Kamala Harris on her 107-day presidential bid

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm Laura Koonsberg, BBC political journalist and presenter. And this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations that come out of the BBC with the people who shape our world. from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. This week, we hear from Kamala Harris, the former Vice President of the United States.

2:03She ran the shortest presidential campaign in modern North American history, after Joe Biden abruptly withdrew after a disastrous debate against Donald Trump. Now, in her book, 107 Days, she chronicles the whirlwind campaign and the emotional and political turbulence that defined it. I met her in London during her book tour to reflect on that pivotal chapter for America. In our conversation, she opens up about the pressure of entering the race so late, the sting of defeat, and her candid thoughts on Biden's decision to step aside and her future. She reflects on Trump's America, making clear her contempt for the president.

2:47She shares her vision for the Democratic Party's future, what she believes it must do to reclaim America, and what her role could be in making that happen. I am not done. I have lived my entire career a life of service and it's in my bones and there are many ways to serve. I've not decided yet what I will do in the future beyond what I'm doing right now. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Laura Kunzberg. Madam Vice President, you tell this rollercoaster story of the 107 days of your campaign and it's a rollicking read. I've read it three times. No kidding. Yeah, because it's almost like a thriller.

3:33But it's clear you don't think losing the election was all your fault. So, Madam Vice President, you say you'd underestimated the public's dislike of a frail 81-year-old running again. Do you feel that President Biden and his team torpedoed your chances of a fair chance at winning the election? Well, as I've written, the buck stops with me in terms of my campaign. It always did. And I take full responsibility for what I did. And that's part of why I wrote the book is to talk about the reflections that I've had on those 107 days, what I thought were strengths, but what I also thought could have been better.

4:11And, you know, I wrote the book for many reasons. And primarily, this election in the U.S. was unprecedented. We had a president of the United States, seated vice president of the United States, running for re-election and decides not to run three and a half months before the election. The sitting vice president then takes up the mantle, running against a former president of the United States who had been running for 10 years with 107 days to go. And I was absolutely intent on making sure my voice would be present when history reflects those 107 days. The reason that you ended up in that situation, and you say very clearly in the book, essentially, you didn't have time.

4:58You didn't have time to make the campaign your own. You didn't have time to show the public what you believe you could really do. And you also say, President Biden pulling out should not have been a choice for an individual ego or an individual's ambition. Do you feel that you were deliberately kept in the dark about what was going on and how much she was struggling behind the scenes? What I have written is what I believe, which is one, we needed more time. There's no question about that. Two, there were many factors that contributed to the outcome of that election. But being mindful of the fact that there were extraordinary people who were involved in those 107 days in building up an inordinate amount for the time that we had, enthusiasm and, dare I say, joy around the possibility for our country.

5:46And that comes across. But the context here, I think, at this historical moment you talk about is so important because there had been months of speculation around the world, here in the UK too, even in April, long before President Biden pulled out. We asked Nancy Pelosi what was going wrong. This was a huge subject of discussion. And you write that President Biden didn't raise his frailty with you. And you write that you didn't really raise it with him. That's extraordinary to read in your account. Well, let's be more precise. Let's be more precise because what I spoke of in the book is that there is a very serious difference between capacity to be president of the United States and the capacity to run for president of the United States.

6:36And so it is on that latter piece that I talk about in the book, about my concern about his ability with the level of endurance, energy, that it requires, especially running against now the current president. And you rightly point out that I, in reflection, realize that, and I ask, was it on my behalf grace or recklessness? To not raise the point with him about whether it was right for him to run. But let's be clear, my question was never about his capacity to be president. But isn't it a strange message to the public to say, you know what, you need to be tougher and more able to run a political campaign than actually to be the person behind the desk in the Oval Office, to be the person making decisions in the Situation Room?

7:30So were you unwilling to raise it or were you unaware of how profound the issues were? Which issues in particular? His frailty, his obvious frailties, and I know you were a loyal vice president, but President Biden's frailties were a subject of discussion right across the world for many months before. So did you just not think it was that bad or did you feel you just couldn't raise it? I was concerned about his ability to run for re-election, given what the campaign would require and requires of any individual, regardless of their age. and to run while being the sitting president of the United States with all of the responsibilities that that requires.

8:14You were the vice president of the United States. And before that, you were a celebrated prosecutor. You spent your career, incredibly successful career, hunting for the truth. Do you feel that you were told the full truth by President Biden and his team about what was really going on in the months of running up to the decision to quit? Full truth about what exactly? About his health, about how difficult he was finding things. There's a lot of very well-respected reporting now in the United States that uses phrases like cover-up, that talks about well-widespread concerns. And you yourself say in the book, it shouldn't have been a choice for an individual's ego.

8:54And so we have talked about that. I do reflect on whether I should have had a conversation with him, urging him not to run for re-election because of what that would require. And given the stakes, most importantly, because, as you know, I predicted just about everything that has now happened since the election. And we'll come to that. And so my concern, and especially on reflection, is should I have actually raised it? Part of the issue there was that would it have actually been an effective and productive conversation, given what would otherwise appear to be my self-interest in initiating the conversation?

9:40You say you've reflected on whether you wish you'd had that conversation with President Biden urging him to pull out. in the end, it took other people's voices and even George Clooney writing an article in a newspaper saying it was time to pull the plug. Is it your belief that you would now be president if Joe Biden had pulled out earlier? I can't speculate about that. I do know we needed more time. That I'm sure of. But if you needed more time, you might have won and you might therefore be president right now if he had pulled out earlier. That's speculation. Well, that's the logic of what you're saying.

10:15You're saying if you'd had more time, you might have won. I'm not going to, I can't predict what the outcome would have been, but I am certain we needed more time, 107 days to run for president of the United States against a former president of the United States in this political environment with, as I also have written, the vast amount of misinformation, the need to actually speak with a nation of 330 million people about not only who I am, but what I stood for in terms of the policies that I do believe actually are very salient and address the highest priorities of the American people. 107 days was clearly not enough time to do all of that.

10:57And what leaps off every page is you threw yourself into those 107 days. Indeed I did. And my team did too. I have an extraordinary team. They, from the first day I got the call from President Biden on a Sunday afternoon while I was in my sweats with a ponytail, having made pancakes and bacon and sausages for my baby nieces. From that day and that afternoon when they all showed up, half of us had been working out and not had even a shower. And for those 107 days, they worked around the clock and left everything on the table, everything on the field. And when it comes to your campaign, you've already said the buck stops with you.

11:35Indeed. You had massively successful rallies. You had a crazy number of celebrity endorsements. You had Oprah Winfrey turning out for you. You had Taylor Swift backing you. But there's little in the book about why you feel you didn't connect with ordinary voters, those people in the middle who could have gone either way. And indeed, during the campaign, Gen Z and Latinos in some numbers moved across to Trump. You stayed in your comfort zone, didn't you? That was the Democrats' problem. I received 75 million votes from a variety of people. But in the Electoral College, you were not finished. I'm not finished.

12:11I received 75 million votes from people around the nation of every stripe, whether it be geographic location, race, gender, and age. And it is true, however, and I also reflect and write on that, that for probably a decade, Democrats have been losing certain sectors of society. And there's work that we need to get done. One of the reasons that I ran on the issue of child care, of Medicare, basically health coverage for home health care for people, for example, who are raising young children and taking care of their parents. One of the reasons I ran on a perspective that we need to make housing more affordable.

12:52So I was offering a$25 ,000 down credit for first-time homebuyers. I ran on an agenda that was about going after price gouging, corporations taking advantage of working people. But why didn't it connect with working people? Well, it did connect with working people, but clearly there was more work to be done. But why? Because we needed more time to talk with more people, and we have to understand the context, which is that if you look at the trends that had been in play probably at least since, if not before, 2016, you were seeing for the Democratic Party that there was a shift taking place among the demographics you have mentioned.

13:34And that's work that needs to be done. And that's work that I and others are working on to remind people that it has always been the Democratic Party that has stood for working people. And the work we need to do going forward is also, frankly, to provide the contrast. Because right now we have a president in the Oval Office who is building a ballroom for his rich friends while he is depriving working people of health care during this government shutdown period. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed?

14:26In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists.

15:17More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:31For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Kamala Harris, the former US Vice President. I met her in London to talk about what went wrong and what might happen next. Harris still travels with some of the trappings of power. An entourage aids nervously watching every minute of the clock, her life still choreographed, even though this is meant to be a book tour. But could it be the beginning of a campaign of a different sort? Let's return to our conversation with the former US Vice President Kamala Harris. There's an evocative moment in the book where you realise you've lost and you say, my God, my God, what happened to our country?

16:15And as you've mentioned, the Trump administration is pulling down the East Wing of the White House, turning many conventions on their head. There's a shutdown in the federal government. In the campaign, you said Donald Trump was a fascist. Do you think he's running a fascist authoritarian government? I was asked if he was a fascist and I said yes. And the reason is that I look at what is happening right now. And again, it is what I predicted. He said he would weaponize the Department of Justice. He has done exactly that. He has used the United States Department of Justice, which should be an independent agency that makes decisions based on fact and law and not personal vengeance of the president of the United States.

16:56But this is how he has conducted himself, so much so that recently he has dared to suggest that the United States Department of Justice, which is an agency of the people of America, funded by their tax dollars, should give him 200 and X number of million dollars because of a prosecution and investigation that he rightly deserved. You look at what has happened in terms of how he has weaponized, for example, federal agencies around going after political satirists. His skin is so thin, he couldn't endure criticism from a joke and attempted to shut down an entire media organization in the process.

17:46And you are critical of billionaires and other institutions bowing down, capitulation. There are not all, but there are many that have capitulated since day one who are bending the knee at the foot of a tyrant, I believe for many reasons, including they want to be next to power because they want to perhaps have a merger approved or avoid an investigation. And it is a crying shame that when push comes to shove, we can't count on the titans of industry to at least posture in a way that is about maintaining the guardrails around a democracy and democratic system. What then of foreign leaders? I just wonder, what did you feel when you heard that Keir Starmer had presented an invitation from the king to Donald Trump in the view of the world's media, in the guilt of the Oval Office?

18:44Did you think that was cheesy or did it make you feel queasy or was it obsequious? You know, is there a risk that foreign leaders are being played by Donald Trump because they have to show their closer power? I do believe that Donald Trump, as I said on the debate stage before the election, and I maintain it to be true, he has shown his very nature. In the foreign stage, he has proven over a long period of time that he invites favor and flattery. and what I said on the debate stage, like everything else I said and predicted, continues to be true. So you would make that warning to foreign leaders to be careful what they wish for by getting too close.

19:31Foreign leaders will do as they think is right for their country. And yet Donald Trump has made progress of a sorts in the Middle East that President Biden and you, I know you worked hard on this, failed to make. Do you praise the achievements he's made in terms of seeming to move the Gaza-Israel conflict towards resolution? Listen, I think that, first of all, I'm very, very happy that we now have a situation where the hostages are out. There's still more work to be done. I think credit should be given where credit is due, whether it be Egypt, Qatar, or this administration and this president. There is good work that happened, but there's a whole lot more to do.

20:10And as you can see, when we're talking about in particular, one, the fragility of the ceasefire. Two, equally important, and something I've been working on since October 8th, what is the plan for the day after, which includes the security, the governance and the rebuilding of Gaza? Let's talk then about what's next for you. And also what's changed in your life since then, Donald Trump stripped you of your Secret Service protection at a time when there had been attempts on his life. Of course, there have been other political killings in the US, most notably recently the killing of Charlie Kirk.

20:48Has Donald Trump's decision put you in danger? I feel safe. Why do you think he did it? You'll have to ask him. Well, you must have thought about it. You have to ask him. I don't pretend to know why people do what they do on a daily basis. In terms then of what is next for you, you write very powerfully about the differences that many women have made to your life, whether that was your meeting with Angela Merkel or the experience of growing up with your extraordinary mother or the stories of your baby nieces, Amara and Leela, when are they going to see a woman in charge in the White House? In their lifetime, for sure.

21:24Could it be you? Possibly. Have you made a decision yet? No, I have not. What about running again as someone else's vice president or maybe being part of another ticket? If Gavin Newsom, your fellow Californian, said, come and be my secretary of state. Would you consider that? Right now I'm focused on my book tour. And I'm glad to know that you read it three times. I did. I read it three times because it's a great read. Thank you. But you say in your book, I'm not done. That is correct. I am not done. I have lived my entire career a life of service. And it's in my bones. And there are many ways to serve.

22:00I've not decided yet what I will do in the future beyond what I'm doing right now, which is meeting with many people. Obviously, right now I'm in the U.K., but otherwise I've been spending a lot of time in our country. Most recently I was spending an incredible amount of time in the South. I was in Georgia and North Carolina and Alabama and talking with people and mostly listening, and I'm enjoying doing that. I think that people want to be heard right now. And one of the reasons that I decided not to run for governor of California, I want to listen to people without it being transactional, without asking people for their vote, but listening to them.

22:41I think the American people have a lot to say right now. But you've been very clear that it's a possibility you might run again to become president. And in my experience, interviewing politicians, when someone says I'm not done, it means they are thinking seriously about running. But when you look at the bookies' odds, they put you as an outsider, even behind Dwayne the Rock Johnson. I mean, is that underestimating you? I think there are all kinds of polls that will tell you a variety of things. I've never listened to polls. If I listened to polls, I would have not run from my first office or my second office.

23:13And I certainly wouldn't be sitting here in this interview. So your message to supporters at the end of the book was, if you fight, you win. You fought and you lost, but next time. No, my message is, I do believe that when you fight, you win. but sometimes the fight takes a while. That was my message. Let's close with a couple of fun things, if I can squeeze them. Sure. Because one of the things that also comes across in the book is part of maybe the showbiz side of campaigning. You obviously enjoy it and meeting musicians and creative people. And people who, you might, I think the challenge is you recognize the famous names, so you're speaking of them.

23:49But there were millions of people that you wouldn't recognize their name who I met with who gave me an incredible amount of joy and really continued to give me a sense of confidence in who the American people are and their optimism and their fight and their endurance and their love of country. Is Kamala still Bratz? I, you know, I think we're going to have to ask that beautiful artist who said it over a year ago. Maybe we'll ask Charlie XCX. What do you miss most about being vice president? I worked with wonderful people, and that was great. I mean, the work that I do, I do because I want to solve problems, and there was good work to be had.

24:41And what do you miss the least? I don't know. These are high-class problems to talk about things like that. Madam Vice President, thank you so much for giving us your time today. I'm glad to be with you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with education campaigner Malala Yousafzai, the tennis icon Bjorn Borg, and the president of Botswana, Duma Boko. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:14And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.