Mikhail Ulyanov: Rescuing Iran nuclear talks

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2:04Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Hello, I am BBC presenter Farnas Ghazizadeh and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world.

2:18Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

2:23Farnaz Ghazizadeh:We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American. Having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I spoke to Mikhail Ivanovich Olianov, Russia's ambassador to the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. He has spent decades working on arms control, disarmament, and nuclear diplomacy. Now, as talks over Iran's nuclear program have broken down and conflict in the region has intensified, Russia is offering to help revive negotiations. Olianov says Iran would welcome Russia as a mediator, but claims Washington does not want Moscow involved in the process.

3:14Farnaz Ghazizadeh:What can the role of Russia be in this situation? Russia has already said that it wants to be the mediator.

3:21Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:Yes, our president made it clear that Russia would be ready to mediate. But for this to happen, we need consent of two sides. Iranians, to my mind, would be happy to see Russia as a negotiator. Americans, they said publicly, President Trump said, we don't need any mediators, we will do everything ourselves. Of course, if we are involved in the process, we will not play a role of a postman. We will try to help both sides to find common language. Theoretically, I don't know. The situation is very complicated, but of course we would be ready to help the two sides to find mutually acceptable solutions.

4:17Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Mikhail Ivanovich Olianov. We have already seen strikes on nuclear sites, disruptions around hormones, straits. Would you still give time and effort to negotiations or we have already passed that stage and we are dealing and managing the consequences of a failed negotiation?

4:45Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:Well, it's a theoretical question. To my mind, the war was not justifiable, absolutely. there was no reason to start aggression against Iran. Everything could have been negotiated by peaceful means, I'm absolutely sure. You know, the process of negotiations leaves a rather strange impression to my mind. The process is not well organized, well coordinated. I see unpredictable steps, especially by the United States. To my mind, the Americans made the wrong choice. They put major pressure on the campaign of intimidation of Iranians. It does not work with the Iranian side. they can withstand pressure of this kind as always but atmosphere is not conducive for successful negotiations and what makes me absolutely unhappy is the fact that Americans live alone Israelis they undermine the non-proliferation treaty as a matter of fact.

6:17Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:For example, the treaty allows its non-nuclear weapon states to use nuclear sinks for peaceful purposes. In case of Iran, Americans insist on total dismantlement or cancellation of the nuclear program. It goes against the treaty. It undermines the balance of the treaty between nuclear weapons and peaceful uses of nuclear energy. The same is the so-called zero enrichment. Under the treaty, Iranians absolutely have the right to enrich uranium.

7:02Farnaz Ghazizadeh:The US side, they are saying that Iran is lancing these negotiations, not just now, for the past 20, about a quarter of a century they are doing these negotiations. In the other administrations of the US, they had a team of experts who did the negotiations.

7:19Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:And we made very significant progress at the time when ROG Mali was a special envoy for Iran, for Iranian nuclear deal. We practically agreed on the conditions for restoration of the JCPOA. and the negotiations failed at the very last moment due to some subjective reasons. I don't want to point my finger at anybody, but I believe it was a collective fault. We stopped just five metres from the finish line. It was very regrettable.

8:05Farnaz Ghazizadeh:But you have already been very criticising about how the EU or the US are treating Iran. and you've been open about that. What do you think is the main issue with the West and Iran in these negotiations?

8:22Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:I believe what is lacking in this case is proper respect to Iran on the part of E3 and the United States. As a matter of fact, Western countries stopped negotiations on the restoration of the JCPOA. They blocked and did not participate in the negotiations. First, E3 disappeared from Vienna. They do not agree with that, but then they managed to hide, and nobody saw them. Americans continued for a certain period of time, but later on they apparently came to the conclusion that I don't know what kind of conclusions they made, but actually a positive result was absolutely feasible. I judge the person who was inside the process and who has some experience in doing such things.

9:30Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:And you know, when, for example, E3 left negotiations, they started to put pressure on Iran in the board of governors of the IAEA. Instead of negotiations, they started to put pressure. Iranians, they don't understand such language. They resist, of course.

9:52Farnaz Ghazizadeh:These can happen on days or we have to look into weeks or months?

9:57Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:I don't know, but take a look at the Vienna talks on restoration of the JCPOA. We started in April of 2021 and finished in March of 2022, almost one year. And it's normal. And we met on a regular basis. Of course, when Americans expect that everything can be settled at once, it can be so only if Iran capitalates. But Iranians are ready to fight for their interests. on diplomatic and military funds.

10:38Farnaz Ghazizadeh:What can the role of Russia be in this situation? Russia has already said that it wants to be the mediator.

10:45Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:Yes, our president made it clear that Russia would be ready to mediate. But for this to happen, we need consent of two sides. Iranians, to my mind, would be happy to see Russia as a mediator. Americans, they said publicly, President Trump said, we don't need any mediators. We will do everything ourselves. Of course, if we are involved in the process, we will not play a role of a postman. We will try to help both sides to find common language. In the past, we were quite successful in this regard in the course of the Vienna talks. On many occasions, we managed to find solutions acceptable to everybody.

11:35Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:And our counterparts, be it European Union, Americans, Chinese and Iranians, they recognized that our role was quite positive. Theoretically, I don't know, this situation is very complicated, But, of course, we would be ready to help the two sides to find mutually acceptable solutions.

11:59Farnaz Ghazizadeh:And what would be the best outcome for Russia? Because some media reports would say that Russia benefited from this war quite a lot.

12:09Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:It's ridiculous. It's an assessment made by unqualified propagandists and analysts, if I may call them analysts. This short period of when the prices on oil go up, it is very short. It's not strategic, just 55 days, and it may end up any moment. So we cannot take this trend as something of strategic importance for the Russian Federation. And our position is quite clear. We want peace to be restored. It is stated at all levels. And once again, we are ready to undertake practical steps in order to come back to peace for Persian Gulf states, for the United States, by the way, who made big mistake when they started this war of aggression.

13:13Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Again, if we go back to that point, because they have struck the Iranian nuclear plants and things like that.

13:20Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:It's outrageous. And you know why? Because these nuclear plant facilities were certified by the International Atomic Energy Agency as purely peaceful facilities. the inspectors they spend there a lot of time 24 hours a day 7 days a week Iran is the most verifiable country thousands of inspections the agency knows everything about what is going on so Americans and Israelis attacked peaceful facilities

14:00Farnaz Ghazizadeh:so you're saying that what Israel was saying was totally baseless

14:04Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:No information, no evidence. The agency issued dozens of reports, never reported about military site of events. Apparently, according to the agency and to the American intelligence community, by the way, there was a period in the beginning of this millennium when probably they, some agencies at least, undertook experiments with uranium. So, allegedly, there were some wrongdoings. But Iranians themselves stopped these activities before they became known to the international community. You believe them.

14:48Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Have you had any kind of inspection from your side, from the Russian side, to support this idea that Iran never wanted any...

14:58Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:We trust professionals from the International Atomic Energy Agency. By the way, there are some Russian people among them, professionals in monitoring and verifying compliance with the NPT, with the safeguards agreement. So, once again, we are not aware of any military activities in nuclear field, and nobody can provide any evidence to the contrary.

15:30Farnaz Ghazizadeh:You are listening to the interview from the BBC World Service with me, Farnas Qazizadeh.

15:58Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:I can optimize for meat, beverages, snacks or wine. Best of all, it was in stock and they delivered next day.

16:05Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Another crisis averted by Grand Appliance. Shop grandappliance.com to learn more. Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen at schwab.com slash Washington Wise. That's schwab.com slash Washington Wise. I had followed Mikhail Ivanovich Olianov for years before I met him because he was a familiar face. His bluntness was always making headlines in this rollercoaster of negotiation between Iran and the West over the nuclear programme.

16:56Farnaz Ghazizadeh:He became the Russian envoy in Vienna just before Trump came out of JCPOA. JCPOA was Iran's nuclear deal in 2015, when years and years of negotiation end up to this deal between Iran and the West over the nuclear issue. And when I arrived to Russian mission in Vienna, the courtyard was beautiful. There was a fountain in the middle. So we entered this building. It was a beautiful marble kind of entrance. And in there, I met Mr. Olliano for the first time. I hadn't seen him before. When we talked, he was so forward about defending Iran and also criticizing US and EU in the way they negotiated with Iran over the years.

17:46Farnaz Ghazizadeh:At the same time, he was keen to underline something else, that Russia was keen to be a mediator in this diplomatic path forward. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Mikhail Ivanovich Olianov. But IAEA's board of governors a few times criticized Iran because of different things. Why do they don't go to the negotiations? Why they don't cooperate with the IAEA's mission? Do you think Iran has been doing his part on this situation?

18:20Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:Well, first of all, I don't know when Iranians refused to negotiate. They are always ready if the other side, be it the secretariat of the agency or E3 or the United States, if they are ready for serious negotiations, if they demonstrate normal respect of the Iranian side, they do not close the door for negotiations.

18:49Farnaz Ghazizadeh:And one of the main issues is that 400 kilos of uranium enriched till 60%, which is now in the middle of this...

18:59Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:For Americans, yes. For Europeans, yes. For me, no. Let me explain. It was not occasional that Iranians started to enrich uranium up to 60%. They complied fully with the JCPOA, which allowed them to enrich uranium to 3.67%. And they always fully complied with these provisions until the time when Americans withdrew from the JCPOA. For the first year, from May of 2018, when Americans left the nuclear deal, and up to May of 2019, when Americans started maximum pressure campaign, Iranians fully complied with the JCPOA, unilaterally.

19:51Farnaz Ghazizadeh:Would Russia take that 400 kilos that's already causing so much...

19:55Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:If Americans and Iranians agree on this point, I believe almost for sure Russia would be ready to remove enriched, highly enriched uranium to the Russian territory. It's quite possible, but it's for the Iranians. There are various options. I want to say that everything should be decided upon at negotiation table, because there are different options. Americans want to remove the enriched uranium to the United States. Iranians claim that they want this uranium to stay on the territory of Iran. And they have the right. There is an option of downblending the highly enriched uranium from high level of enrichment to low level of enrichment.

20:45Mikhail Ivanovich Ulyanov:It's also an option. Then a removal to the Russian Federation. It's for the two sides to come to a unified position. I cannot prejudge. Do you see that happening soon? If Americans recognize that there is a non-proliferation treaty, which was initiated, by the way, by the US and the Soviet Union, it's a cornerstone of international security. If they comply with this treaty, in a sense that they must recognize that Iranians can do something in the nuclear sphere under international control, as provided by the Safeguards Agreement, by the Non-Proliferation Treaty. If Americans recognize these obvious facts, I believe a solution may be found quite soon.