María Corina Machado, Venezuelan opposition leader: ‘our fight for freedom is a fight for peace’

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm BBC presenter Lucy Hawkins and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me. For this interview, I met Maria Karina Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader in the Norwegian capital, Oslo, shortly after she made a surprise appearance on the balcony of the Grand Hotel.

2:06She's been in hiding since the 2024 presidential election, when incumbent Nicolás Maduro declared victory in a contest that was widely dismissed on the international stage as rigged, sparking protests across the country. Around 2 ,000 people were arrested in the crackdown which followed, among them many members of her opposition coalition. Machado, who had managed to unite the bitterly divided opposition ahead of the election, went into hiding for fear of arrest. The last time she was seen in public was in January, when she spoke to her supporters at a rally protesting against the swearing-in of Maduro to a third term as president.

2:42She has, however, continued to give interviews and uploaded videos to social media, urging her followers not to give up. The Nobel Institute awarded Machado the 2025 Peace Prize for her struggle to achieve a just and peaceful transition from dictatorship to democracy in Venezuela. Ms Machado's daughter accepted the award on her mother's behalf at the ceremony, leading to some concerns about the whereabouts of the Venezuelan opposition leader. However, having managed to defy a travel ban, Maria Carina reached Oslo, where she met with Jorgen Friednes, chairman of the Nobel Committee, who described her journey as a situation of extreme danger.

3:20He joined Ms Machado for this exclusive interview, where she spoke about the challenges facing Venezuelans today. Venezuela has turned into a nation, a country, in which the state applies terrorism. The regime that has control of all institutions has applied state terrorism towards innocent people and committed crimes against humanity. and everybody that dares to speak out to defend any of your basic rights takes a huge risk and probably ends in prison. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Maria Karina Machado. Maria Karina Machado and Jorgen Fritos, thank you for joining us.

4:09Congratulations on your Nobel Peace Prize. And you are now here. How do you feel? I am. First of all, I'm very grateful, of course, to the Norwegian Committee, the novel, because of this unique recognition to the Venezuelan people that has brought so much hope and enthusiasm and even further unity in our country. and I'm still trying to believe that I'm here in Oslo at last with all of you and with my family which I had not seen for a very long time. How was that to not just see your family but to hug them and to smell them and to touch them again? Well for over 16 months I haven't been able to hug or touch anyone so it certainly has been a very profound sentiment suddenly in a matter of a few hours to be able to see the people I love most in their eyes and touch them and cry together and pray together then I had a chance to meet also with hundreds of Venezuelan people that are outside the hotel and to feel that, you know, warm one again after such a long time.

5:33It's, you know, it's the reason why I do what I do. It's because I trust the people. And they've given you things. Oh, yes. You know, these just were given to me by Venezuelans that were outside, and it's always the same gesture. People take their rosaries from their own neck and they put it on me and they have stories. One of the women outside told me, Jorg, that actually I think it's this one, that she has brought it with her 20 years ago when she left Venezuela and now that she wanted me to have it. So imagine all the energy that this brings to me. I think I have over 7 ,000 or 8 ,000 groceries that I've received all around Venezuela.

6:20And Jorgen, how is it for you right now that it's actually happened because there were moments this morning where we weren't sure whether we would be sitting here together. Well, not only speaking on my own behalf, but behalf of the committee, and I would say the people here, Venezuelans, Norwegians, many, many more. It's emotional having you here after that journey, but to have you finally here, having your daughter representing you in the best way in Oslo City Hall today, but then in the middle of the night to have you here it's incredible it's hard to describe with words what it means to the noble committee and to all of us you must be so proud of your daughter today oh i've been proud of her all her life and i my sons as well you know they have taken a really hard part of all this struggle now when when they graduated because i had to send them out of the country.

7:19They didn't want to leave, but I forced them to go because I couldn't do my job and at the same time protect them. So, you know, they were the only ones in their classes at graduation to be without their mother. And she married, I wasn't with her. And my son just married, I wasn't with him. So it gives me a big sense of guilt, but at the same time, I have so much support from them. And there's a reason why I do it, as well as all of the children, which I today feel are my own as well. So I'm very proud of all of them because for what they do and they have done for this cause. I have to ask you about the version of the story that is now widely circulating about your escape.

8:12It's being talked about here in Oslo. It's in some press as well that you had to wear a wig, a disguise. You went through 10 military checkpoints, a fishing boat to Guirazal, a private jet, Miami to Oslo. What can you tell us about what must have been a frightening and dangerous escape from Venezuela? Well, it's important to understand exactly what you're saying. I mean, Venezuela has turned into a nation, a country, in which the state applies terrorism. The regime that has control of all institutions has applied state terrorism towards innocent people and committed crimes against humanity. And everybody that dares to speak out, to defend any of your basic rights, takes a huge risk and probably ends in prison.

9:04As you said in your incredible speech this morning, Jordan, just for posting news about the Nobel Prize, you will get in prison. And if they go looking for you and they don't find you in your house, they will take your family, even children, in prison. so they had say that I'm a terrorist that I have to be you know in jail for the rest of my life and they're looking for me so certainly leaving Venezuela today in these circumstances is very very dangerous so I just want to say today that I'm here because many men and women risked their lives in order for me to arrive in Oslo. And I came here on behalf of them and the millions of anonymous Venezuelan heroes to receive the prize and to take it back to them because it's theirs.

10:15You arrived with nothing, no luggage, just the clothes that we see you in. Well, this actually was the clothes I was wearing in that last part of the trip. if I haven't had a chance to even take him back. Look, what time is it? It's 20 past 3 in the morning, I can tell you. What about the next thing for you, though? Because you know that the Venezuelan government is now calling you a fugitive, that you will be arrested if you go back. Do you intend to go back to Venezuela? Of course I'm going back to Venezuela. The Venezuelan government would have disappeared me if they found me when I was in Venezuela.

10:54and I know exactly the risks I'm taking. And what I've said to the Venezuelan people from the beginning is I'm going to be in the place where I am more useful for our costs. And until a very short time ago, the place where I thought I had to be was Venezuela. The place where I believe I have to be today on behalf of our costs is Oslo. Have you had any conversations with anyone, whether it be Marco Rubio, President Trump, anyone who has given you some assurances about your safety? Well, I'm not going to answer that question for obvious reasons. But I have to say that we are very grateful to President Trump and his administration, because I believe that what we have said for years, trying the world to understand what was happening in Venezuela in terms of the build-up of a criminal structure that had destroyed every single right, humiliating people, dividing society, and giving away our sovereignty to criminal organizations.

12:08And this is something that has an impact beyond our frontiers. You know, look what's happening in Venezuela in terms of the destabilization that regime has generated in whole Latin America and now even the United States. So we had said for years we need to address this regime not as a conventional dictatorship, but as a criminal structure. And the incentives aren't the same. And from a perspective of law enforcement approach, I believe that finally that it's taken place. And I think the world has finally understood that what we are doing is to save lives. You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world.

12:59If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

14:09For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Maria Carina Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader. We waited all day. Our interview with Maria Carina was scheduled for first thing in the morning. There was huge concern when the Nobel Committee told us she was not only not in Oslo, they didn't know where she was. It was a long 17-hour wait in the Nobel suite in Oslo's Grand Hotel, liaising with Maria Karina's people and hoping that the interview would still happen. When she finally walked through the door, she shook my hand, apologised for the clothes she was wearing, the only clothes she had on her, and strode out onto the famous balcony to wave to the hundreds of supporters gathered outside.

14:50It was 2.30 in the morning and we breathed a massive sigh of relief that this exclusive interview would happen. She seemed exhausted, emotional but jubilant once again to be in the company of her family and friends. She was warm and energised and relieved when I offered to help her with her make-up, which had come off after all the exuberant embraces that she'd received from the crowd outside the hotel. OK, let's return to my conversation with Maria Karina Machado. You do have, though we understand, quite a close relationship with Marco Rubio. He is a big admirer of yours. Has he told you, has the US told you to be ready?

15:26to have a plan so that you could take over, take charge. We need to be ready regardless of what we are told by anyone. Are you ready? We are ready. And we are ready not only because we have the teams and the plans for the first 100 hours and the next 100 days, putting always the people in the centre, because that's how we got here. And I have so much trust in what we have learned as a society, that even though it's going to be a really, really complex process, because the regime certainly has destroyed all institutions, and we have crisis, financial crisis, a security crisis, an economic crisis, a humanitarian crisis.

16:13but there's this consciousness that we have fought so hard to conquer freedom that the society is going to care for it. And I know people understand that we're going to go through really hard moments, that we're going to have to work together really hard, that not all problems will be solved immediately, but we will feel in our bodies and in our souls what it means to be free again. One of the important things that you've promised though is justice, particularly because there have been crimes, as you say, committed against many people in Venezuela. And that includes Nicolas Maduro. So is there a compromise that you would be prepared to make around his future in order that he leave?

17:04Maduro has been offered throughout these years numerous possibilities to leave power in a peaceful way. When we won the election 16 months ago by a landslide, we offered a possibility of a negotiated transition. He not only rejected it, but decided to unleash the worst repression wave we've seen in our history. We're talking about over 2 ,500 people detained, among them children, women that were tortured, abused. What does this mean for his future? What would be acceptable for you? Well, so what I'm saying is that afterwards we offered many other possibilities, you know, throughout all this time,

18:03and offer guarantees. They rejected it. And I believe it's not only because of his own position, but you have to understand that there are mafia groups, criminal groups that have, you know, confronting interests today. So some of them are, you know, pushing back Maduro from accepting that this is probably his last opportunity. So what is that opportunity? Would you accept a deal whereby he went into exile somewhere that he didn't face justice? Look, it's absolutely inconvenient to mention concrete options. What I say will depend on how we get to that negotiation process, if we do. Because if he refuses, then he understands that he will be in a much difficult situation in which he is right now.

19:02So it is a moment for him absolutely to go, to understand that this is serious, not only on behalf of the Venezuelan people, organized and pressing and united. It's also in the military and the police in which there are real fractures as we speak. And also the international community, which is finally putting a lot of pressure on Maduro. I mean, you mentioned the moment, and that is how it feels for so many, and particularly now that you have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the momentum that that gives your cause. But we also know about the American military ships that are, of course, outside of Venezuela, very close, what has been happening there.

19:42But also President Trump has talked about the possibility of strikes on Venezuelan soil. And it is difficult sometimes with President Trump to figure out exactly what it is that he means. But is that something that you would support, a U.S. military strike on Venezuelan soil? Look, President Trump has offered Maduro, and he has said it publicly several times, to go through a peaceful process to dismantle the criminal structure and has insisted that the criminal activities have to stop, which has not happened on the country. So we didn't want a war. We didn't look for it. The Venezuelan people want to live in democracy and freedom, justice.

20:33It was Maduro who declared a war on the Venezuelan people with state terrorism and abroad with narco-terrorism. But is that a reluctant yes then, that you would support that? What we have asked, and I've been very insistent in this, is the international community to help us stop the flows of resources, criminal resources, which are used by the regime for repression of the Venezuelan people, innocent Venezuelans. Where those resources come from? Drug trafficking, coal trafficking, even human trafficking. and many of these resources end up in the financial systems of democracies in Latin America or in Europe.

21:22And what we're asking, what we have asked is we need to cut those inflows. And a very important part of those resources come from the drug activities. So we clearly believe that an international coalition to dismantle this industry should be put in place, not only by the United States. I wanted to ask you again about President Trump, because the US is so important. You know that he can be unpredictable, that he can vacillate, he can sometimes change his mind. At this moment, when if we think back to when Maduro came to power, people said he's not going to last six months. He is still. What if right now President Trump's attention goes elsewhere and nothing happens?

22:06Despite all this momentum, despite all this hope that people have that you've seen tonight outside, what if nothing changes? Things have already changed. Venezuela is not the same country that we were two years ago. We have never seen a people so united, organized, and decided to go until the end. We have never seen the regime as weak as it is today. And we've never seen the international community so determined. Why? Because this is not only about Venezuelan lives. This has to do with the national security of the United States and other countries in the Western Hemisphere. Venezuelan migration has turned into the largest one in the world.

22:56The day Maduro goes, you will see millions coming back. That's what everybody said outside. I want to go back home now. The day Maduro goes, we're going to turn Venezuela from the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub of the Americas. We will build a security shield. We will force agents from other authoritarian regimes like Russia or Iran or Hezbollah that operate freely in our country in partnership with Maduro. We're going to get them out of our country. So from every perspective, it is something that is crucial for the United States and the region. But just finally, have you been given any assurances by President Trump, by the U.S., by anyone, that there is going to be this change that you talk of that will give people that hope that it is going to happen now?

23:51My assurances come from within, because I know my country. I know our people. Venezuela will be free. And it will be the biggest historic moment in the Americas in a very long time. I mean, this will have, you know, waves of democratization in the region. We will see Cuba. We will see Nicaragua. We will see other countries that already are looking at us and say, how have you done this? Because they have told us all the time that it was going to be impossible. It was going to be impossible to unite the country, impossible to defeat Maduro, absolutely impossible to prove it. It was going to be impossible for me to be here tonight with you.

24:35So we're going to make it that possible. And I think that this will be also a huge contribution to humanity. Because at the end, our fight for freedom, it's a fight for peace. And it is an act of love, as I said today.

24:57Thank you for listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with US President Donald Trump, education campaigner Malala Yousafzai and Brazilian President Luisa Nassio Luna da Silva. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:14And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.