Michel Barnier, chief EU Brexit negotiator: We need to be together in a fragile world

0:00Michel Barnier:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

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1:13Michel Barnier:Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, I'm Katia Adler, the BBC's Europe editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out for the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust.

1:48Katya Adler:These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.

1:51Michel Barnier:This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Michel Barnier. He served as the EU's chief negotiator when the UK voted to leave the EU 10 years ago. On the 23rd of June 2016, the UK held a referendum to decide its future with the European Union. More than 33.5 million people voted, and by 52 to 48 percent, the decision was to leave the bloc. Barnier, who had already been a European commissioner and had previously served as a minister in a number of French governments, was selected to represent the EU during negotiations to establish the terms of the UK's departure from the bloc and a future relationship between the two parties.

2:40Michel Barnier:It was a tense, difficult and extremely long process, with the UK seeing three different prime ministers in 10 Downing Street from the original vote in 2016, right through to the country formally leaving the EU in January 2020. A decade on from that vote, better known as Brexit, Britain exiting from the EU, Monsieur Barnier reflects on the UK's decision and on how both European and international politics have changed since.

3:09Katya Adler:We didn't change because of the Brexit. We changed because there is a new situation, the COVID crisis, the migration crisis, the financial crisis beginning in 2008, with many consequences until to now, because of the new aggressivity of the President of the United States against the Union, the military aggression of the Russians against the European country, Ukraine. So this is the reason why we change.

3:39Michel Barnier:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Michel Barnier in a conversation I recorded shortly before the 10-year anniversary of the UK's vote to leave the European Union. If you look back 10 years and to those long Brexit negotiations, what do you most remember? Brexit was a school of patience.

4:00Katya Adler:The very important souvenir I keep today is the length of these negotiations and the difficulties are inside the domestic politics of the UK, in particular for Mrs May to obtain, to get the majority on what she has negotiated in Brussels.

4:24Michel Barnier:You seemed very strict with the UK at the time. You were famous for being very strict and saying Brexit is Brexit.

4:31Katya Adler:Strict, but never aggressive. Always respectful. The rules. Because my mandate was very strict to defend the EU interests, to defend the integrity of single market, which was and which is and will remain non-negotiable.

4:51Michel Barnier:So, when you say that, you were very kind of hard-line, I think, that the UK felt on not cherry-picking. It was seen as…

5:02Katya Adler:The Brexit itself put us on the hard line because the choice of the UK, the sovereign choice of the UK was the UK government was not only to leave the EU, but also to leave the single market and to leave the custom union, to leave everything. I think 600 bilateral agreements have to be unraveled. 600. So this is our line.

5:33Michel Barnier:And what do you think now, 10 years later, when you have the government saying, we want to get closer to the European Union again, we want to get rid of the red tape after Brexit, and we want business relations to be much, much, much closer, as well as defence and other things. Do you think great or do you think here we go again?

5:54Katya Adler:We welcome, sincerely, we welcome any project or any request to have closer relations. But it cannot be at the detriment of the single market. It cannot be conducted to this new negotiation or new relationship to be a kind of cherry picking in single market. No way. No way. Because the single market is our main asset. And this is the reason why I still do not understand why the UK decided to leave the single market. Because it is a common asset. It was a common asset with the UK. But we cannot put the single market under risk. We need to keep and to consolidate this main asset for us, in particular in the global world where we are.

6:44Katya Adler:We saw much aggressivity from the US on the trade issues, but also from China and also the aggression of Russia. We are in a much more dangerous, unstable, fragile world, and we need to keep our assets and to keep our unity. This is the point for us. There is no aggressivity, no spirit of revenge with the UK. But the UK must understand that it will not be possible to unravel or to fragilise the single market.

7:17Michel Barnier:But isn't it because of the more dangerous world that we live in now, isn't it in the EU's interest to have the UK closer, the UK economy? I mean, defence, we'll talk about it in a minute as well. But in these new circumstances, shouldn't the EU be more flexible and say you want to be closer to us economically? Great. That's in our interest and your interest. But freedom of movement for the UK is it's that red line, isn't it?

7:44Katya Adler:The indivisibility of the four freedoms are a red line for us. It's not new and it will remain the case. We cannot unravel and fragilise the single market. And the UK knows this point very clearly from the very beginning. So it's a no. There is no way to fragilise the single market. And once again, the UK was not obliged to leave the single market. it was not obliged to leave the custom union. Norway is outside of the union, the choice of Norway not to be included in the union, European Union, but their choice was to be part of the single market in their interest, in our interest. And this door is still open.

8:32Michel Barnier:But in these new times that we live in, that you're talking about as well, these geopolitically difficult times, doesn't the EU need to show more flexibility for example there's talk about it's not new talk you'll know that of a two-tier Europe where even inside the EU some member states work together more closely on some aspects whether it's migration or whatever and others choose not to but also working together with powers outside the European Union who are close allies Norway for example the United Kingdom, Canada, Japan. I mean, these are new times we're coming in.

9:11Katya Adler:Yes, but because of this new time, we need to be united and strong. And it will be weaknesses for us to unravel or to fragilize the single market because of this new time. So this is the point. So we can take the risk. And let me add that in many of our countries, we have our farage Mrs. Le Pen or Mr. Bardella in France from the far right are some kind of French farage. There is many farage in Europe who want to destroy us. No way. No way.

9:48Michel Barnier:I want to come back to that in a minute. But what I was wondering is, in these 10 years since Brexit, the EU has changed a lot. Immediately after Brexit in 2016, there was talk about Frexit, France leaving, Dexit, Denmark leaving, Italexit, Italy leaving. That didn't actually happen in the end. And now when you look at the more nationalist parties on the right and the far left, actually, in Europe as well, people are rarely calling to leave the European Union. So how much of a turning point for the EU was Brexit, would you say?

10:25Katya Adler:One point is true. The EU today is far to be the same that in 2016 when the UK decided to leave. And we have changed and we continue to change. And my regret is that it would be very totally possible for the UK to remain and to change with us.

10:46Michel Barnier:So what is the new EU then?

10:49Katya Adler:There is more voluntarism, more engagement, for instance, to borrow together and to invest together in the future. what we did after the COVID crisis. We have borrowed together for the very first time 750 billion euros to invest in the future and the new technologies and the economy. So we are much more engaged for not never a European army, but for a common defense policy and to build a more stronger European pillar in the framework of NATO. So there is a lot of change because of the situation around us. But that is the reason also why I think that our main asset as Europeans remains a single market, which is much more than a free trade zone.

11:44Katya Adler:This is perhaps the paradox or the misunderstanding with the UK. The single market we have built together with the UK during 40 or 45 years is much more than a free trade zone. It is a kind of ecosystem, a comprehensive ecosystem with common regulation, common standards, perhaps too many, common supervisions and a common jurisdiction, the Court of Justice. So it is our main asset. And it will remain no way to fragilise this legal market.

12:21Michel Barnier:I'd like to go back to what I asked earlier. Do you think that Brexit was a turning point for the European Union? Do you think that other countries took a lesson from how Brexit was turning out for the UK or the negotiations? I think the European Union changed afterwards.

12:39Katya Adler:We didn't change because of the Brexit. We changed because there is a new situation, the COVID crisis, the migration crisis, the financial crisis beginning in 2008. with many consequences until to now, because of the war in Ukraine, because of the new aggressivity, unusual aggressivity of the president of the United States against the Union, the aggression, the military aggression of the Russians against the European country, Ukraine. So this is the reason why we change, not because of Brexit. Brexit is in the book. It's over for us. It's in the past.

13:18Michel Barnier:In the past. And what I noticed during the Brexit negotiations is that there was a certain shock amongst member states who'd looked at the United Kingdom and thought it was very politically, very stable, very strong. And, you know, the UK voted for Brexit and then had an internal crisis. So I noticed a difference, I think, that you had the Freedom Party in Austria or Le Pen here in France or Salvini. The people who had been calling to leave the EU, they stopped asking for that.

13:51Katya Adler:Because they look at the negotiation. They look at the trouble in the UK. They look at the consequences of Brexit. And so they are much more present in their slogans. But I do not think that it changed their mind. For instance, in France, I think that Mrs Le Pen or the far right is still on the same line against Europe. They are and they remain nationalists. And the reason why I fight against them, I don't need any lesson from their side. But in addition, I'm European because of the world around us.

14:29Michel Barnier:You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

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15:26Michel Barnier:But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more So cut the bull spend Advertise on LinkedIn The network that works for you Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a$250 credit for the next one Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

16:14Michel Barnier:Michel Barnier was the EU's chief negotiator throughout the years of often bitter Brexit talks. He's still a big cheese in French politics, a centre-right MP who was briefly PM, Prime Minister, two years ago, and is expected to throw his hat into the ring in the country's upcoming presidential election. I met Mr Barnier at his compact office adjacent to the French Parliament in an elegant corner of Paris. His attitude essentially is that 10 years after Brexit, the EU must take the outstretched hand of whomever the UK puts on the dance floor to represent them in new negotiations to reset the relationship in economic terms, not just in defence.

16:54Michel Barnier:Right, let's return to my conversation with Michel Barnier. How do you explain a kind of a fascinating thing that we see in opinion polls for the European Union now is that after Brexit, after Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, in public opinion polls, the European Union is more popular now than it's been since the late 80s amongst the public. But at the same time, more Eurosceptic parties across Europe are also very popular. So is that a contradiction?

17:28Katya Adler:No, but that means that we need to be vigilant and prudent about the popular feeling. But what I saw in the UK, Farage, with many lies, and the other, Johnson, used the popular sentiment against Brussels as a scapegoat. But in reality, many problems are still there. Not enough jobs in the industry, not enough jobs in agriculture, not enough public services for health or for transportation. So that means that in all and every country, we need to tackle the problem, to address the problem, to find solutions at the right level. and all the solutions are not in Brussels. Contradictory what these populists said.

18:25Katya Adler:Part of the solutions are in Brussels and the reason why we need to change what must be needed to be changed in Brussels and we are big in this change. But many of the solutions are at the national level and even at the regional or local level. So the point is that in any case the political leaders need to find the right solution at the right level.

18:51Michel Barnier:I mean, you painted a picture of the EU today being one that's involved in even bigger projects together than ever before. Like you say, common borrowing, for example, like they did at the time of COVID. And France would like to have more common borrowing now on other issues as well. But at the same time, this is a European Union that is quite sceptical about pooling too many resources in Brussels. People across Europe say, we don't want so much Brussels in our lives. We want to be more independent. You're coming up to a big presidential election here in France, and the RN, the party on the hard nationalist right, have better chances than ever before of getting their candidate to become French president.

19:33Michel Barnier:How would that change the EU?

19:35Katya Adler:I think that independently of the increase of the extreme right or the far right everywhere, where we need to address the problems of the people, the daily problems. And I think the main change in Brussels must be for the European leaders and for the Commission and for the European Parliament to address the big and the most serious problem, security, migrations, trade negotiations, and to spend less time on the daily life of the people. We need to have less bureaucracy or technocracy in Brussels. It's perfectly possible remaining together and to change what needs to be changed in Brussels. And it is the way where we are.

20:23Michel Barnier:When it comes to the French presidential election, do you think that the hard right will win or is very likely to win?