Malala Yousafzai, global education campaigner: I did not know who I was

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0:30Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Medina Meshanou, BBC presenter, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service.

1:18The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met Malala Yousafzai. global education activist in Abuja, Nigeria. You are going to hear her personal story. She tells me about the impact of the dramatic events of her teenage years, her advocacy for girls' education, and the assassination attempt which nearly killed her, but also how these came to define her in the public eye and left her struggling to find her own identity.

2:18Activism is my mission, she says, but I am human just like anyone else. She speaks openly about her mental health and seeking therapy and about improving her relationship with her mother but also the joy of friendship, playing golf and becoming a reckless student. Malala's tireless campaigning on the right of all girls to an education continues and remains the goal that drives her work. This is something, you know, like I always think about like what is it that keeps a girl out of school? That is a question that keeps me up at night. People do not understand that education for girls is actually connected to everything that we are talking about right now, whether that is addressing extreme poverty or extremism or inequality.

3:04We cannot talk about all of these issues without talking about girls' education. Girls' education has been proven to be one of the best investments in the future of a country, the future of the world. So I think we need to shift the way we think about girls' education. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Malala Yousafzai. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me as this brave, courageous young activist. But I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. So, you know, my exposure to media, to public life has really sort of limited the way I could express myself.

3:49activism is my lifelong mission and that will continue to be a part of my life but there's always more to a person than just that and um yeah you know it's like you know you you in the end are a human just like anybody else you want to make friends you want to feel loved you want you know you want to have that support around you so your story is one that is very touching, one that almost everyone in the world knows, when you were shot at 15 by the Taliban, and that must have impacted your childhood. Would you say that subsequently fame also impacted your childhood? I think it was a bit of everything.

4:30At 15, when I was recovered from the attack, I started school in the UK in a completely new country. I actually really struggled to make friends. By the end of my school time, I just had made one friend. So when I was about to join university, I had one mission, and that was to make as many friends as I could, because friends also help you grow as a person. It is part of the emotional growth. So I'm so lucky to say right now that I have made a lot of friends, and they have helped me in difficult moments in, you know, from handling SA crisis to just have moments of laughter to also being there with each other when we have gone through tough moments.

5:17But why did you struggle to make friends? Was it the fame? I think it's because people think that they know you. They have heard about you on TV. So they have this fixed image of you. And that image of mine is that of like this brave Malala who survived the Taliban's attack at age 15. And it was this gap of having a normal conversation that I couldn't get. Because like in Pakistan, of course, I was, you know, a normal girl. I was mischievous sometimes. I had a lot of friends. I loved to talk about anything. And what I wanted was that you can be an activist, but you could also be yourself. And this is something that I missed on when I was in the school days, but I had to like relearn and reconnect with all of that later on in my college time.

6:10You've recently written a new book, which is yet to be released. It's called Finding My Way. And that title just seems very personal. What does it mean to you? Yes, this is the most personal reflections I have ever shared before. I talk about my school years which were lonely. I talk about my college life where I decided to become more of a reckless student. I have become more of a sports person right now. I'm doing quite good at golf. I talk about friendships and love life and at the same time mental health because that is something that affected me many, many years later after the attack. So I have been very open in expressing my feelings and I help the readers walk through the journey with me.

6:53This is in a way me reintroducing myself. You speak about your mental health a lot and you also mentioned many times that you go to therapy. How has therapy helped you? Actually, I started therapy seven, eight years later after the attack because when I survived the physical injuries, I thought this is it. This is what recovery means. And, you know, if you heal from one bullet, like you don't need a conversation about therapy and how do you feel. But many years later, I realized how the trauma, the flashbacks, everything just got triggered and they all came back. And it broke me down because if you don't address it on time, it can completely break you down when it comes to you all at once.

7:41So my perspective on mental health has completely changed now. It was actually my university friend who recommended that I should see a therapist because in the beginning I thought nobody could understand me. My situation is just so different. But I had a few sessions with a therapist and I realized, okay, like this, this is something I should have been having much, much earlier. And I thought the therapist could like maybe fix it in one session. I thought she would write some medication, but no, I think it's about conversation. It's about processing what you're going through and learning that this is now a part of you, but the effect of it on you gets smaller and smaller when you face it, when you talk about it.

8:26So yes, therapy is now part of my journey. You once mentioned that your mom was very strict when you were growing up. You didn't have the easiest relationship. How is your relationship with her now? My mom and I are becoming friends now. I think it's still a work in progress. I fully understand why my mom was strict growing up because she had a very different childhood than mine. Girls at her time were not allowed to go to school. They were told off for, you know, the clothes they were wearing, or if, you know, they were told like to stay inside their houses. They could not have fun or anything.

9:04They could not play outside as soon as they became like teenagers. So for my mom, it was always about keep your daughter restricted and so that she does not get into trouble. So my mom had that intention in mind. So she would always say, what would your cousins think? What would your family members think if you wear jeans or if you wear non-traditional Pakistani dresses? so for her like I had to still represent my culture and and and like my people and I said like mom like I'm just like still a student like in college like everybody wears jeans like it's completely fine it's still a modest dress and and I want to like be like any other student I don't want to stand out in my traditional clothing but we would always have these arguments it was always a topic about something, but I knew she always had a good intention.

9:58We still argue about things, but that is part of the mother-daughter relationship. She seems very conservative, I would say. But for a mom that was very conservative like yours, how did she handle you coming out at 11 to champion for girl-child education? So my mom is conservative more in the in the dress style and, you know, like don't talk to boys and all of that. But she is a very brave woman and she herself was like supporting me and my dad in our activism. She never told us not to speak out because she knew that education is a way to help girls have a better future. Like she herself saved so many friends in Pakistan.

10:48There was like one friend of mine who was still like, you know, 11 or 12 years old. And my mom like saved her life because she was raped. And my mom helped her to get an abortion. And when I think back, like, yes, like my mom is like, if you debate with her, she might give you a different opinion. But in terms of her action, She is about saving girls' lives. She is about giving them a better future. Right. Everything you've been through, your journey when you were shot and the Malala of today, do you think it's all worth it? This is a tough question to address because I usually would say that I wish I was in the old life.

11:33I wish I could have continued my life in Pakistan. But when I think about how things took a turn, and now that I'm able to lead a movement for girls' education, and we are able to work together with incredible partners, like here in Nigeria, when I look at these incredible organizations, like a dozen of them who are leading change for girls, then I'm like, you know, whatever the circumstances, this pathway is rewarding. and I do not want to look back. I do not want to change it for a second because of the change that today we can make for girls. But what keeps you going through everything? I remember my meetings with girls.

12:17Girls are so determined for their education. I have met girls in Nigeria. I have met girls who were abducted by the Boko Haram who escaped from that. I have met girls in Pakistan, in Iraq, in Brazil. I met Palestinian girls and when I look at their determination how they know they do not need to be told, they know that education is a pathway to a better, safer future for them I know that we are doing the right thing so girls are my hope, they are my inspiration

12:55You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service people shaping our world from all over the world.

13:29Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to global education activist Malala Yousufzai.

14:16She was in Nigeria with Malala Fund, her organisation, working to ensure an education for girls. Nigeria has the highest number of out-of-school children in the world. When Malala arrived at our Abuja Bureau, she was immediately warm and accommodating, far more approachable than the serious image many see on TV. She lit up when we talked about her as a person, sharing glimpses of her life that really make it into the public eye. When I asked her about how fun she seems on Instagram, she laughed and said she's even more fun in real life. It was a reminder that behind the global figure is someone genuinely human and deeply relatable.

14:56Okay, let's return to my conversation with Malala Yousafzai. People expect you to be an activist. So would you personally consider yourself as an activist or a politician? I think for me, like, it's about advocating for a safer future for children. It's about every girl having the right to school. And that is the mission of my life. I promote that in everything that I do, whether that is the work through Malala Fund, which is a nonprofit that works in many countries, and whether that is something like storytelling or sports and all of these things that I'm doing. For me, it's about how do we create more opportunities.

15:36But if you look at the world and if there's a war going on, if there's conflict, if there's a genocide going on, millions of children lose their future, and we cannot look away from that. So for me, it's bringing attention to these crises, these situations that children, that women face and being there for them. Like, you know, the change that we want to bring will not become a reality if we look away from the catastrophe, from the disasters that are happening right now. So let's move on to some global issues now, Malala. In the past, you've spoken a lot about Gaza and you've also provided school supplies for children in Gaza.

16:12And you recently just come in from Egypt where you met with Palestinian refugees. In your opinion, do you think that is enough to make an impact? I think for as long as we witness a genocide happening in Gaza, everything we're doing is not enough. But I do believe that we should be doing what we can. It does not mean we give up on taking action. And for me, that is about uplifting the voices of Palestinian people and then support the local organizations who are helping Palestinians in Gaza and also in the neighboring countries, the Palestinians who have become refugees. And that's exactly what I did.

16:51We have been supporting these organizations for the past two years now. And I recently visited the projects of one of the organizations called Inara. And in Egypt, I went to their programs. They are providing education, mental health support, and they're helping the families. They're doing surgeries for these children who have lost their limbs and who have been going through such trauma. They're helping them through mental health program. It just broke my heart to see what these children have witnessed. But these incredible organizations are doing everything to help these children get out of the severe trauma that they have faced, give them this hope that they deserve to have a life in dignity.

17:35And through their education, these Palestinian children are hoping that they can one day be living a normal life and they can be having a future. So in Pakistan, the Taliban are making a comeback, especially in some regions where women and children are being killed. What do you have to say on that? From the very start, when the Taliban took control of Afghanistan, I made it very clear that countries standing up to the Taliban and protecting the right of women and girls is not just important for women and girls in Afghanistan, but this is important for women and girls in the neighboring countries and women and girls everywhere.

18:16Women's rights in Afghanistan should be treated as an issue of women's rights everywhere. You're very right that the reappearance of the Taliban in parts of Pakistan is very concerning. And I fear about the education of girls in Afghanistan and in parts of Pakistan as well, because it's been very clear. We have seen what the Taliban believe in for more than two decades now. The Taliban do not believe in girls' education. They do not believe in women's rights. They have issued more than 100 decrease in edicts in Afghanistan, limiting women from the right to work, the right to education. And I hope that countries actually and leaders, including Pakistan, can stand up and protect the right to education for girls.

18:57They can protect the rights of women. How do you stay hopeful for the future of education for girls? It is the activism of Afghan women, of other women activists in Pakistan everywhere that gives me hope. because women and girls are not giving up. When I look at how different organizations and women activists are providing education through alternative platforms like radio, television, underground secret schools, I know that they are unstoppable. They will find a way to keep girls educated, to ensure that girls do not lose a future. But at the same time, they need support. They need more solidarity.

19:39Afghan women are also leading a campaign to push countries to hold the Taliban accountable. We need more pressure. It's been four years, and it seems like the world is just using words, but they're not really taking action against the Taliban. We need to go beyond just condemning them. And one thing they're asking for is to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid and that it should be codified in the international law so that perpetrators like the Taliban can be held accountable. And at the same time, we can have better protection for women's rights in every country. You know, globally, we've seen some progress.

20:21And then we started seeing regression when it comes to out of school girls. What are the major steps that you think need to be taken to address this issue? This is something, you know, like I always think about, like what is it that keeps a girl out of school? Like that is a question that keeps me up at night. But for that, the most powerful way is to work with local education activists because the challenges are so different in each part of the world. And then even within a country, it's different if you're working in the north or south or even within one city, it could be a completely different environment.

20:57So you are very right. Education has been treated as a side issue. People do not understand that education for girls is actually connected to everything that we are talking about right now, whether that is addressing extreme poverty or extremism or inequality. We cannot talk about all of these issues without talking about girls' education. Girls' education has been proven to be one of the best investments in the future of a country, the future of the world. So I think we need to shift the way we think about girls' education. It is connected with other issues. Even in Nigeria, people have been talking about child marriage, forced marriages, and our activists are advocating how, along with the policy changes to prevent child marriage, we also have to invest in their quality education because education promises a better future for girls.

21:50And the longer a girl can stay in school, she is safer from being exposed to child marriage. How can we get them back into school? So this is one of the things that Malala Fund is working on together with our local education partners, where we talk about re-enrollment into schools for like teenage pregnant mothers so they can like never miss the opportunity of losing their education. And at the same time, I think it's about like financing and just bringing in the resources to make sure that there are good schools, good teaching, the wash facilities, the hygiene support, all of that. Because if we don't talk about these problems, it's hard for a girl to be in school if the school does not have any of these facilities from teaching to hygiene and all of that.

22:35So I think, you know, sometimes people think it's culture or if it's this socioeconomic thing. I think we cannot really separate the two. I believe that we have to talk about the socioeconomic side of things because let's start with that. Let's provide schools. Let's provide good teachers. Let's make sure it has the facilities because that in a way also addresses these things that we think are cultural norms. In places where we have provided good quality education, the child marriage has dropped down itself because parents, of course, want their daughters to be in school in many places. It's just that they go through a lot of hardships and they do not have the facilities or they do not have the money to actually afford the child's education.

23:17So, Malala, apart from Afghanistan, where the Taliban has basically banned young girls from going to school, we've seen a surge in books being banned, even in countries like the U.S. Why do you think education is such a threat to people? Education is very powerful. And when education is controlled or when books get banned or when people are promoting one specific ideology through it or when they sort of limit it, I don't think it remains education anymore. It becomes indoctrination. So we need to make a distinction between that. And at the same time, it just reminds us of how important it is that we give the skills of critical thinking to our children.

24:00We expose them to different ideas, to different concepts so that they can make decisions for themselves, that they're more aware and they can have the skills to make a future for themselves. I think all of these things are like the backbone of the societies that we want to create. So I hope that it brings people together to really think about the education that we promise to children everywhere and that we think about the 120 million girls who do not have access to education, they do not have schools, and how we can create a world where education is a right and education is given to every child and it is a quality and safe education.

24:46Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. including episodes with American President Donald Trump, Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations Amina Mohamed and tennis great Martina Navratilova. Until the next time, bye for now.

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25:53In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. you