Leopoldo Lopez, Venezuelan opposition leader: I am not bitter

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1:28James Menendez:Plus, most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Join 15 million customers internationally. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. Hello, I'm BBC presenter James Menendez and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.

2:10James Menendez:We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Venezuelan opposition leader and activist Leopoldo López at the BBC studios in London. Once the most prominent face of Venezuela's opposition, López is now living in exile in Spain. He spent more than a decade attempting to unseat Nicolás Maduro's authoritarian government and was imprisoned for more than three years, accused of inciting the 2014 anti-government protests. Following the capture and arrest of Maduro by US forces in January, the country's entered a new and uncertain phase, with Vice President Deltis Rodriguez now acting as interim leader.

2:51James Menendez:Leopoldo López talks to us about the prospect of elections in Venezuela, the personal cost of standing up for political change, and what he feels is his greatest personal victory.

3:02Leopoldo Lopez:Our best reply to the regime is that they didn't make us bad people, that we remain to be committed, we remain to be focused on our dream of seeing a free Venezuela. And I have seen other people become very bitter and angry and resentful, and I think they lose, because when you become angry, you become, in a way, a prisoner of a sentiment that doesn't allow you to go forward.

3:32James Menendez:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Leopoldo López.

3:37Leopoldo Lopez:I think that there is a very important change, significant. Maduro is out. Maduro was captured. Maduro is facing justice for his crimes. And that in itself means an important change. There are also changes taking place in the economy. There is an opening to the oil and gas industry. And there is a transition that is yet not a political transition to democracy. So there's things that have changed. We're much better off than what we were in January. but we are not where Venezuelans hope to be, which is in a free, prosperous and democratic Venezuela.

4:16James Menendez:Who's in charge? Is it the United States? I mean, is Venezuela currently effectively an American protectorate?

4:23Leopoldo Lopez:Well, I think Venezuela is under significant influence by the US. And that's very clear. And let me give you some very graphic examples of that. Two weeks after Maduro was captured, the head of the CIA visited Caracas and he was at the presidential palace. then the Secretary of Energy went to Venezuela. The Secretary of Interior went to Venezuela. The commander of the Southern Command went to Caracas in uniform. So that gives you a very graphic description of the level of influence that the US has. They're calling the shots,

4:56James Menendez:effectively.

4:56Leopoldo Lopez:I mean, what Washington says goes. I think in a great deal that is true. Maybe some of the people that are listening to us would say, wow, that's something unacceptable. Well, It's important that we understand where we come from. Five months ago, Venezuela was under the tutelage, not of the U.S., but of Russia, China, Iran and Cuba. So, unfortunately, Venezuela was not exercising its full sovereignty before, and now it's under the influence of the United States, which is something that most Venezuelans appreciate. More than 80 % of Venezuelans appreciate positively the capture of Maduro and the influence of the United States.

5:39James Menendez:So you're happy with that situation for the moment?

5:42Leopoldo Lopez:Well, I am happy that Maduro is removed. I am happy, like most Venezuelans, that there is a window of opportunity. And we are also very conscious that we need to build the path to democracy.

5:55James Menendez:Do you think this Trump administration is interested in democracy in Venezuela?

5:59Leopoldo Lopez:I think the United States inevitably is interested in democracy in Venezuela. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said several times that there is a plan unfolding on three stages. stabilization, economic recovery, and transition. And he has said several times that that transition is to a legitimate government, and that a legitimate government can only take place if there is an election.

6:29James Menendez:So what's the timescale? I mean, what timescale would you like to see for that transition to election?

6:33Leopoldo Lopez:So I think rather than thinking about specific times, so we would like that to have an idea in your mind, I think like many Venezuelans, that it should happen, as soon as it can happen. But then we should talk about what are the conditions for that election. So it's not just about the time for the election, it's what needs to happen. And let me just unpack some of the things that need to happen. One, there needs to be an electoral board, a new electoral board designated that will call for the election. Two, Venezuelans would need to be able to register. There are 10 million Venezuelans living outside our country of a population of 30 million.

7:12Leopoldo Lopez:That is one third of the population that left in the past 10 years. So it's been not just massive, but very, very quick. And those Venezuelans are not registered to vote. At least five to six million of those Venezuelans that are living outside would be eligible to vote. There are millions of young people that were not able to register for the past elections. There needs to be a revision of the electoral system. So things need to happen. before the election takes place. However, the transition to democracy is not just elections. There are other things that need to happen. And in my view, they need to happen now.

7:53Leopoldo Lopez:And I'll mention two of them. One, the opening of the civic space. We were talking before the interview about foreign correspondents not being able to go to Venezuela, like yourself, not being able to get a visa. and this is a sign of a closed society. I think the opening of the civic space needs the opening to the media, to freedom of speech. That is not happening. And at the moment,

8:18James Menendez:would you say that people are not completely free to say what they want? I mean, we've heard reports that people are able to criticise the government and voice their opinions in public more than they were when Maduro was in power, but it's still limited.

8:31Leopoldo Lopez:It's still limited. There is still fear. There are still consequences. There is still censorship. Hundreds of websites are blocked. Hundreds of radio stations were expropriated and closed. There were journalists sent into prison. The laws that criminalize speech are still in place. A law called the hate law that criminalizes speech and gives total arbitrary to the state to incarcerate people for what they say.

9:00James Menendez:Which is essentially what happened to you, right? I mean, that's how they put you in prison.

9:04Leopoldo Lopez:Yeah. Well, I was leading the protest against Maduro in 2014, but because they had nothing against me, they made up a case and it was a case about free speech because what went to trial were my speeches. And because I never called for violence, the judge concluded that I had sent subliminal messages to the Venezuelan people. And on those grounds, I was sentenced to 14 years of imprisonment. So that's where we are coming from, from that level of total arbitrary execution of power.

9:36James Menendez:Can I just ask you one final question about the transition? And it involves Maria Corina Machado, who effectively became the opposition leader. She wasn't allowed to stand in the elections. Somebody else had to stand in her place. Was she betrayed by President Trump over this transition so far? I mean, she's been waiting in the wings for a long time. She looked like the woman who was ready to take over if Maduro was deposed, which he was. And then President Trump said, it's not the right time. Was that a betrayal?

10:07Leopoldo Lopez:I don't think it's a betrayal. It's a decision made by the US of how they wanted to do the transition. But if you were in her place, would you feel betrayed? Well, I don't think it's about feeling betrayed. It's about being focused on what needs to happen. And she's been very clear that Venezuela needs an election. And she's been very clear that that election needs to have conditions, that we need to unify the country around that idea.

10:35James Menendez:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

11:14James Menendez:WISE, the app for international people using money around the globe. With the WISE account, you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups and no hidden fees. Whether you're sending pounds across the pond, spending reals in Rio, or getting paid in dollars for your side gig, you'll get the mid-market exchange rate on every transaction. Plus, most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Join 15 million customers internationally. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. This wasn't the first time I'd met Leopoldo López. When I first went to Venezuela in the early 2000s, he was just starting out on his career.

11:54James Menendez:He was a local mayor and full of energy for the political fight. Well, that was 20 years ago, and I expected some of that energy to have faded now, given his experiences. But somehow it hasn't. He is still full of beans and incredibly doesn't seem bitter about his treatment. OK, let's return to my conversation with Leopoldo López. Thinking about what happened to you and all the others who ended up in prison, political prisoners, and many of whom are still in prison, One aspect of the transition we haven't talked about is re-establishing the rule of law and what happens to those who have committed human rights abuses.

12:32James Menendez:I mean, from a personal point of view, I mean, how angry are you about the way you treated and the length of time that you had to spend in prison and clearly the personal toll that that must have taken on you?

12:43Leopoldo Lopez:No, it's a great question, because I think at least my greatest personal victory is that they didn't make me angry. And this is something that I share with a lot of political prisoners, that although we were victims, although we were tortured, although our freedom was taken away, we are not bitter. We are not angry about... Why not? Well, because...

13:07James Menendez:I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate reaction, right? It's perfectly legitimate,

13:09Leopoldo Lopez:but I think being angry makes you a worse person. And I think that our best reply to the regime is that they didn't make us bad people, that we remain to be committed, that we remain to be focused on our dream of seeing a free Venezuela. And I have seen other people become very bitter and angry and resentful. And I think they lose. Because when you become angry, you become, in a way, a prisoner of a sentiment that doesn't allow you to go forward. It doesn't mean that we don't want justice. Of course, there needs to be justice in Venezuela. But we now understand very clearly that justice is to be imparted by judges, not by politicians.

13:52Leopoldo Lopez:That's one of the important lessons of this 20 years of complete, arbitrary and decay of the rule of law. So what we expect to happen, as it happened in South Africa, in Chile, in Argentina, and in many other transitions, is that there is a path to transitional justice and to truth and to those responsible for having committed crimes against the Venezuelan people will face justice.

14:19James Menendez:What price have you and your family paid, though, for that time you spent in prison, the fact that you had to make your escape from Venezuela and ended up in exile and remain in exile? Yes.

14:30Leopoldo Lopez:Well, I spent seven years in prison, four of them in solitary confinement. Then I escaped and went to the Spanish embassy where I stayed a year and a half and then I escaped and came into exile. But the attacks on my family and myself have remained. Last November, I gave an interview where I supported the buildup of the United States, military pressure and the buildup that led to the capture of Maduro. And the reaction of the regime was that they went into my house in Caracas. They stole absolutely everything, the toys of my kids, the pictures, the family albums, everything. Then they tore the house down, the walls, the ceilings.

15:15Leopoldo Lopez:They killed my dogs. I had two Labrador dogs. And two days after that, they stripped me of my Venezuelan nationality. And this is four months ago. So it's been decades of facing the persecution of the Maduro regime, not just myself, but my family, our movement. We've had over 700 political prisoners from my movement.

15:40James Menendez:So why did you keep doing it? I mean, before you were sent to prison, why, knowing the risks, why did you keep pushing, keep protesting?

15:48Leopoldo Lopez:Because we have a purpose, which is to see a free Venezuela. And we are blessed to wake up every day with a purpose. And I thought about this a lot when I was in prison. I mean, imagine what solitary confinement is. I mean, I invite the people who are listening to us to think of spending, maybe do the exercise, spend 10 minutes without your phone in a room that you don't have books, you don't have anything. And then project that to a day, project that to a week. Week becomes months without anything. It's just you, your thoughts, your internal presence. So I thought a lot about why I was there.

16:28Leopoldo Lopez:And I ended up in prison because I was leading the protest against Maduro for a free Venezuela. So I thought a lot about what freedom means. And it became very clear to me that freedom is not one thing. Freedom is the sum of many things. All of them that have been taken away from me and millions of Venezuelans. The freedom to speak, the freedom to assemble, the freedom to move, the freedom to own property, the freedom to be equal to the law. And all of those freedoms were taken away from us. So for me, it became very clear that all of our fight was for that dream, for a free and democratic Venezuela.