María Fernanda Espinosa, UN secretary general candidate: The UN risks becoming irrelevant

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1:52For this episode, I speak to Maria Fernanda Espinosa, Ecuador's former foreign minister and a candidate to become the first woman secretary general of the United Nations. She is seeking to lead the UN as it faces severe financial pressure and questions about its influence over major conflicts. Espinosa believes the organization remains essential but risks becoming irrelevant unless it changes how it works, describing the choice facing the UN as reform, transform or die. Because the UN will exist, will continue to exist. And I believe that the UN is irreplaceable. But it is a metaphorical death in a way.

2:37Metaphorical because it would mean that the UN is not relevant anymore, that the UN is not performing its duties, that it's not complying with a charter that is not doing what it's supposed to do. And as I said, the initial phrase of the UN is basically to protect future generations from the scourge of war. That's what we are about. And in doing so, we need to protect the people, especially the most vulnerable, the people that are suffering conflict and hunger and lack of access to health services and to a life with dignity.

3:21Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Maria Fernanda Espinosa. The UN hasn't lost its purpose, hasn't lost what triggered a charter that was written after the Second World War saying the role of the UN is to prevent conflict and protect people. This continues to be true. However, because of the complexity of the world, because of the number of active conflicts, because of the trends in global poverty and inequalities, what the UN needs to do is, number one, adapt to these new realities, adapt to a changing world that is not the one that we had 80 years ago, and really make sure that it delivers for people on the ground and it responds to the people on the ground.

4:17And let me give you an example. We know that about 300 million people plus require humanitarian support as of today. And yet the organization, because of financial hurdles, but also because of a capacity to be where it's needed. No, we are providing humanitarian relief to less than 80 million people. And believe me, every day the number goes up. So if we are not able to prevent conflict, that's the core of my vision statement. No, we will be always short of resources and of capacity to respond to the humanitarian needs of the world. And that's why I said an issue of credibility. You know, the outside world sometimes looks at the UN coming too little, too late, the UN not being part of the negotiation table where it matters.

5:22And when I say that, it's not that I want to criticize the UN. I'm convinced that the UN is irreplaceable. it's the most incredible human creation but we need to make it better we need to make it more fit for purpose more responding to the world of today and you talk of the adjustments that need to be done for this organization which you say was created to address the challenges of 80 years ago there are newer challenges today and you have said that the United Nations should reform, transform or die what would reforming the United Nations look like? The word reform can mean different things to different people.

6:07For some, reform can be this band-aid approach to a little bit here and a little bit there, improve incrementally the UN does business. And that's fair enough. There are things that need to be done that way. But what I am seeing, but it's not my only, you know, my personal view on things. I have really listened, especially before putting my name forward, before being a candidate, listening to people, listening even to UN staff members, listening to member states. what is that they feel it's missing. And what it's missing is a new business model for the UN, more modern, more impact-driven, more result-oriented.

6:58Sometimes we measure the impact of the UN by the number of reports. And actually, the UN produces around 800 reports per year. And I would ask even very well-informed people like you, how many of those 1 ,800 reports you read, the people read, even, you know, the world of diplomacy, about the 3 ,000 plus meetings that the UN holds. And sometimes we confuse activity with impact. And here, I think the way we measure impact and we measure results should be different. How many lives has the UN saved? How many people has the UN helped to live out of poverty? How many people have we prevented from conflict?

7:51How many people were we able to support side-by-side member states in state building and democratic strengthening, for example? So these are the ways of measuring. If you want to measure, if you want to change the incentives, if you want to have a real culture of accountability that includes the UN staff, that includes the Secretary General, that's what I mean by a new business model, a business model that is based on accountability, that is based on transparency, that is based on real, real impact on the ground. And for that, of course, the little baby steps on improving how we budget, on improving how we do evaluation and monitoring, how we do performance evaluation for our own staff in order to have incentives for them to look at the UN as a career path, you know, a way as you arrive there, you park yourself and then it's status quo.

8:55But on the contrary, a mission-oriented, inspired staff. And I think that there is a lot of work to do to change the institutional culture, to change the way we do business. And when I say or die, frankly, it's a way of saying it because the UN will exist, will continue to exist. And I believe that the UN is irreplaceable. But it is a metaphorical death in a way, metaphorical because it would mean that the UN is not relevant anymore, that the UN is not performing its duties, that it's not complying with the charter, and that it's not doing what it's supposed to do. And as I said, the initial phrase of the UN is basically to protect future generations from the scourge of war.

9:53That's what we are about. And in doing so, we need to protect the people, especially the most vulnerable, the people that are suffering conflict and hunger and lack of access to health services and to a life with dignity. On finance, how would you deal with the current UN financial crisis when so many donors have withdrawn funding? I think I often say that the financial crisis of the UN is not a lack of money, not because the world has plenty of money. And we know that. I think that what it shows is it's a symptom of a deeper political and credibility crisis. And that's what we need to fix. And it's fixed, first of all, proving that the UN is able to deliver better, is able to have a better impact, is able to reduce costs in very heavy bureaucratic processes and be more impact in outcome driven.

11:04No, that's the first issue. The second issue is when I look at the contributions from member states, as of today, 72 countries have not paid their dues out of 193. This is a message beyond blaming or shaming, but it is a message. And the message for a Secretary General is you need a new financing agreement, a recommitment to the UN from the side of member states. And that is done through personal engagement of the Secretary General with each one of the 72 member states. and really listen and hear what they want to see from the UN. How is that the UN can better respond to their needs and expectations?

11:58How to make sure that countries, they can see and perceive value for money. How they can report back to their parliaments, to their people. We are investing in the UN because that is what we get. That is good for us. On the question of credibility, how has the UN lost credibility? In what ways? When you see what is happening in the world of today, basically what makes the headlines is where the UN is not doing that well or where the UN is absent. You don't see headlines on the UN doing its work every day. If you go to a refugee camp, if you go to a zone of war, the UN is there. And that's the reality.

12:47We are present. We are the first respondents. And yet we are not the only game in town. One of the challenges of the UN in the future would be how to really build organic, durable partnerships. with national and regional organizations, with civil society that are all in the business of protecting people, for example. And that's where we see that we have a long way to go. And of course, you said the issue of credibility. In the main conflicts of the world of today, you don't see a lot of the UN. You don't see the UN being featured as being one of the parties that is mediating a conflict that is present on the ground at the high level political engagement front.

13:52You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Anne Soi.

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14:51Maria Fernanda Espanosa is one of four women hoping to become the next United Nations Secretary General an organization that has only ever been led by men since its inception in 1945. She exudes confidence in her abilities and experience. In 2018, she became the first woman from Latin America and the Caribbean to be elected president of the UN General Assembly. A politician, diplomat and poet, she says the global body must change course or die. Throughout the interview, she tempers her critique with optimism that the United Nations can still reclaim its leadership role in dealing with global crisis.

15:31Okay, let's return to my conversation with Maria Fernanda Espinosa. On Gaza, a Board of Peace has been created to do what some critics say the UN should have been doing. Is this an example where you think that the UN has lost credibility? And how would you go about rebuilding that, reclaiming that? First of all, I think that the UN, as I said, the international environment has changed. You see many strong regional actors, especially in the peace and security field. Regions are more engaged. The African Union is an example with its own Peace and Security Council, for example. You see individual countries mediating.

16:22Some countries have even decided that their foreign policy priority should be about making peace and mediation, such as countries like Qatar. And you see in the current war in Iran, you see key players such as Pakistan playing a very, Pakistan and Qatar and Turkey playing a very important role in mediation. I'm not saying here that the UN should be everywhere at all times, but the UN should be part at the table. In supporting roles sometimes, not a first role at other times when it's required and needed, but the UN being present, a secretary general offering her good offices constantly and permanently, be on call 24-7, being present systematically, predictably, where it matters.

17:18In Gaza, the UN was present. ANRWA was on the ground. But what we saw was the constant criticism from Israel, for example. Is this an example of where the UN, in your view, lost credibility? I would say no. I think the people know around the world that the UN is on the ground, that the UN is providing humanitarian relief. And there, I would say what we need to ensure is that international humanitarian law is fully respected, that issues of access are guaranteed. so the UN is there, is present, is one of the places where there is, I would say, acknowledgement of the important role that the UN plays, not only there, but in many other conflicts of the world.

18:11And of course, this has to be better communicated. One of the weaknesses of the UN, I would say, is how and when we communicate the work that it's been done. But also it goes through leadership. It goes through who represents the UN. In this case, the Secretary General being actively engaged, being on the ground, being more present, being available, being persistent. Because in the business of peacemaking, the issue of persistence is, I think, of utmost importance. You say the question of financial challenges down to the credibility or the loss of credibility by the UN. But what we're seeing around the world, and especially in the traditional donor countries, is that they are directing a lot of money that was previously earmarked for aid that is now being sent to defense.

19:15It's the reality of the world today. How would you deal with that then, even if you rebuild the credibility of this institution whose credibility, you say, has been eroded? How would you convince those countries to allocate more money for the UN? Well, in the world of today, I think that, first of all, it's what you just described is happening. The sharp decrease in ODA, Overseas Development Assistance, is really meaningful. It is a message. I think if you look at the OECD data, you see an increase going down. Last year it was, I think, 25-27%. This year it is projected to even go lower. and what we need to do is different things.

20:13First of all, developing countries need investment, need opportunities, need an international financial system that will deliver for them. In there, what you need is, for the most vulnerable countries, access to concessional funding, access to cheaper capital because the cost of money goes up when you're more vulnerable. Let me ask you, just finally, let me ask you about the question of women leadership in such a critical organization. There are four women in this race. The UN has never had a woman in that top job. Why do you think it has taken so long? I think that I am very reluctant to simply say it is the turn for a woman.

21:09It has to be a woman. My answer to that, it has to be the right woman. The woman that has a proven record in all the areas of work of the UN that has experience and a track record on areas of peace and security, on areas of development, on areas of human rights altogether. You need a Renaissance candidate. You need the right woman for the job. Of course, in the bench, in the field of candidates that we see, we see all this talent coming together. So the message is that we cannot say that we do not have the right candidates or the right qualifications. But we need a strong leader for the UN. It is obvious that the options are at the table, that there are many good candidates, and it is about time.

22:09It is not only about historical justice. It is about really saying if we want a transformation, if we want a change that the UN so badly needs, there is an opportunity for women to show that we can make the difference. And why would you be the best candidate for this role? I have often said that I am an insider outsider. That's a big advantage. I have known and worked in relation to the UN for more than 30 years, unconsciously, but I have prepared myself during my entire professional career to reach the position that I am in now as a candidate. I'm a 360 candidate. No, and just before, I have never worked for the UN.

23:06I know every corner of the UN, being ambassador in Geneva, an ambassador in New York, foreign minister, minister of defense, president of the General Assembly. I know every single corner of the UN, and I have never worked for the UN. I think that gives me enough space and enough distance to understand what are the changes that need to be done at the UN. I always say also I'm a 360 candidate. I'm a candidate and I know all the files of the UN. I have gone through the three pillars. Being in Geneva, for example, I understood and worked directly with a whole human rights architecture, which is extremely complicated serving at the Human Rights Council in New York.

23:53I served a more political body of the UN as an ambassador, as president, I brought the House together to make decisions, the hardest decisions in times of division. In this 360 perspective of the UN also equips me to make sure that changes are made, that transformation happens in all fronts of the UN, the way that the organization delivers and honors the first phrase of the UN Charter serving with the peoples. Many thanks for speaking to us and we wish you the very best.

24:38Thank you for listening to the interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including a conversation with Russia's nuclear envoy Mikhail Ulyanov, as well as interviews with UNICEF's chief, Catherine Russell, and many others. Until next time, bye for now.

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