Michelle Bachelet, UN Chief candidate: Time for a woman to lead

0:00James Copnall:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:52James Copnall:Hello, I'm James Cotnell, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. the best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is a war to end. For this interview, I met Michelle Bachelet, the former president of Chile and one of the world's most prominent human rights advocates. Bachelet made history as Chile's first woman president, serving two terms before going on to become the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

1:42James Copnall:Now, she's one of the candidates vying to become the next Secretary General of the United Nations, a position that has never been held by a woman since the organisation was founded in 1945. The Secretary-General is appointed by the UN General Assembly on the recommendation of the Security Council, where the five permanent members – the US, UK, France, Russia and China, collectively known as the P5 – wield significant influence over the process. With the UN facing growing pressure to reform, Bachert says the organisation needs to adapt to a changing world, become more effective and better reflect the people and countries it represents.

2:25James Copnall:She also argues that it is time for a woman to lead the United Nations after eight decades in which the top job has been held exclusively by men and why she believes the organisation needs reform. There's a lot of lack of trust in the organisation. I've been in New York meeting with many member states and many feel lack of power, lack of power because they're small. They don't like the veto in the Security Council. They feel that that paralyzes. But this is reality. The reality is that we have five current members that do have veto power. But you need to work always, I would say, to identify what are the areas where you can find certain common agreements.

3:08because one of the worst things that can happen is that the UN and the multilateral system loses completely relevance because that's, of course, that's the worst that can happen to the planet and to the world.

3:23James Copnall:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Michelle Bachelet. First of all, I have to say that I've always understood public service as a responsibility, not as a position or a title. And I believe that in this moment, in this period of time, the United Nations is more necessary than ever. We're living through a period of geopolitical tensions, conflict, inequalities, climate change, and a lot of lack of trust in institutions. So what the UN needs is somebody with experience that can be able to dialogue with different parties, with perspectives that have experience also in working with many different countries and not be aligned with one particular nation, with one particular alliance and with one particular ideology or religion, etc.

4:13So I do believe that I have the experience, I have the capability, the competence and the commitment and that I will be impartial and I will be neutral. And that's what the UN needs and the world needs.

4:28James Copnall:I'm curious to see what you think of the role itself, because for many, UN Secretary General is someone who has a megaphone, but perhaps needs a pistol. You can talk, but you have very little power. Well, the truth is that there is this old discussion, James. I don't know if you know it. Even from 2016, when there was another discussion, who will be the next Secretary General, is whether we should be a Secretary or a General. Because the Charter says that it is sort of the chief co-administrator of the organization. I do believe it has to be, of course, a very good co-administrator. But on the other hand, I would say, using sort of my knowledge on defense issues, it should be a general in terms of that somebody who has had to be on the ground when it's needed, when it matters, who had to be very active and very present in all dialogue, who can try to prevent conflict from happening.

5:27You have to ensure that the Secretary General can play a better role. Of course, the Secretary General is not the boss of the United Nations. It cannot impose to member states certain agreements, but it can play a lot of activities in terms of good offices, mediation, always build bridges, create spaces so countries could talk or either maintain the spaces when countries don't want to talk to each other.

5:54James Copnall:I suppose another way of looking at that question is who in the past, which secretary general do you think has done a good job? I believe that you cannot compare because I think the world today is probably the one who is living under the most difficult geopolitical situation. So it's not comparable the world in the past when member states believe clearly in multilateralism on today's world, when there are very powerful countries who don't believe in multilateralism, when many countries today consider that confrontation is better than cooperation. So I think the world today is much more difficult than in the past.

6:33James Copnall:If one of the challenges today is taking on powerful nations that don't believe in a multilateral approach, how could you confront America, say, or Russia, perhaps even China, when you would be required to get their approval to get the job? I have been, and I think many people who know me and who have seen me, not only in UN Women, but particularly as High Commission of Human Rights, that I really believe in independence, impartiality and neutrality. And I think that that's the only possibility that we can reveal trust in the organisation because there's a lot of lack of trust in the organisation.

7:14I've been in New York meeting with many member states and many feel very lack of power, lack of power because they're small. They don't like the veto in the Security Council. They feel that that paralyzes. But this is reality. The reality is that we have five current members that do have veto power. But you need to work always, I would say, a light to the charter. But on the other hand, try to identify what are the areas where you can find certain common agreements. And you can advance, maybe not to progress all you want, but you can advance. And I do believe that this is difficult today because I don't even know today how much possible it is an agreement between the P5s.

8:01Because the situation is very, it's a lot of tensions. But I do believe that there are some areas where that has been possible in the past and not so long ago. And I am somebody who is always optimistic because one of the worst things that can happen is that the UN and the multilateral system loses completely relevance. Because that's, of course, that's the worst that can happen to the planet and to the world. You talk of a lack of trust among many of the member nations of the UN.

8:30James Copnall:is part of that intimately connected right now to what's happening in Gaza where for example much of the General Assembly would take quite a tough line on Israel but the Security Council or at least certain members of it permanent members certainly do not want to. Is Gaza going to be central to the work of whoever becomes the next Secretary General? Indeed I think Gaza is a terrible example of how we have failed as the national community. And the fact is that there was not a possibility of the UN to have an answer, a timely answer, that would avoid so many deaths, particularly women and children killed and so many injured and gas are destroyed completely.

9:14So I think this should be something that we always need to take into consideration to feel how we can not continue doing these kind of things, how we learn the lessons on how we have to stop paralyzing the areas where you can make decisions that can go and produce a result that can be more positive. I think there are other experiences as well in the world that shows that when the organization fails, it's people who suffers.

9:44James Copnall:So if you were Secretary General, how would things be different? Or would you simply be constrained by the same institutional setting as your predecessor? I mean, it's different to deal with Gaza now than to deal with Gaza in the past when things were acute. Because of course, now it's supposed to be a ceasefire, but still many people have been killed there. I think one of the things that the Secretary General should do is sit down with the P5 and sit down with the Security Council, but also a new Secretary General, I think, needs to have a huge, strong support from all the General Assembly as well, because sometimes the priorities of the Security Council makes it impossible to advance.

10:30And then you need also a very strong General Assembly that can help find solutions on this. So I would sit down with the P5, convince them to do better and also with other members of Security Council, but also with other member states. I mean, I don't know what has happened with the World of Peace. I mean, I heard it's creation. I haven't seen if there's any results on that yet. And as I said before, that was a resolution of the Security Council. It was not just a one country decision, but we need, if some instrument are created, to have results because otherwise there will be lack of trust, completely lack of trust in institutions.

11:11James Copnall:Would you be then in favour of a profound restructuring reform of the United Nations? Yes, indeed. Indeed. What I believe needs to be looked at is if the areas where we're going to reform, we're going to reduce, etc., are the strategic ones. Because it is not about only saving money. It's about ensuring that where you put the resources is where you can have real impact and results, where your mandates will be really achieves what your objectives are. And then you need to be more strategic. It's not like, for example, cutting every department on 10 percent or 20 percent. It's about saying, look, which are the main pillars that we really need to maintain?

11:56And the other thing that I want to say, if you want to reform, yes, reform at the headquarters, but don't reduce the capacity, the muscle, if I would say, at the ground, because we need the UN at the ground doing what needs to be done, working with member states, working with communities, working with the private sector to ensure that your objectives will feel fulfilled. So I am completely for. On the other hand, you haven't asked me that yet, but I guess it comes afterwards. Would I believe in a reform of Security Council? Yes, I think the Security Council must be reformed. Would it be possible?

12:33Well, I'm sure that probably the P5 would not accept some of the changes that some countries would love to see, like eliminate the veto and among other things. But I do believe there are some appetites, some appetites to change some things. And at least I think the Security Council should better represent the world today. It was created in a different era, in a different world, and now it should be represented and it should have more representation of underrepresented areas or regions or countries.

13:08James Copnall:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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14:01James Copnall:And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Michelle Bachelet turned on the charm during our chat. She has a sort of down-to-earth, approachable manner that must have served her well when she ran for office in Chile. But the depth of her political experience and her convictions as someone who's fought for human rights all her life were on show too.

14:38James Copnall:Now her challenge is to make those attributes count on the global stage. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Michelle Bachelet. Looking back through your career, one key thread appears to be human rights, clearly, and also a concern for the poor in society. Some of your policies as a president in terms of education or income were very much directed towards the poorest segments of society. Are those concerns that a Secretary General of the United Nations could and should take on? Indeed. Even though the world has improved so much, if we compare to the last century, there's still so much pending issues.

15:22I mean, hunger, poverty is still very rampant. And of course, you have a lot of inequalities. And many of the things that can be fantastic for humanity, like the good use of artificial intelligence, probably due to the inequalities between countries and inside countries. It could increase inequalities. So at the one hand, you have to deal with the most, if I would say, frontier issues that are really important today, like all the things of technology, artificial intelligence, and of course, climate change, among others, hunger, poverty, ensuring that the opportunities for young people. But we are having a commission with the World Bank, co-sharing with the president of Singapore, on how we can create jobs.

16:10Because we believe that in the future, there will be like, you know, 1 ,300 ,000 ,000 young people in Africa, additional, I'd say. And you will have like 400 million with work, your 400 million study, and the rest will be nothing, without any perspective, without any possibilities. And they need to have education. They need to have jobs. They need to have hope. Otherwise, we will have, again, social unrest. And we need to ensure that all those young people in Africa that have so many potential, if you are able to support them, do have the support, the education, the health, but also the jobs they need to ensure that they can be a contribution to their countries.

16:56James Copnall:I wanted to ask about one of the very last things you did as UN Human Rights Commissioner, 2022. You released a report on claims of abuse against Uyghur Muslims and other ethnic minorities in China. You accused China, or the report accused China of serious human rights violations. You were criticized for going too far and for not going far enough, depending on who was criticizing you, and praised too in other quarters as well. But I wonder what that experience told you about the United Nations and perhaps about the type of Secretary General that you would want to become? Well, I have to tell you, I have to do a lot of reports that not only that one that you mentioned, but also on settlements and of course on the war in Ukraine and also on other reports on violation of human rights, Belarus and other places and everywhere also on African descent, and police brutality that I know that some countries have not liked.

18:01But that shows who I am. I'm somebody who does the job that needs to be done. That's the job where I have a mandate on, and I will do it in a way independently, in a serious way, and the most professional way as well, but in a neutral way, but also I will do what needs to be done. And I'm not scared. I don't have fear of doing what needs to be done. That's my whole life. I've done life with dictatorship. I was in jail because of that, but it's okay. That was part of the job. I've been supporting democracy my whole life. And I will continue doing that because I believe that the Secretary General, for example, should be there, should be speaking out when it's needed.

18:47because I believe the Secretary General needs to be a moral voice, that I believe the world needs a moral voice that do not accept things that are unacceptable, do not normalize things that are not normal, and that people will feel, if I would say, they're not alone because that Secretary General, hopefully the women from Latin America, is somebody who will be there, maybe not having all the capacities and all the instruments to do things immediately, but it will be there and they will not be, it never left alone.

19:21James Copnall:Is the UN, the institution, its member states, ready to elect a woman, do you think? It's never happened before. I hope so. Why? What would have changed, do you think? Because I hope so, because I believe that, yes, in 2016, there were like eight female candidates and they were not selected at the end. This is not an election, it's a selection. But I hope so, because 80 years, we're only men there. And I think women, it's not about women because being a woman. That's not the idea. The idea is a woman because it has the experience, the leadership, the capacity, the knowledge, the ability to do things that needs to be done, to build bridges, to dialogue, to try to find common grounds, to have the resilience, the patience, but the strength at the same time to look for better outcomes.

20:15So I hope that that will be something that members that could understand that it will be fantastic. But to be honest, I'm not sure that every country are ready for that. But I hope so, because I always use the saying of Desmond Tutu, that I'm a prisoner of hope or a hostage of hope. If you lose hope, if you give up, that's not what the world needs.

20:39James Copnall:How has the world changed for women in positions of power and aspiring to positions of power in the time that you've been in the forefront of the international scene, some decades now? Well, I see two things. I say that on one hand, women have advanced, have been able to get into positions of power in different levels, in the political field, of course, in the social field, also at the private sector. But on the other hand, what I've seen in the international community and particularly in the multilateral relations zone is certain backlash. For example, you see resolutions of the UN that never speak about gender, that the word gender disappeared.

21:22Even women are not much considered in some resolution. Of course, a resolution about women particularly, yes, but in general resolutions. So there are areas where there are intense attempts from some countries to go backwards. And I think this is really bad because women can contribute in a very important way to societies. First of all, we are half of the humanity of the planet. And my experience working with women in different levels is that when women are there, I mean, and particularly in the areas for peace and security, for example, women are very good on negotiations. Many times when women have been very involved, peace prophecies last longer, et cetera.

22:02So it would be an absurd, if I would say, or a huge contradiction for a world advancing in so many areas like technological and others to try to bring down all the rights and all the advances the women has had along all these decades. I would think it would be very, very bad for the world.

22:24James Copnall:Republicans in the US have accused you of having prioritized an extreme abortion agenda, end quote. I wonder if that sort of statement, how you reflect on that, given that you will, of course, need to convince America to back you. And yet you said that you don't intend to give up on your principles. That's a difficult terrain to walk along, isn't it? Well, there's two different things. One is me, Michelle Bachelet, as a person. Yes. And the other thing is the role of the secretary, you know, because the secretary general, as I said, has to. what it has to do is implement the mandate of the Security Council and of the General Assembly.

23:05And I do believe that the General Assembly in majority do understand that women's rights are needed, are important. There is an important organization, the United Nations Fund for Population, UNFPA, that really works also on all these issues. And there has been a lot of agreement. So it's not me trying to push for an agenda. that is an outside agenda from the UN.

23:33James Copnall:You mentioned that you're a hopeful person, that hope is vital. What gives you hope in these very difficult times we're living through? I mean, hope, it's a way of translating my commitment. If I would say I care for the people, I really care for the people. And of course, some days are not so bright and you don't have much hope. When you see the television, you see what's going on. But some days you find some examples of people who are able, communities who are able, even in those so difficult circumstances, to stand up, to do the right things, or member states or countries or leaders who do the right thing.

24:17And that gives me hope that the world is not alone, that we need people and leaders that ensure that we go in the right direction and not on the wrong barriers.

24:32James Copnall:Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, the former Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard, and the film director Christopher Nolan. Until the next time, bye for now.