Majid Takht-Ravanchi, Iran’s deputy foreign minister: US giving conflicting signals

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0:30Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:06Hello, I'm Lise Doucette, the BBC's Chief International Correspondent, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister, Majid Takravanchi in Tehran, just as he and the rest of Iran's delegation were preparing to leave for Geneva for Tuesday's indirect talks with the U.S.

1:56Both sides say they're making progress. Pressure has been mounting on Tehran to do a new nuclear deal in exchange for the U.S. lifting at least some of the many sanctions now strangling Iran's economy. We've seen here how Iranians are struggling with soaring inflation and the plummeting value of their currency against the dollar. It's what sparked last month's wave of protests, which were swiftly put down with lethal force. Human rights groups say thousands were killed. And the pain and anger here is still raw. Military pressure has been mounting too. President Trump is threatening to attack if diplomacy doesn't succeed.

2:39A U.S. military buildup in the region continues apace. Iran is also threatening to hit hard if it comes under fire. It's a time of huge uncertainty in Iran. Will there be a nuclear deal or another deadly war? We are hearing mixed signals. Even there has been a talk about regime change. We want diplomacy to be successful. But at the same time, we have to be very cautious. We have to take every precautionary measures that we need to have in order to protect ourselves. We will defend our sovereignty and territorial integrity with all means available to us in case of an attack. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister and Nuclear Negotiator Majad Takht Ravanchi.

3:34Iran described the first round of talks in Oman in early February as a good start. How would you describe them? What did you achieve? Before answering your question, let me say a few words about what has happened in the last eight, nine months. You remember that we were in the middle of discussions and negotiations. We were about to start six rounds of discussions with the Americans in Oman. June last year. Yeah, exactly. That was supposed to be held on June 15th. But on June 13th, early in the morning, we were surprised to see a naked aggression being imposed on Iran by the Israelis, supported by the United States.

4:22And later, the U.S. joined the Israelis in their aggression against Iran. Since then, what has happened? Since then, we have seen an attempt by the Europeans, E3, supported by the United States in New York, to snap back the old resolutions, UN Security Council resolutions. and then after that we have seen the support given to the riots in Iran and after that we have seen a military build-up against Iran in the Persian Gulf and neighboring areas. So we went to the last round of talks in Oman with all these negative developments in mind. So we were not sure whether we would be having a good discussion or a bad discussion.

5:15But our assessment is that the last round was more or less in a positive direction. But as I said, it's too early to judge. We have to wait and see whether the Americans are really interested in resolving this issue through peaceful means. Since that round of talks, there have been messages exchanged. Does this give you greater trust in this process? President Trump says he wants a deal. He prefers a deal. Yeah, we are hearing conflicting signals from America. While we are hearing that they are interested in negotiations, they have said it publicly. They have said it in private conversation through Oman that they are interested to have this matter being resolved through peaceful means.

6:05But at the same time, one can question why the American forces are building up around Iran, why they are using threats, why they are resorting to intimidation. So all these mixed signals give us an alert, give us something that we have to be aware, We have to be cognizant of the fact that one cannot rely on words only. We saw, though, after President Trump met Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu, that President Trump came out and said, I want the negotiations to continue. When you see that, does that give you greater confidence? You know, that was a message which was received here. But as I said, you are hearing mixed signals.

6:52Even there has been a talk about regime change. I mean, if you are interested in a regime change, you cannot have it, you know, through diplomatic means. If you are interested in a regime change, so don't talk about diplomacy. We prefer diplomacy. We want diplomacy to be successful. But at the same time, we have to be very cautious. We have to take every precautionary measures that we need to have in order to protect ourselves. We will defend our sovereignty and territorial integrity with all means available to us in case of an attack. We hear that you have made that message very clear through your partners in the region, that while you took care last time in your attacks, for example, on the U.S.

7:46military base in Qatar, that you did not want to kill any Americans. Now you've made it clear that they could be a target. There's 40 ,000, more than 40 ,000 American soldiers posted right across the region. Their lives could now be at risk? First, we want to stress the fact that we are not interested in war. We do not want war to happen in this neighbourhood. But if it does happen? If it does happen, I mean, we will reciprocate. We will reciprocate when we are attacked. And those who have attacked us will bear the responsibility. Those will be hit. So it's a different game this time. It is a different game.

8:21The whole region will be in mess. Why do we need a war? Why do we need a war while we can resolve this matter through peaceful means? And we believe that. We can do it. We believe that we can resolve the matter through peaceful means and through talks and negotiations, provided that both sides do not ask for extraneous issues to be included in the talks. don't, I mean, both sides agree that they want to have a win-win solution. Both sides have to bear in mind the fact that there is no military solution to this. We believe that there is no military solution to the current problem with regard to the Iranian nuclear file.

9:07You use the word extraneous. I think by that you mean that you only wanted to focus on the nuclear file, not on your ballistic missiles, not on your activities across the region. Is that correct? You know, we have said time and again that the only topic for agenda between Iran and the United States is the nuclear issue. And we are ready to engage seriously, with all honesty, with the United States to resolve this matter through peaceful means. And we believe that there is a way out for this, provided that the Americans do not want to include other issues, whether it is missile or other issues.

9:46Missiles are part of our defensive capabilities. We do not compromise on our defensive capabilities, as no other country does the same. In the messages that you have exchanged with the United States, does it seem to you that they are ready in this first phase to just focus on nuclear? Yes, our understanding is that they have come to this conclusion that if we want to have a deal, we have to focus on the nuclear issue. And the President of the United States has already said so, that the only topic for discussions is the nuclear issue. You have long experience in negotiating, including the last nuclear deal, which concluded in 2015, which President Trump pulled out of.

10:32I know you can't reveal all of your negotiations, but various compromises have been discussed that you would suspend nuclear enrichment. We heard from your atomic energy chief says that you would dilute your highly enriched uranium, 60 % near weapons grade, if all sanctions were lifted. Is that in the mix now possible compromises to reach a deal? Yeah, we are ready to engage seriously in the discussions. And when it comes to that point that everybody, I mean, both sides feel that they have to do something, they have to gain something in return of something from the other side. I think that is the moment that one can say that, OK, we are moving in a direction of having an agreement.

11:20So in case of, for instance, Iranian stockpile, we have to... The highly enriched... Highly enriched uranium. More than 400 kilograms. Yes. We have to know if Iran gives up that material, which, as you said, that will be in the area of diluting them, what would be the price for that? So you're willing to discuss this? We are ready to discuss this and other issues related to our program, provided that they are ready also to talk about the sanctions. Because sanctions, as we call it, illegal sanctions, you know, those sanctions have to be also on the table. One cannot accept the notion that Iran has to do certain things without the other side committing itself to do their share.

12:05So it has to be a give and take. That is what compromise is all about. You do something and you get something in return. So they have to also be prepared to engage seriously in terms of, you know, termination of the sanctions. All sanctions? Some. Let's discuss. Let's discuss what sanctions we are talking about. And we are ready to engage with them to see what Iran should do and what the other side should do. We hear some reports that the U.S. has moved away from its demand that you have zero nuclear enrichment. Have they accepted? As far as we are concerned, zero enrichment is not on the table.

12:43You know, we have paid a huge price for our enrichment activities. You know, we have tolerated a lot. A war of aggression was imposed on us. Our scientists, our top generals have been martyred as a result of, you know, not only related to this specific issue, but the whole nuclear program in which enrichment is an important part and parcel of our nuclear activities. So we have paid a lot for this. how can we forget all these sufferings that we have had? Therefore, enrichment is an essential part of any negotiations with regard to the nuclear issue. You sound as though progress is being made. Are you optimistic a deal can be reached?

13:35It is too early to say whether we will reach an agreement. But as I said, the first round was more or less a good one, a good start. and let's see what will happen down the road. President Trump says he thinks it could be possible within a month. Is that possible, that timeline? I really don't know. We are not bound by artificial deadline. I mean, if you ask anybody who has been engaged in serious negotiations across the world, putting artificial deadline is a disservice to the whole exercise. So that is why we should remind ourselves that instead of putting artificial deadline, we have to show that we are serious.

14:20And if they are serious, why not? Maybe in a matter of one month we can get the job done, at least the principles guiding an agreement. But to say that we are bound by one month, which cannot be 100 % proved that it's really needed, maybe it takes more than one month, maybe it takes less than one month, but in actual negotiations across the world, we have seen that more time is needed to go into the details of every issue at hand. Therefore, while we take the matter seriously, while we are in serious efforts to resolve this matter through peaceful means, I mean, it is not really wise to say that we have to get the job done in a specific period of time.

15:31powered by world-class research and ambitious young talent. From bold startups to established powerhouses, Poland offers the momentum, resources and reliability you need to take your business further. Poland, where businesses don't just grow, they're built to last. Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. America is changing and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet.

16:14Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

16:22I'm Lise Doucette, and I've been speaking with Iran's deputy foreign minister and top nuclear negotiator, Majid Takravanchi. Ravanchi. I first met him more than a decade ago during the talks which led to the landmark 2015 nuclear accord President Trump pulled out of in his first term. It was in this latest conversation that I began to sense that there was a growing chance that diplomacy would work. It was the way he spoke of Iran's readiness to compromise as long as those painful sanctions were lifted. Let's return to my conversation with Majid Takravanchi. President Trump's latest remark says that regime change would be a very good thing to see in Iran.

17:07When you hear that, what do you think? Is that what it's all about? No, that is a clear example of a mixed signal that I was referring to. But what do they tell you in the private messages? What do you listen to, what he says publicly or privately? No, we are not hearing these slogans in the private conversation. That I can tell you. He's made it clear that if the diplomacy doesn't succeed, it will be very traumatic for Iran, the war, and that the American military might is building in the region. Would that battle be existential for Iran? It will be traumatic. Existential? Bad for everybody. It is not as if that Iran will suffer only.

17:58Everybody will suffer, particularly those who have initiated this aggression. If we feel that this is an existential threat, we will respond accordingly. Do you feel it is an existential threat that's building? A battle for survival? I really don't know. I prefer not to comment on this because it is not wise even to think about such a very dangerous scenario. Because if we come to that point, therefore the whole region will be in mess. And we do not want to see that happening. And is that why the Arab leaders have been on the phone? You've been on the phone to them. They've been on the phone to President Trump, telling him don't go for military action because the region would suffer immensely?

18:53I mean, we have been in close contact with our neighbours, with our friends in the neighbourhood. And it is very interesting that we see almost a unanimous voice in our region against the war. And that is a very interesting development. It is as if that the whole region is calling for peace and only a few countries are calling for war. And that speaks volumes, that this region is fed up with war and conflicts. Therefore, it is best to use other avenues for resolving issues through peaceful means. And we think that they will come to their senses and even not to think of military option because military option is not a viable option.

19:42President Trump, as you say, he gives different messages, but one of the messages he's also given is that he wants to help the protesters. Your ambassadors around the world have been called in to respond to what were described as the horrific reports of violence during your security crackdown. How much does this impact your broader diplomacy? You mean broader diplomacy? In the sense of Iran's place in the world to have these kind of accounts, these kinds of complaints against the Islamic Republic of Iran? I'm sure that you have heard our officials explaining the situation where for the 7-10 days we had peaceful demonstrations with not much violence happening.

20:31But after, you know, seven, ten days, we saw what has happened. And, you know, violent activities were, you know, were very high. And rioters were doing whatever they could. And in the midst of this, we heard President Trump saying that, you know, go and take the institutions. Health is on their way. Health is on their way. So it seems to us that this is an incitement to violence. In terms of our engagement with other countries, we are having normal relations with other countries. But they haven't accepted your account. They have said you should have allowed people to express a call for their basic rights and freedoms without fear of reprisals.

21:24No, we are talking about violent activities in which peaceful demonstrators were also hit and killed. But we make a distinction between peaceful demonstrations and violent activities. With peaceful demonstrations, they have every right, those who are engaged in peaceful demonstrations, They have every right to express their views, their opinions on different issues, whether domestic issues or foreign issues of Iran. But when it comes to violence, nobody tolerates violence. In America, the U.S. government does not allow even for a person to touch a weapon against a police officer, let alone using the weapon against a police officer.

22:21So we are talking about violent activities which cannot be tolerated. We are not talking about peaceful demonstrations which are allowed under our Constitution and that the people can express themselves. Minister Takhtarabanchi, as we speak, is it your feeling that Iran is on the brink of a breakthrough in diplomacy or another war? We are hopeful. We are hopeful that we can get the job done through peaceful means. Although one cannot be 100 % sure. That is why we have made every measures, precautionary measures, to be alert, not to be surprised again, and not to use any chance to defend ourselves.

23:10So it's a mixed feeling. While we are heading towards negotiations, while we think that we should promote diplomacy, as we always do, at the same time, we have to be aware of any attempt by our adversaries, by our enemies that are trying to hit us. That is why, while we are moving in the direction of diplomacy, at the same time, we will do whatever we can to protect ourselves and our brave armed forces personnel are doing their greatest in order to defend the homeland. So possibly a deal is within reach. How long it will take, but it is within reach? We are, at least from our side, we can say that we are hopeful.

24:04At the same time, we do our best. But the other side has to prove that they are also sincere. Well, it's Marco Rubio said President Trump prefers a deal, but he said it's hard to get, very hard to get a deal with Iran. He says it's up to you. No, the ball is in America's court. I mean, they have to prove that they want to have a deal with us. And if there is a sincerity, if we see a sincerity on their part, I'm sure that we will be on a road to have an agreement.

24:38Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the Mayor of Kiev, Vitaly Klitschko, geopolitical expert Professor Helen Thompson, and Colombia's President Gustavo Petro. Until the next time, goodbye for now.

25:17Over 30 years, Poland has been a launchpad for innovation at the heart of Europe, powered by world-class research and ambitious young talent. From bold startups to established powerhouses, Poland offers the momentum, resources and reliability you need to take your business further. Poland, where businesses don't just grow, they're built to last. Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. America is changing and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C.

25:54I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.