Karol Nawrocki, Polish President: Europe has lost its way

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

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1:15Hello, I'm Nick Robinson, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough I don't have army, I don't have missile rockets I have my body, I have my voice I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me For this interview, I spoke to the president of Poland, Karol Nowrowski, a historian and a boxer by background.

2:01He was elected in June 2025 with the support of Poland's conservative opposition Law and Justice Party. He's a social conservative, a devout Catholic and a staunch supporter of Donald Trump, telling me that the US president is the only person who can stop the threat to Europe coming from Vladimir Putin's Russia. President Avrotsky is also, like Donald Trump, an outspoken critic of the EU. Europe, he says, has lost its way. Europe for a number of years was involved in not so important things, in ideological issues such as Green Deal, for instance, climate policy, migration issues. It was not building its resilience and its security.

2:48In Poland, we allocate close to 5 % of GDP on defense. Central and Eastern Europe is aware of Russian threat. So the matter of defense, of common defense of European Union, all those issues lie with Central and Eastern Europe. And I'm happy that Europe is mature enough to understand this threat after many years.

3:14Part of our conversation was in English, which the president speaks fluently. but for most of the interview his team preferred us to speak in polish with his words translated welcome to the interview from the bbc world service with carol nevrotsky mr president can i begin by asking for you the threat of russia is very real in poland what does that threat mean to you we in poland we don't know different russia czarist russia white russia bolshevik russia on days Putin's Russia is always the threat for Poland, for Europe, for East Central Europe. In the history, we know only the Russia who is the threat.

3:57And even nowadays, in 21st century, after aggression on Ukraine, Russia is still a threat for Europe. And Donald Trump nowadays is only one leader who can solve this problem. And we have to support him in this process. He endorsed you as candidate to be president of Poland. But you all know many Europeans are scared of Donald Trump. They think he's too close to Putin. They think he wants to give land to Putin. Are you saying they're wrong to be scared of him? Of course, I don't trust Vladimir Putin at all. But we have to think how we can solve the problem of Russian aggression on Ukraine. So it means that we have to do everything to support Donald Trump to solve this problem.

4:46This is the most important thing. And, you know, I trust myself. I trust Polish soldiers. So this is the reason why we give so many money in Poland to increase Polish budget for military service. This is most important that Europe should know that investing in military security is the goal. And cooperation, transatlantic cooperation with the United States of America is indispensable. You've got to trust Trump, you say. And you think he's right about Europe, don't you, in many ways? You think his criticism that Europe is headed in the wrong direction, you think he's got a point? You know, this point of view is very similar between Donald Trump and me.

5:28Of course, Poland is the part of United Europe. I would like to stay in United Europe as the president of Poland. But this is the democracy that we can discuss about the mistakes which have been done in United Europe. problems with immigrants in Europe, ideology which is over the internal politics. This is the problem. We believe in Poland, in Polish constitution. We would like to be in United Europe to develop our economy. We don't want to be voivodeship of United Europe. It's natural. Democracy is about discussion. And we can be inside United Europe, build the solidarity of United Europe and discuss about the situation in which we are nowadays.

6:17And in this point of view, in this subject, I understand Donald Trump, he is responsible for security all over the world because he is the leader of the biggest and strongest country on the world. And he tried to convince United Europe leaders, as myself, that we should back the fundamentals of our union. You've met with Prime Minister Keir Starmer. You focused on the threat that Russia poses. Recently, around 20 drones came over the border from Russia to Poland. Did you feel like your resolve was being tested, as if NATO's resolve was being tested too? Yes, of course. That was the essence of this drone attack and violation of the Polish border.

7:08It was an extraordinary situation because up until that time, no NATO member state had experienced a drone attack on that scale. And so that was the violation of an airspace of a country which is a member of NATO. And that was the goal of Russia. There is no doubt about it. Russia was testing Poland's defence and testing NATO's solidarity. I'm very glad that this solidarity within NATO after the 10th of September last year proved that indeed we are a strong alliance and that we stand in a solidarity within NATO. I would also like to thank the British people, the British authorities. Thank you for sending typhoons to Poland.

7:45Of course, this sends a very bad message. As a matter of fact, Poland has been since 2021 in a state of hybrid war with the Russian Federation. There are attacks, pressure on the Polish border, drones, disinformation, misinformation and the activity of the Russians' intelligence. All of that demonstrates that we are living in dangerous times. It shows that the times are not safe.

8:36I participated in a number of conversations with President Donald Trump. I also participated in talks between European leaders and President Trump, and I guess all of us in Europe are aware of the fact that the United States is the guarantor of security in Europe. It is not through Donald Trump, but through European leaders, that Europe today is in that position in which it is today. As a matter of fact, Europe for a number of years was involved in not-so-important things, in ideological issues such as Green Deal, for instance, climate policy, migration issues, it was not building its resilience and its security.

9:11In Poland, we allocate close to 5 % of GDP on defense. Central and Eastern Europe is aware of Russia's threat. So the matter of defense, of common defense of European Union, all those issues lie with Central and Eastern Europe. And I'm happy that Europe is mature enough to understand this threat after many years. And Donald Trump is a leader, and generally speaking, the United States is a country which guarantees also Europe's security. So I'm a proponent of building transatlantic bonds with the United States, and this is something that I'm grateful for to President Donald Trump, that he understands how much he's needed by Europe.

9:51And you still trust him to deliver the security for Europe, because although you agree politically with Donald Trump, you would have good reasons. You're a historian. You're a Polish historian. You know the threat that the Kremlin poses, not just to your country, but to the whole continent. And he rolled out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin. And so far, he has got nothing in return. Do you worry, in the way that other European leaders do, that he might give territory to Russia? And that would have implications for your security, wouldn't it? The question of trust in politics is, of course, often the matter of an idealistic view.

10:32So we should believe in our nations. And this is the way I look at our security and what I can do. What I can do is to build strength and responsibility of Poland for its own territory and its own borders. But today it is not possible to build a security without strong alliances. And of course, within NATO, the strongest country is the United States of America. And I have been consistent while talking to President Trump and in larger formats with European leaders that I completely do not trust Vladimir Putin. I know the nature of Vladimir Putin. I know the nature of the Russian Federation. But we are also aware of the fact that the only person in the world who is able to negotiate with Vladimir Putin is Donald Trump.

11:14And that is why our task is to support Donald Trump in the negotiations. I wouldn't be a good negotiator with Vladimir Putin because I'm being persecuted or hunted by Vladimir Putin and Russian Federation. And what Donald Trump is doing also in behalf of the Europeans deserves support and great respect.

11:34Even when Donald Trump speaks of Greenland in the way he does, he says it should be part of the United States. He says we have to do something about Greenland, like it or not. if you speak again to Donald Trump, which I'm sure you will, will you say gently, come on, Mr. President, Greenland is part of NATO. You need to be part of the club, not threatening a member of the club. I think that the discussion about Greenland should first of all remain the matter between the Prime Minister of Denmark and President Donald Trump. All of us are aware how strategic Greenland is in the context of what we are seeing before our eyes.

12:13The role of the politician is to try to predict the future. And we can see that Greenland is also in the long term perspective in the strategic shift across the globe, where we are seeing there is an attempt going on to shift the whole geopolitical order. We are seeing also an aggressive economic and military policy. On the one hand, we are seeing the military aggression of the Russian Federation. On the other hand, we can see economic competition between the United States and China. And this is the context through the lens of which we are looking at Greenland. Of course, I'm deeply convinced that this matter will be resolved on the partnership basis within NATO and within democratic unity through the dialogue between United States of America and Denmark.

12:54But to be clear, for European leaders who say, we think Donald Trump cannot be trusted, you're saying, as someone who is close to him politically, don't worry about Greenland, don't worry that Donald Trump might invade a part of the European Union. Certainly I'm not able to predict the future, but always whenever I listen to European leaders with whom I'm also in touch, because Poland is part of the European Union and I'm the advocate of Poland being part of the European Union, but this does not take away from me the democratic possibility to criticize the number of things and many mistakes that the European Union has made in its climate policy and its migration policy.

13:38For many years, Europe was not involved in the right things. The war was coming with the Russian Federation. This is something that President Kaczynski mentioned back in 2009 and 2010. And at that time, Europe was making business with Vladimir Putin. Europe was receiving Russian gas. Economic business relations were developing between the Russian Federation and Europe. It's very well that Europe is awakened right now, but Europe also has to be aware that detaching Europe from the United States, and unfortunately, this is also something I'm seeing. It's neither good for economic security or military security of the European Union.

14:18You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

14:25If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

15:11And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

15:37Carol Nowrowski is typical of a new rising generation of politicians in Europe who threaten to overturn the old order. Young, charismatic, conservative. They see Donald Trump not as a threat, but indeed as the saviour of their continent, standing up for the same values, values which he calls patriotism. His enemies are not the US president, but the EU and, strikingly, his own government. Nowrowski is, in effect, at war with the Prime Minister of Poland, Donald Tusk, who, of course, used to be president of the European Council, and with its foreign minister, Radek Sikorsky. OK, let's return to my conversation with President Karol Nowrowski of Poland.

16:27You say you've had your criticisms of Europe. I mean, you're a boxer before you're a politician. You're in a fight with Europe, aren't you? I mean, you criticise what Europe wants Poland to do over its judicial system, over its media system. They don't like you and you don't much like them, do you? It is not about liking. I'm not sure if I'm not liked by the European leaders. I hope that this is not the case, ladies and gentlemen, but Poland was joining the European Union to have more freedom and not have more restrictions. Poland is taking advantage of its presence in the European Union, and especially in terms of the economy, in terms of the common market, and this is something we could be taking care of.

17:11I just want to make one point clear. The European Union was established on different foundations, and today it is heading in a totally different direction. In Poland, the most important thing is the constitution of the Republic of Poland. And yes, I am critical if the European Union wants to change the Polish system, if the European Union wants to tell the Polish people what to eat while destroying Polish agriculture. I believe that in a democratic world within the European Union, we can discuss this. So Donald Trump, who endorsed you, said in his national security strategy recently that he was backing patriotic European parties.

17:51Now, you're not in a political party, but you represent the right in Poland. Do you see yourself in alliance with Maloney in Italy, with Le Pen in France, with Orban in Hungary, with the leaders of the AfD in Germany? Do you see yourself as part of a movement trying to change Europe for good? Every politician you have just enumerated is different. If you're asking me whether I can imagine my cooperation with Prime Minister Meloni, I can tell you, yes, we are already cooperating. And for sure, Georgia Meloni is a leader with whom I share many views. I believe that Donald Trump simply, as he was saying in the presidential campaign, America first, and he is carrying out this policy.

18:37It is not a novelty and no discovery from me to see the strategy, national security strategy of the United States. This strategy reflects the words which were said by Donald Trump during his election campaign, and all of us were aware in which direction the United States was heading. So we knew that the United States was going to concentrate on the Western Hemisphere, on the one hand, and on the Pacific on the other hand. We had many years to adapt to that situation, and we are preparing for that situation in Poland, while building our potential and the strength of our military, while defending ourselves also against illegal migrants.

19:12and it is my great hope that Europe is going to return to its roots. This is the task and this is the discussion in which I am participating. So I hope that the European Union will be back to its economic basis. It will cling to its values, Roman, Greek values and also Christian values and I believe this is the discussion we are having. Why Europe is standing today. On that question of values, Trump's document warned of what he called civilizational erasure. You're a politician who ran for office as a man of faith. You said faith and family were the most important things to Poland. Do you believe that Europe, that your country indeed, faces a potential moment of civilizational erasure?

19:59Yes, I'm confident that the return to values both in the Republic of Poland and across Europe is a guarantee of a good future to all of us. The return to good transatlantic relations constructed together with the United States of America and the departure from certain temporarily popular or fashionable ideologies which are harmful to the economy of such countries as Poland and Central European countries and Eastern European countries. Of course, Europe is composed of diverse regions. We are one Europe, but I believe this is the right time and this is something that also Donald Trump pointed out in the United States' national security strategy.

20:35There are countries in Europe which have still not departed from their foundations, and Poland is this kind of country, and now we have to start thinking how to build a common European Union and also how to build relations with the United Kingdom and with other countries on those foundations which were the beginning of the European Union. This is the right direction. You say Poland is this sort of country, but the truth is, politically at least, Poland is deeply divided. You are at war with your government. You don't like the prime minister, he doesn't like you. You don't like the foreign secretary, Radek Sikorsky, who says that you're preparing the political and psychological ground for pole exit, for leaving the EU.

21:20Isn't it a problem for your country if the politicians at the top of it are at war with each other? First of all, that's not true. I'm a president who wants Poland to be part of the European Union, but who also has the right to question a certain ideological madness of the European Union that attempts to undermine the Polish constitution. I want to have free Poland within the European Union. I don't want Poland to be just one of the regions in the European Union. So on this one, Minister Radek Sikorski said something that is not true. It is not also the case. I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic, but it's not that I don't like the prime minister or the Polish foreign minister.

22:01If they hate me, as you just said, this is their problem. I'm looking at their activities only from the perspective of what they are bringing for Poland and what their policy is bringing to Poland. Irrespective of the internal dispute that we are having, these disputes exist in Poland in the United Kingdom and across the world. There are political disputes all over. This is a feature of democracy. As far as security is concerned, as far as the war in Ukraine is concerned, as far as the responsibility of Poland is concerned, in the international arena we stand ready to have an agreement and to represent the Republic of Poland.

22:36So our internal disputes, we are leaving them within the borders of the Republic of Poland. Of course there are a number of issues with which we don't agree, but people can rest assured that Poland stands ready to come together in the international arena. I want to ask you a final question as the historian that you are. Many of us remember of a certain age, the Solidarity Trade Union standing up against the communist regime in Poland. You're from Gdansk, where those shipyards are. Your father, I think, was one of the early protesters against the communist. What's gone wrong in our continent? That that moment of hope that led to the fall in the Berlin Wall is now followed by deep political divides in this continent, a loss of self-confidence, a lack of self-belief.

23:31I think this is a fundamental question that you are posing now. What happened after 1989? There was this great movement on the one hand and on the other hand, the awareness in Europe of the kind of threat that Russia posed for years and for decades. It brought us to this current moment. There have been many mistakes and many errors, and those errors, those mistakes have brought us to the current situation. Of course, I am going to give you an answer which corresponds to the previous bit of our discussion. Simply said, we are departing from certain roots from certain values. We are allowing ourselves to be imposed with certain temporary ideologies.

24:08We are being convinced that these ideologies are more important than the foundations. If we are detaching ourselves, I am speaking about Poland, if we are detaching ourselves from the values which have been a part of our DNA for a thousand years, because Poland is built on Christian values. And if you are trying to impose upon ourselves a new temporary fashion on the most sectors of the economy and education in Poland and in Europe, if they are trying to do all of that, this simply takes Europe to a turning point. So my appeal is, let us go back to our roots. Let us look at our potential. This potential is in our economy.

24:45It's also in our roots around which we are built. and then in front of Europe and in front of the United States in this permanent alliance, there will be a bright future. A beautiful future.

25:18Until the next time, bye for now.

25:48that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists.