defence, because that's required to deal with the increasing demands on defence and the increasing threats that we face.

11:39John Healey:And at the moment, our priority is in the high north this operation has demonstrated that and we've announced and he announced back actually in his munich security conference speech that we would be sending the prince of wales uk carrier as nato's flagship leading a nato high north deployment we'd be sending it to the high north and help patrol that northern reaches of the atlantic and it's also why we're playing the lead role now also in NATO's new mission Arctic century. We're recognising the threats in the high north, recognising the role and responsibility of the UK can play in leading the sort of operations to protect our northern flank.

12:19Adam Fleming:How do you describe what situation we're in with Russia now? Because some people say, oh, this is looking a little bit like we're kind of in a weird war with Russia now. How would you describe what it is? I would say, first of all,

12:32John Healey:that Putin has the capability to certainly wage hybrid warfare on us. Its Googie operation is designed to do that, as I say, to be able to map and survey our undersea infrastructure now in peacetime, but also sabotage it, damage it, destroy it in conflict. And that's one reminder of the threat that Putin poses. But the important thing for me as Defence Secretary, and it's why I work so hard on the close alliances with nations like Norway and with the US and within NATO, is that we don't defend alone, we don't deter alone, and if we're forced to fight, we won't fight alone. And that's the great strength of the NATO ally alliance.

13:21Adam Fleming:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. The first thing to say about this interview is that it's about a subject we didn't expect it to be about. We heard that the Defence Secretary wanted to make an announcement about British military operations and we all assumed it would be British military operations in the Gulf related to the US and Israeli war with Iran. Instead it was something much much closer to home, this covert operation against Russia off the coast of the UK. Also, I think it's always very revealing when British defence secretaries want to talk about real-life operational activity.

14:03Adam Fleming:Obviously, in this case, John Healy wants us to be alive and reminded to the threat posed by Russia. But part of me also wonders if he's responding to lots of criticism that's been around lately, that the British military has been a bit hollowed out and maybe really wouldn't be up to fighting a war. Okay, let's return to my conversation with John Healy. Was the US involved in this operation? Well, I'm not disclosing the details of other allies.

14:32John Healey:Just Norway. The Norwegians have confirmed. Oh, so they were happy to go back to the operation. We're two nations now that will increasingly put together a combined anti-submarine force of frigates, of aircraft, of autonomous systems that will do what we've done as two nations together for decades, but reinforce our ability to defend NATO northern flank. Sounds like a special relationship, but with Norway this time. I regard it as special. I regard the degree of cooperation, the degree of understanding, the shared determination we have to recognize that the high north is a priority area it's an area of greatest threat from russia and that with putin increasing his russian levels of activity and potential threat to us and our allies like norway we meet that best by not just rebuilding the strength of our forces as we are with the record investment but we do so by strengthening our alliances And so you've seen, I think, from Keir Starmer and this government, hard power.

15:42John Healey:You see the development of strong alliances and the exercise of sure diplomacy. You say you want to strengthen alliances. Is Donald Trump weakening them? I make a point not of commenting on his social media posts. Even when he threatens to end an entire civilization? That was clearly something that, as a government, we took issue with. I think the point for me is when I talk with his Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth, when I sit next to him at NATO, defence ministers, he's very clear, as President Trump has been with our prime minister, that the US remain totally committed to NATO and to Article 5.

16:20John Healey:but they require rightly in my view but they require and are pushing as hard as european nations to do more within nato so take on more of the leadership with ukraine which we are as the uk and to do more to invest in defense which we are and we will do more as the uk but also to do more of the if you like the heavy lifting within nato to defend the north atlantic and the wider european area. And I think this operation is a very good example of exactly that.

16:54Adam Fleming:You don't want to talk about Donald Trump's social media posts. I can understand that.

16:57John Healey:My focus as defence minister for the UK is to make sure that we play our leading part, as other nations want us to do, in building up the European strength of NATO, responding to the challenge from the US to do more. And, you know, I think we've demonstrated that by exposing the not just the nature of Putin's covert operation but by setting out the detail of how substantial our armed forces with allies okay has been in order to deal with those

17:28Adam Fleming:threats is there a world where in the very near future British military personnel are helping to keep the Strait of Hormuz open and I mean keeping it open by being there doing stuff first and