Moazzam Malik, Chief Executive of Save the Children UK: Working on the ground in Gaza

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm James Kamarasamy, a BBC News presenter, and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. There have been so many disagreements between me and my family. Putting on a show, that is what it means to be Lady Gaga. Only the things that you can't solve with government and private sector is where you bring philanthropy in. There's no place in the world where women are equal. Every generation, every generation has to fight to maintain democracy. For this interview, I met Mazim Malik, the chief executive of Save the Children UK at their headquarters in central London, where we discussed the NGO's aid operation in the Gaza Strip.

2:07On 22 August, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, or IPC, declared that half a million people, a quarter of Palestinians in Gaza, are suffering from famine. The report was labelled an outright lie by Israel, which has denied there is starvation in the territory. The Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who has said that where there is hunger, it is the fault of aid agencies and Hamas. You're going to hear Maazim Malik talk about Save the Children's work on the ground, the conditions his staff are operating under, and the implications of the situation in Gaza on future international cooperation.

2:47I think if the circumstances that we're seeing playing out today in Gaza were in any other country, I don't think we would limit ourselves to simply declarations, words and wringing of hands. We would see action. And so the challenge for me and indeed for our organisation is to report in a dispassionate, evidence-based way. And the evidence speaks for itself. The circumstances on the ground over these 22 months are horrific and the risks are enormous. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Moazam Malik, Chief Executive of Save the Children UK. What sort of engagement do you have on a daily basis with the situation in Gaza?

3:30So I'm thinking about the situation on a daily basis because it's one of the most significant conflicts and humanitarian crises that are playing out across the world. It has catastrophic impact for the people involved, but actually the nature and the conduct of this conflict has implications for international cooperation more broadly too. Of course, responding to needs on the ground, trying to deal with the underlying conflict dynamics is a critical concern on a day-to-day basis, but this will have implications for the coming decade or more. And so this is really alongside a number of other situations right at the top of my priority list.

4:10When you say these broader implications, what might that mean for Save the Children specifically? So, you know, for much of my career, the idea that you could bomb schools, hospitals, kill health workers, media workers was just unimaginable. There were rules of war and they placed some boundaries on the conduct of war. And working with the UK military and the US military and others in places like Afghanistan, in Iraq, Sudan, elsewhere, it felt as though those rules were real and held. And then over the last, say, 10 or 15 years, we've begun to see those rules erode. And in this conflict, we've seen those rules trashed.

4:57And that's the operating context in which Save the Children teams work on the ground in places like Gaza, in places like Sudan, in places like Somalia. With the trashing of these rules of war, the world is more dangerous. The ability to respond to humanitarian need is becoming more and more difficult. The lives of our workers is at risk. And actually, it means that we head into a much more dangerous world for the people involved. But actually, we also face the risk of proliferation. right in other places if people look at this and say in this conflict you could get away with doing a b c d well i mean at war with this group in my own territory i can get away with the same stuff and so actually we see an unraveling that is hugely dangerous for the future so i mean maybe talk specifically about this week it started of course with the um attack at the nasa hospital five journalists among at least 20 who were killed.

5:56I mean, for your teams on the ground, was there any kind of impact specifically of that? So of that particular incident, no, but the general incursion and risk posed in Gaza City is beginning to encumber our operation. So Save the Children is one of the largest NGOs operating in Gaza. We've reached about a third of the population this year. We're operating primary health centres, nutrition centres, child-friendly spaces, places where children can go and get some basic education and some respite. We're trucking water around the territory. So our ability to operate depends upon the ability to move, access to fuel, access to supplies and so on.

6:42Gaza City is now seeing increasing violence that is encumbering our ability to move around. All of our staff in Gaza have been displaced many more than 10 or 15 times. They're not only trying to respond to this crisis, but they are living this crisis. They're struggling to find food and water for their children. They're worrying about what happens to their children when they're, in fact, reporting for work. But they're all very committed to trying to do the best. And indeed, what they tell me, when I was in Jerusalem in the West Bank just last month, What they tell me is that coming to work is a respite because they feel that they have purpose and that they can try to make a difference.

7:24And going home is difficult because then they have to confront the reality of the lives that they're living. But those lives are, as you say, faced with the same challenges, having the challenges of getting enough to eat and drink and to sustain themselves. That must be having an impact, however committed they are, on their ability to work. So we've got more than 220 staff there. We've got a handful of international staff who are based there. Our operation has continued to grow. So, you know, just two months ago, the number of nutrition centres, child-friendly spaces that we had, our trucking operation, was at a smaller scale.

8:04The fact that the scale has continued to grow reflects our ability to operate on the ground and the commitment of our staff and our partners, because we're working in partnership with others in Gaza. So, yes, the conditions are very difficult. As an employer, we need to constantly be looking out for the welfare of our staff, trying to provide flexibility, support to the extent that we can. But their commitment is very, very great, and they're on the front lines of trying to respond to people's needs. And as you've indicated, on the front lines of a war. So in practical terms, when a member of staff is injured, what are you able to do?

8:45We're able to use networks to try and provide medical support. Our staff are obviously very well connected within Gaza, and we will strive to provide all the support that we can. As an employer, as a responsible employer, we will provide financial support. We'll do all that we can. But we don't have a stock of housing to provide to our staff. We don't have a stock of food to provide to our staff. So it's really a case of best endeavours. You know, our staff are committed to what they're doing. They're committed to us. They believe in our mission and our work on the ground. And in turn, we're doing our very best to enable them to do their best work for the benefit of Gazan's desperate need.

9:29And the needs are enormous, as you know. So, you know, there are more than 60 ,000 dead, some 20 ,000 children dead. This declaration of famine is real. We're seeing that in our health clinics and in our health facilities. Over the coming weeks, something like a third of Gaza's population is expected to be experiencing catastrophic conditions. IPC category 5, so real risk of life. So the conditions on the ground are horrific. Save the Children. We need to be able to move around on the ground. We need supplies. We've not been able to get any of our own supplies in since 2nd of March. We're surviving on supplies that are being, in fact, transferred to us by WHO and UNICEF.

10:13We need fuel to be able to move around. And we, of course, need funding. Our operation this year is funded, but we will need funding as we go into 2026. This is a crisis that will run for several years to come. and we've also got the threat of deregistration hanging over us by the Israeli authorities. Hanging over you, what does that mean for you as an operation? So the Israeli authorities have sought to close down the international humanitarian operation or at least restrict it very severely. We see that with ANRA, we see that with other UN agencies and we see that with the NGO community. This new registration process that they are running, which will tell us whether we are able to operate or not in September, is another step in that.

11:01It's an attempt to restrict the nature of the humanitarian operation and at some level, actually an attempt also to silence criticism. So, you know, we've applied under the registration process. We are a very significant player. We think in terms of responding to humanitarian needs on the ground, say that you all need to be able to operate there. We hope the Israeli authorities will give us the registrations that we need. We're seeking assistance from our partner governments and our funders, including the UK, to lobby on our behalf to secure those registrations. But what will the implications be if you don't get registration?

11:39Well, we don't fully know because we don't know what the terms of non-registration will imply. We've got some contingency planning in place for how we would adjust our operation. Would you have to leave? Would your operation have to leave the Gaza Strip? In extremis, that's possible. Our planning assumption is that we would not leave. Our planning assumption is that we would need to withdraw our international staff that are based in Gaza and indeed in Jerusalem and the West Bank, because this is a registration process covering the occupied Palestinian territories. Working assumption is that we would look to operate under Palestinian registration and to nationalise our operation and seek to continue directly and in partnership with local NGOs to try and respond to the needs on the ground.

12:28You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts With the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

13:37Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:48For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Maazem Malik, Chief Executive of Save the Children UK. You heard him talk about how, in his view, the Israeli authorities have been trying to severely restrict the international humanitarian operation. Last month, more than 100 organisations signed a joint letter calling on Israel to stop what they described as the weaponisation of aid into Gaza. The Israeli authorities have denied there are restrictions and say the rules they've put in place ensure that aid reaches the population directly and not Hamas. It's previously blamed UN agencies and collection bottlenecks as the main obstacle for supplies getting into Gaza.

14:33OK, let's return now to my conversation with Moyaz Im Malik. You talked about lobbying. I guess that is where you come in with your background, your diplomatic background, your connections. What kind of challenge has the situation in Gaza given you? So I've been working on this conflict pretty much throughout my working career. I visited in 2000. I visited in 2008 as a UK government official. in 2008, the Israeli authorities had just newly imposed a blockade on Gaza. So the situation that we're seeing on the ground is not a new situation. This is actually a decades-old policy of restricting humanitarian access.

15:13At that time, I led a review of the humanitarian situation in Gaza and came back and recommended to the government of the day, a Labour government, that actually we should take steps to circumvent the blockade, because this was not in conformity with how humanitarian operations are conducted and indeed humanitarian principles, and that we wouldn't stand for this approach in any other context if this was a Sudan, a Myanmar, and many other conflict situations that I'd worked on. At that time, the British government decided not to act on the recommendations that I put before them. And that tells us something about the nature of this conflict.

15:52We see this in a slightly different sort of way. I think if the circumstances that we're seeing playing out today in Gaza were in any other country, I don't think we would limit ourselves to simply declarations, words and wringing of hands. We would see action. And so the challenge for me and indeed for our organisation is to report in a dispassionate, evidence-based way. And the evidence speaks for itself. The circumstances on the ground over these 22 months are horrific and the risks are enormous. But our challenge is how to try and galvanise not statements from the British government or indeed our partners, but action.

16:30We need to see action to secure a ceasefire. We need to see borders open for humanitarian access. We need to see arms sales fully suspended so that armaments supplied by the UK are not being used. We need to see action on accountability against individuals and parties to this conflict. We need to see the suspension of a trade agreement. We need to see action to end the occupation. We're talking to the government regularly, privately. We're talking to parliamentarians. We're, of course, talking to media. We're reporting what our colleagues are reporting from the ground on our social media. We're trying to build coalitions with other NGOs and we will keep pressing.

17:12Your frustration shines through your words. I mean, what are you hearing and seeing within the groups of people that you deal with, talk to on a daily basis? The frustration of people in international policymaking on this, my former colleagues in Her Majesty's government, is palpable. They know that we don't apply the same standards to this conflict that we do to others. But ultimately, these are political choices. We will keep engaging with all parties, not just Labour, but the Liberal Democrats, the Greens, the Conservatives and others. to try and demand action from our government. The statements are very welcome, but ultimately the failure to act means that the UK is complicit in the atrocities that are being committed in this conflict.

18:08And that, frankly, is not acceptable. It's not acceptable given our commitment to the rule of law. It's not acceptable given our commitment to an international rules-based order. and it will have consequences for the conduct of war over the coming decades. It will also have implications for our relationships around the world and how the world sees Britain and what Britain stands for. This immediate military action took place after October 7th. I wonder in terms of dealings with Hamas, what are they like on the ground? So we don't deal with Hamas on the ground. You know, we operate within the UK's regulatory framework.

18:49We have very strict standard operating procedures on the ground. We do deal with civil authorities where we have to. We're an independent NGO and we operate on the basis of independent principles and access with local staff. And we're careful about our recruitment processes and have strict rules in place about the conduct of our staff. have you had any incidents because that you've touched on something clearly that the israelis often accuse aid organizations and particularly the un of being in cahoots with hamas we've had no instances ourselves but i note also that whilst the israeli authorities are putting such allegations on the table regularly the balance of evidence is actually not there they haven't provided irrefutable evidence, and indeed independent reviews of these allegations have found that these allegations are largely baseless.

19:44And so, yes, we continue to operate on the ground. I think it's important also to note that we do strive, and I think it's hugely important to reach out in both our work and in our advocacy. So I've met with Jewish organizations, British Jewish community groups here in the UK, and indeed in Jerusalem when I was there in July. We've also met with hostage families. The suffering of Israeli civilians and Israeli children is as dear to me as that of Palestinian children. This is a conflict that's been running now for decades, and it needs to end. And so whilst the immediate focus is on a ceasefire and humanitarian access, actually, it is absolutely critical that we deal with the underlying conflict dynamics.

20:35This occupation must end. And if it doesn't, we may well find a peace and a quiet that lasts for a period, but it will explode again. That is the pattern that we've witnessed over recent decades, and it will continue. And so ending the occupation has to be firmly in the sights of international policymakers, and that requires a degree of courage. And as an NGO working on the ground, of course, the humanitarian needs are critical right now. But in how we conduct ourselves and in our advocacy, we're striving to address those long-term drivers to ensure that we create circumstances that lead to a long-term resolution.

21:17If as a result of military diplomatic pressure Hamas decides yes we're going to release all the remaining hostages where would the humanitarian situation go from there do you think? Humanitarian needs in Gaza are going to be high for years to come given the level of destruction to the civilian infrastructure. So even if we were to see a ceasefire tomorrow and the release of hostages and the cessation of hostilities, humanitarian needs on the ground are going to remain high. We will continue to operate and try to respond to those. It will take decades to recover from the brutality of this conflict and the level of destruction that has been experienced in Gaza.

22:02You talked about how you're able to support your colleagues financially. Just on a practical level, how do people get money? How do they pay for things in Gaza at the moment? So mobile telephony, mobile banking, phone-based financial transactions are a critical part of how business gets done. The private sector operates in fits and starts. In recent weeks, the Israelis have allowed some commercial supplies in. The supply of goods has risen. Prices as supplies have gone in have begun to come down. And so there is some access to cash, but largely a dependence on mobile money. And that depends also on internet access, though, doesn't it?

22:46It does, absolutely. You know, the internet and electricity, because you've got to be able to charge your telephone, is very, very variable on the ground. We will sometimes have situations where, you know, We've got a team of field workers out with only one telephone between them. And, yeah, the Internet comes in and out. But somehow the infrastructure and the people who support that infrastructure on the ground are managing to keep it going, even if it's in fits and starts. So have we found a glimmer of better news, if I can put it that way, that there are more supplies, that their prices are at the moment at least coming down?

23:23I don't take any comfort from that. The instrumentalization of humanitarian aid as an instrument of war and as an instrument of occupation is a decades-long policy. The Israeli authorities allow supplies in, and then they narrow the window and close the window. We've had times when diapers aren't allowed, baby formula isn't allowed. We've had time where basic medicines are not allowed. So, yes, in recent weeks, the Israeli authorities have allowed some commercial supplies in. We've seen some very low level of supplies going in through the UN. But as an NGO, we are still refused the entry of any supplies alongside other NGOs.

24:06And that's been the case since the 2nd of March. And there's no sign that that is about to change. So, yes, some good news, some small improvement in supplies. But famine conditions hold for a large chunk of the population. And we're expecting those circumstances to deteriorate over the next few weeks. Famine conditions don't materially change overnight because you allow in an extra five trucks. The circumstances facing people and children are cumulative and actually are permanent. So once a child experiences stunting, that is something that they carry with them through their lives. And so, you know, letting in a few more trucks in the last week or so is great, but it doesn't materially change the circumstances facing a very, very desperate and vulnerable population.

24:59Thank you for listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee, the former Liberian President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and Mohamed Yunus, the interim leader of Bangladesh. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the more than the score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the bbc's expert sports journalists more than the score for the bbc world service listen now search for more than the score wherever you get your bbc podcasts

26:39Thank you.