John Kerry: Countries failing to deal with climate change

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1:05TextNow. We've got your back. Download TextNow in your app store today. Wireless plans require the purchase of a SIM card. Visit textnow.com for terms and conditions. Hello, I'm Wahiga Mwaura, the BBC's presenter for Focus on Africa, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need assist fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.

1:45This is a war. The first thing that we want is a war to end. Well, for this interview, I met former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who was in Kenya for the Our Oceans Conference, an annual international conference aimed at finding ways to protect the ocean. Well, John Kerry launched the conference back in 2014 when he was the U.S. Secretary of State. This year's event was the first time it was held in an African country. Global leaders announced$6.4 billion for ocean action, which includes sustainable fisheries, climate resilience and the blue economy. There is also a commitment to protecting at least 30 % of the ocean by 2030.

2:26However, some are concerned that progress is not keeping pace with what is needed. Speaking to delegates at the conference, John Kerry called on governments to step up efforts to protect the world's oceans, but recognize the role that Africa is playing. And I've seen something else all around the world, and you're seeing it right here today in this meeting. Leadership, innovation, determination. Because while Africa has contributed the least of any part of the world to this crisis, it is increasingly now helping to lead the world's response. Kerry also served as the first U.S. Special Presidential Envoy for Climate from 2021 to 2024, and has since continued to work in this area.

3:18He tells me that he's concerned by the way governments around the world are failing to tackle climate change. Well, I'm worried, you know, not just about the United States. There are many parts of the world where people have retreated slightly. To some degree, certain words that deal with climate have been weaponized. I think it's a very, very short-sighted, myopic view of the world for people to sort of just deny the science and procrastinate and not do the things that we've been warned we need to do. When I spoke to John Kerry, the U.S. and Iran had just agreed on a deal aimed at ending the conflict between the two countries.

3:59Kerry, who helped negotiate a nuclear deal with Iran when he was President Barack Obama's Secretary of State, tells me that this war shouldn't have started in the first place. This war was completely unnecessary. It was a war of choice. It was engaged in after the president and others around the president met with the Prime Minister of Israel, who came to Washington to ask Barack Obama to bomb and Barack Obama said no, who came to Washington and asked President Biden to bomb and President Biden said no. And Donald Trump said, sounds good to me.

4:39Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with John Kerry in a conversation I recorded earlier this month. How serious would you term the threat of marine pollution today, particularly from plastics to the global oceans? It's an enormous threat, not just to the ocean, but to human beings. We see instances of fish in various parts of the world that are taking microplastics into their bodies. It's passed on to us when we eat. Human beings are now unwillfully eating very significant amounts of heavy metals that come from the ocean. But the plastic situation is a killer. It's a killer for seabirds, for sea life, and it's drowning the ocean in many respects.

5:33So a conference like the one you're attending is supposed to provide solutions to this. But how possible do you think this is? At a time when, you know, we have some figures here that suggest that developed countries have not met a target to deliver$40 billion to help poorer nations adapt to climate change, amongst other challenges. Are conferences like these really making a difference? Yes, they are. At least this conference is making a difference. The Our Oceans Conference began when I was Secretary of State in 2014, and we started this process. This is now the 11th meeting. COVID knocked us out of one cycle.

6:10But in the course of these meetings, literally$169 billion has been pledged for certain new efforts and initiatives to address some of the ocean challenges. About$26 billion of that has already been delivered. So the reality is it's not just talk, it's happening. There are 500 organizations in some 96 countries that are delivering help and assistance and frameworks. The world came together to pass the biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. And what's happened is we've had an amazing response on a global basis to countries that are now setting aside areas of their fisheries in order to be able to guarantee that they are not plundered and that legal fishing is taking place.

7:04There's a terrible problem on a global basis with pirate fishing that takes place without any regard for the fishing stocks or for the long term future. So I think, you know, this process has actually provided a platform for people to be able to come together and assert the law. And in the last year, some 90 nations have now joined, signed on to and given life to this treaty. It is ratified. It is now the law globally. And it's having an impact on how people are addressing ocean challenges. So I think this is producing a great deal. You know, 17 of the 20 most affected countries in the world to climate crisis are in Africa.

7:53And Africa is a young nation. You know, 60 percent of the population of Africa is under the age of 25 and they are going to be the jobs of the future. Those are the people who are going to be doing the work and growing as the marketplace grows for them. So it's really a moment of great transformation with huge possibilities for protection of the oceans, which is critical to life on the planet. Mr. Kerry, one of the hopes for those who are seeking to protect the oceans is to grow the blue economy. It's a big talking point on the African continent. But one of the aims is to ensure sustainable jobs for an estimated 600 million Africans, mostly young people who rely on ocean resources for their livelihoods.

8:37Are you able to give us specific, tangible efforts that are being made on this front? Well, getting jobs for young people in Africa is a focus of every government on the continent. And right now we're seeing an enormous number of people taking part in what's called the blue economy. The blue economy is obviously that economy, which is part of the oceans, but also part of all the linkages, shipbuilding, propulsion systems, fuel, stocking those ships in various ports around the world, fixing those ships when they need to be fixed. There's a huge economy there. And in addition, we're seeing an enormous number of jobs, you know, in communities as a consequence.

9:24I mean, it's not just on the ocean that the blue economy plays out. Restaurants, fish eating. I mean, it's a huge part of the overall global economy. And there are significant indicators that maybe 300 billion, I guess, for Africa, which will go up or could go up to 400 and some billion as people are hired. And as the job market grows, some additional about 50 million jobs currently, and they figure it'll be around 55 million or higher within a short span of time. Mr. Kerry, scientists are warning that in the coming months we could see a resurgence of the El Nino phenomenon. This is when the oceans are warmed up, which obviously is translated to weather effects on land.

10:13Is the world ready at this moment for extreme weather and record temperatures? What's your reading of this? Well, we haven't done the things we need to do, which scientists have told us and other policy planners have told us we need to do, which is build resilience. We need to adapt. And that means you have to put a certain amount of effort into infrastructure that is going to help protect communities when you get those extreme weather events. But yes, there has been a massive loss of GDP. Many people calculate that the GDP loss for Africa alone, just because of those extreme weather events, is somewhere between 2 % and 5 % a year.

10:55that drop in global production, in your GDP, that you have to suffer because you're not doing the things that you could be doing, which themselves, if you did them, would provide people good, solid jobs. So it's a question of setting priorities. I think leaders in Africa, President Ruto of Kenya is hosting this conference. He hosted a conference on the climate impact on Africa just a couple of years ago. It was very well attended, and I think very substantive. So I think there's a genuine effort by many leaders. There are a lot of countries here. I think there are about 55 countries represented.

11:34Not every country in the world, obviously, is an ocean, you know, coastal country. But 55 nations here with official delegations from all of them all focused on how to do a better job of preparing for the future and of doing the things we need to do in order to protect citizens in all of our countries. As a former U.S. Secretary of State, are you worried that the United States and some of its allies are no longer as keen on meeting climate targets as they were in the past? Well, I'm worried, you know, not just about the United States. There are many parts of the world where people have retreated slightly to some degree.

12:12Certain words that deal with climate have been weaponized. I think it's a very, very short sighted, myopic view of the world for people to sort of just deny the science and procrastinate and not do the things that we've been warned we need to do. And you'd think that from the things that are happening all around the planet, you know, the fires, the mudslides, the extreme hurricanes, the extreme tornadoes, the warming of the ocean in some parts of the world just a year ago was 101 degrees Fahrenheit in the ocean. and we're seeing massive shift of fish stocks and of deterioration in the ability of certain flora and fauna of the ocean to be able to grow where they've grown for many centuries.

13:05I mean, Secretary, I ask you this because the U.S. does set the tone in many ways for the world's agenda. The G7 meeting is on right now. I haven't seen anything yet on the agenda in regards to climate action. Again, does that concern, if the U.S. was more forthright about climate action at this time, do you think we'd be having a difference and President Trump to be specific? I think, of course we would. There's no question. For whatever reasons, President Trump has decided to assault offshore wind.

13:39And, you know, anybody in the business will tell you that it is cheaper now to deploy wind and solar together in order to deal with the challenges of grids and of providing people with sustainable, firm energy, as we call it. Texas is the fastest growing deployer. Texas, which obviously is the home of oil and gas, is the largest deployer of wind and solar in the United States. And they're not doing it as a favor. They're not doing it because they want to be politically correct, particularly not the people in the oil and gas industry. But they're doing it because it's the best way for them to provide energy through their grid.

14:18And it's also balancing their delivery of energy in a way that allows them to lower the price for people and also using storage, be able to guarantee them they'll have energy available to them. So I think you're seeing the marketplace make its own set of decisions. The marketplace has decided the energy transition is taking place and will take place. It must take place. And that energy transition is producing enormous amounts of new companies, new ideas, new technologies, which are going to facilitate this transition. And we're seeing it all over the world in things like geothermal, enhanced geothermal, in storage, in batteries, better batteries, in solar panels that now have reduced the cost of solar to almost nothing.

15:15I mean, there's an incredible transformation taking place and people who ignore it are really doing so at their own financial risk.

15:28you're listening to the interview from the bbc world service

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16:47And just ahead of the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding, which outlined a series of steps to end the war between the United States, Israel and Iran. Now, we'd originally invited him to talk about ocean protection, an issue that's especially important for many African countries with significant coastlines. But we were also keen to get his thoughts on the situation in the Middle East. Now, this is the first time the Our Ocean Conference was held in an African country, which is important because many African countries have a significant part of their population relying on the ocean for jobs, food and trade, whilst also dealing with the effects of climate change.

17:28The conference led to more than 320 commitments worth$6.4 billion from governments, businesses and other organizations. One of the main outcomes was the Mombasa Declaration, signed by 15 countries, which aims to improve transparency in fishing and crack down on illegal fishing. Kenya's President William Ruto also called for more global political will and action in protecting oceans and translating conservation promises into reality. Well, I was also keen to get John Kerry's perspectives on whether the world was ready for extreme weather conditions, such as the looming Super El Nino, which scientists say could threaten global food supplies.

18:10Kerry was frank that as the world drags its feet on adaptation, especially developed countries, then the global south would continue to bear the brunt or burden of climate change. Now, I must confess, it took some persistence to secure this interview because Kerry had a packed schedule at the conference, moving between meetings and discussions with various leaders. When we finally sat down, he was generous with his time and willing to discuss both climate issues and international diplomacy. Given his role in negotiating the Iran nuclear deal while serving as Secretary of State, he offered a unique perspective on the situation between Washington and Tehran.

18:50OK, let's return to my conversation with John Kerry. You join us at an interesting time. As I mentioned, G7 is happening this day or two from now. We expect a U.S.-Iran deal to be signed. At least that's what we're being told. What impact do wars and conflicts, in your view, have on climate action? Well, wars are wars are, first of all, horrendous for human beings and for people. And I think we've learned through centuries that war is the failure of diplomacy, and we ought to do better diplomacy in order to avoid it if we can. But I think it's very, very clear that war with bombs going off that destroy facilities, destroy homes, release gases, release CO2 in heightened amounts.

19:37I mean, the direct impact on environment of destruction of oil and gas facilities, for instance, just has a profound impact on the atmosphere, on climate and on life itself. I mean, when you hear of a peace deal being signed on Friday, in your view, you know, when you think about that, and you sat there as the secretary of state, and I believe you helped broke our previous deal. What do you think could have been done differently in this administration regarding this situation in Iran? Well, first of all, it's not a peace agreement. Let's be very, very clear. It's an agreement which fairly is going to codify, you know, it's going to crystallize a couple of things, one of which how the Straits of Hormuz will work.

20:20But just guess what? The Straits of Remus were not at issue prior to Donald Trump tearing up the agreement. And the fact is no one until now has ever taken control of it in a way that works adversely for the rest of the world. Moreover, the real challenge here is about the nuclear weapon. Now, Iran says they're not going to create a nuclear weapon. Well, they said that to us. I had the privilege of leading those negotiations. I spent weeks in Vienna sitting there negotiating with the Iranians. And I can tell you right now that getting the agreement that Trump wants is going to be extremely complicated and difficult.

21:07And it's not, you know, they will say that we don't plan to make a nuclear weapon. OK, fine. But that's what they've always said. And the fact is that unless you can prevent them from cheating and have adequate inspection to be able to guarantee it, it's a meaningless statement. So we have a long way to go to actually reach what you would call peace. This is more of a sort of, you know, a kind of ceasefire and an agreement to try to agree. That's basically what you've got. Mr. Kerry, one of the things I'm sure you'll hear at the Oceans Conference from African delegates is how energy costs on the continent have gone up.

21:48A lot of them are tying it to the situation on the Strait of Hormuz. Was this war necessary in the first place from your perspective? No, this war was completely unnecessary. It was a war of choice. It was engaged in after the president and others around the president met with the prime minister of Israel. who came to Washington to ask Barack Obama to bomb, and Barack Obama said no, who came to Washington and asked President Biden to bomb, and President Biden said no, and Donald Trump said, sounds good to me. So we're where we are today because the president did not pursue diplomacy. I am told, I don't know this for a fact, but I am told that the deal that was put on the table just prior to the president deciding to go to war was actually a pretty good beginning place for an agreement.

22:42And I think, you know, the world needs to see what was in fact really on the table at that moment in time. Maybe my last word for you in this, what should African countries do to get real value out of the conference you're attending there today? If you had a word of advice for African nations, what should they rally or push for the most or how to do it? I think the most important thing is for people everywhere in Africa, the demand that their leadership is pushing in the direction of deploying renewables, of bringing them energy, which is not going to hurt them, but it's going to help them with sustainability at its core.

23:20I think that there's a great amount of job growth if this effort to spread the wealth of energy will reach all parts of Africa. There are many places where Africa has 40, 50 percent electricity penetration. But you get away from those centers of living, obviously, in this great absence of energy, of electricity. So I think there's a lot more the world can do to work with Africa regarding that. I think the leaders in Africa will be increasingly, as they are now, focused on these alternative types of energy, which don't leave lasting negative impacts like emissions that heat the earth and create the other problems that come with the climate crisis.

24:10I find that African leadership is really tuned in. They're very, very focused on this particular choice type of energy. And I think with good efforts, but we're not talking, by the way, about, you know, major finance mechanisms and programs. We're talking about working at the basics of how you put together business deals that will actually deliver energy that will be not overly expensive and available to the people who want it.

24:58youngest billionaires Mohamed Jouji, former Sudanese leader Aisha Moussa, and Sierra Leone's first lady Fatima Biyo, plus many others. Until next time, it's bye for now.

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