Nhial Deng Nhial: ‘South Sudan is being run down’

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm the BBC presenter James Copnell and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I'm disappointed in him. I dealed that four times and then you go home and you see just attack a nursing home in Kiev. So what the hell was that all about? I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me, but I was still 15 years old and I did not know who I was. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace.

1:55For this interview, I met the senior South Sudanese politician Nyal Deng Nyal here at the BBC in London. Nyal, who has served in numerous important roles, including as South Sudan's foreign minister, made headlines last month when he openly criticised the country's president, Salva Keir. Suspending his membership of the ruling Sudan People's Liberation Movement, or SPLM, Nyal accused the government of corruption, fuelling insecurity and refusing to hold long-delayed elections. President Salva is no stranger to public criticism, but there was a sense of shock that the latest to take aim at South Sudan's leader was Nyal Deng Nyal, seeing as he had been such a prominent figure in the country and the party for decades.

2:41South Sudan, the world's newest country, but also one of its poorest, gained independence from Sudan in 2011 after decades of struggle led by the SPLM. However, just two years into independence, a power struggle between President Salva Kiir and his Vice President Riek Machar led to a civil war. The ensuing conflict, largely fought along ethnic lines between supporters of the two men, resulted in an estimated 400 ,000 deaths and 2.5 million people being forced from their homes, more than a fifth of the population. The civil war was brought to an end in 2018 through a peace deal that saw the creation of a unity government that was meant to pave the way for elections in 2022.

3:24However, these never happened, and following renewed clashes between the army and opposition forces earlier this year, Riekma Shah and several key allies were charged with treason and other crimes. The United Nations is deeply concerned about a possible return to outright war. Amid these growing tensions in the country, even once staunch allies of the president are now speaking out, including Nyal Deng Nyal. Elections are important because if people are elected, they have a mandate from the people and they will have legitimacy. And because of that legitimacy, it will be difficult for other groups to seek to displace them through violence.

4:03Salva Kirna, his legitimacy ended since 2015 and he should have been seeking a new mandate from the people if he wants to continue running the country. Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Nyal Deng Nyal. So you made a very dramatic announcement. What is your critique of South Sudan now, of the way it's being run? In fact, I would say that South Sudan is being run down. The problems are huge. There's basically total failure of governance. Nothing is working. There is very serious political instability that has actually manifested itself in violence all across the country. There is intercommunal violence, intercommunal violence, and, of course, political violence.

4:47The economy is in shambles. The South Sudanese currency basically is now worthless. Life is extremely hard for most South Sudanese these days. We believe that this situation is being perpetuated by the refusal of the regime, President Selva Kheil personally, to allow the transition to run its course. After the conclusion of the peace agreement in 2018, the provisions of those peace agreements have not been implemented. They are being implemented selectively, and that the implementation, of course, even is being violated. The agreement itself is being violated. The government is dragging its feet on the implementation primarily because they do not want to see the transition run its full course because if that were to happen, the transition would end in free and fair elections and in all likelihood the current regime would be voted out of office by the people of South Sudan.

5:36Do you think President Salva Kiir would lose elections even given the historical weight of his party, the SPLM, which took South Sudan to its independence, even given its control of the mechanics of government you think he would lose elections? Yeah, I think the SPLM is potentially a very weighty political outfit but it has been basically destroyed, has been completely dismantled by President Selva himself. First and foremost, he basically tossed aside the vision of the SPLM. So although the government of the Republic of South Sudan is an SPLM-run government, there are no policies that emanate from the SPLM to inform government programmes and actions.

6:14So the SPLM is just like now an ornament. Secondly, he has emptied the SPLM of its cadres. I mean, the SPLM now, its leaders have been dismissed. They've been humiliated and they've been replaced by people who even at one point in time were actually fighting the SPLM or hostile to the SPLM. So the SPLM basically does not exist any longer. And so there is no plan. There's no program, you know, for running the country. Do you put that firmly on Salva Kiir, President Salva Kiir Mayadi's shoulders? There is a theory out there, the liberation curse, that says that the people who take a country to its liberation, to its freedom, the freedom fighters, often are very bad in government.

6:56that the skills required to be a rebel leader are very different to those required to run a modern country. And that sort of critique would fall not just on Salva Kiir, but on others, including perhaps you, who've been at the heart of South Sudanese political life for decades. Yeah, you can say that the failure of the SPLM is a collective responsibility in the sense that people like myself who have been part of the leadership for quite long haven't spoken out, basically, haven't taken action. But it is not necessarily true that liberators are not good in running governments. As a matter of fact, the SPLM, when you compare it to other liberation movements, is quite unique in the sense that it actually started preparing itself for governance responsibilities.

7:37Meanwhile, it was still in the bush. As a matter of fact, most of our SPLA commanders, especially when we were about to sign the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, were sent abroad to undertake courses that are relevant to governments and to provide them with the skills. Because in government, you need different skill set than when you are in the bush. So this has happened. A lot of cadres have been prepared for responsibility of government. But the president and the chairman of the SPLM, Selva Kirmayadid, has not allowed the SPLM to do its work. Because, you know, shortly before the Comprehensive Peace Agreement was signed in 2005, he and the late Dr.

8:12John Garang, our leader, had a fallout. And from that point onwards, Selva was suspecting that Garang was favoring some people in the leadership over him. Including you? Including myself. The so-called Garang boys. And then eventually he'd be sent out. So he took it upon himself when he became the leader, basically dismantled the SPLM and overhauled it completely. One of the stinging critiques in your statement was about the wealth of the country. South Sudan should be rich given its oil reserves. And yet I think it's true to say, whatever your political persuasion, that the people have not benefited from South Sudan's oil.

8:53Why? Well, because those resources are not being put to good use. Those resources are not being used to provide service to the people. Those resources are not being utilized to provide security, to put in place law and order, to dispense justice. Even right now, people are being killed by helicopter gunships in an attempt by the government to disarm the civil population. You know, if the government wants to disarm the civil population, then they should go about it in the correct way. But to go about it in the correct way, which is essentially, you know, you go to warring communities. If you want to disarm them, then you make sure that the process, disarmament exercise is concurrent.

9:34You see, because if you try to do it sequentially, you start with one group. The other group will not accept because they will suspect that we can't give up our arms because our foes on the other side are still bristling with guns, you know. But to do this, you need to avail resources. Law and order is supposed to be taken care of in South Sudan by the police. But the police itself is not provided with the resources, you see. The policemen are ill-trained, they are understaffed, they can barely put food on the table, which is a problem for almost everybody in South Sudan today. So the fact that resources are being diverted for personal gain and not employed for running the government and providing service is the fundamental problem of South Sudan right now.

10:17We had a situation where civil servants were not paid for about a year. even members of the military which is of course a risky proposition for any state and part of that is because south sudan's great resource oil is exported through sudan's pipelines a remnant of the fact when you're one country and the war in sudan has stopped the oil being exported could more have been done though because that is such a vulnerability and you see now south sudan's civilians unable to afford two or three meals a day? You see, as you mentioned yourself, I mean, South Sudan is endowed with enormous natural resources.

10:55Agriculture too. Agriculture, livestock, even there is potential for mining. But you are supposed to use the oil resources to unlock your potential in other sectors, which has not happened. Because you can run an economy that is entirely dependent on oil. Since you've got other resources, you have got to unlock the potential by investing oil money in opening up access to other resources. In fact, we used to say in that PLM that we would want to take towns to the people. And basically what is meant by that is to diversify the economy, you see. Make agriculture and livestock actually should be the backbone of the economy in South Sudan.

11:34Because if you look at the population of South Sudan, if you look at the resources that people have, we've got the land, we've got water, and we've got livestock. So basically it makes sense that you should focus on agriculture. So instead of using the money that we get from oil to unlock the agricultural potential and the livestock potential, and of course not to mention the huge wildlife-based tourism potential of South Sudan, all this money is being squandered, is being used for personal benefit. We have seen great cuts to Western aid budgets, the US in particular, but also Britain and other countries.

12:11And that is having an impact in South Sudan in feeding people who desperately need it. Do you look at that then and say we need more help from Western countries or do you say actually as South Sudanese we ought to be able to feed ourselves? We shouldn't have to rely on gifts, donations from foreign countries? Yeah, both propositions are true. I mean, given our resources, we shouldn't be begging or asking for aid. But at the same time, our country has been brought to its knees by the government and we can dispense with international aid until such time as when we are able to stand on our own feet and then be able to provide for ourselves.

12:56You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

13:40With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the more than the score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the bbc's expert sports journalists more than the score from the bbc world service listen now search for more than the score wherever you get your bbc podcasts

14:16For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to the senior South Sudanese politician, Nyal Deng Nyal. Following his forthright criticism of the president, there seems little immediate prospect of him returning to South Sudan. So our interview took place in the BBC studios here in London. Nyal seemed determined to make his words count. Before the interview, we chatted about one of his former careers as a professional basketball player. But once sat in front of a mic, the former minister turned what even his detractors accept as a first rate intellect onto what he sees as the collapse of South Sudan.

14:52OK, let's return to my conversation with Nyal Deng Nyal. You lay out a framework for progress in South Sudan, which I'm going to summarize a long document, but essentially is based on free speech, a new constitution, free and fair elections. How would that help? Because one argument in South Sudan has always been this. It's such a divided society and groups often have guns to support their agendas. And elections can actually be a source of tension rather than something that resolves a problem. Elections are absolutely critical because what's happening is that the gun culture is something that we have brought into government from the liberation process.

15:31The armed struggle that we waged helped us eventually liberate our people and get an independent South Sudan. But it has also come with a curse, you see. It has made violence an integral part of the political culture. If we do not set this aside, then we are heading for total collapse. The reason elections are important is because if people are elected, they have a mandate from the people, they will have legitimacy. And because of that legitimacy, it will be difficult for other groups to seek to displace them through violence. So let us instill in South Sudan the political culture of democracy and tolerance.

16:10Because even Salva Kiir now, he has lost his legitimacy. His legitimacy ended since 2015. And he should have been seeking a new mandate from the people if he wants to continue running the country. You'll be aware that Salva Kiir's supporters would react very strongly to that. They would say, he's the president, no one else has been elected, he is a legitimate president. He's a de facto president, but no longer a legitimate president. That's the point. We don't understand why Salva Kiir and his supporters would not try to seek a fresh mandate from the electorate. You see, because if there are no elections, if people like Riek Machar and other people holding arms are not given the opportunity to vie for political power through the ballot box, They will continue to fight.

16:53There will be armed resistance and they will be justified in doing that. You mentioned Riek Machar there. He broke with the SPLM during the long war against Khartoum at the time of one Sudan. He was the opposing side to Salvaqir during the civil war that broke out in 2013. We've seen peace deals. He's been back in government a couple of times as first vice president. He's currently facing treason charges in Juba right now. do you feel that whole court process is a legitimate one? I think what is important, irrespective of what's going on, if at all, I'm not privy to the circumstances surrounding the charges that have been levelled against Dr.

17:31Ryagmachar, but if at all people feel that he has a case to answer, then let that process be established in accordance with the law. I mean, let the decision turn on the legal merits of the case. But we have to be very, very careful to steer clear of any political manipulation of the process. In other words, if there is need to prosecute Rekh Machar and his associates, then let there be an attempt at criminal prosecution. But let us not engage in activities that would basically disguise political persecution as criminal prosecution. Is that what you fear is happening right now? I am afraid that's going to happen.

18:06And the potential consequences of that in South Sudan, which is already split partly on ethnic lines or community lines with Rekh Machar and Nua, Salvaqir, Adinka, could be very, very serious indeed. Yeah, the situation is already very bad and it could be even worse if people feel that the trial of Dr. Rieke is a sham. It's political, not really criminal. Then there will be a problem. Then there will be a problem, definitely. And I believe that the situation can get any worse than it already is. So I fear to think of the consequences if the trial of Dr. Rieke is not handled properly. Is a return to outright war a possibility?

18:43There's already a lot of clashes right now. The SSPDF is fighting SPLMIU in different parts of the country. So that's the government army against Riekma Shah. Exactly. So the ceasefire has completely broken down and there is fighting all over the country. And I believe that the government is even aggravating it further by its actions. I think yesterday there was a bombardment in parts of Taunch East where civilians got killed. I mean, as I mentioned before, they are not going about the process of disarming the civil population in the correct manner. I mean, it's a totally disproportionate response by the government using helicopter gunships.

19:22And these helicopter gunships, if you look at the victims of the bombing, they are all civilians, women and children. Not even in the case of Nasser. I don't know how many white army or SPLA IO were killed by helicopter gunships. So Nasser was this incident in which the white army, a newer youth militia, attacked the town of Nasser. a very strong government response, and that is the basis for the trial of Riek Machar. He's seen as being close to him. But you see that as a disproportionate response by your former colleagues in government? No, I mean, the government is fully entitled to fight its enemies.

19:56But in doing so, you shouldn't be killing women and children. That's what's happening in many parts of the country right now as we speak. Do you feel, as many in South Sudan do, that President Salva Kiir is preparing Benjamin Bolmel as his successor? He's been appointed as vice president, someone who doesn't have the same liberation struggle credentials as many of the old guard of South Sudanese politics like yourself do. The indications are that that is probably what he's trying to do. But that's not the problem. That's not the issue. The issue is basically anybody that assumes power in Juba, even if that person has been handpicked or designated by Selvakir, that person has to have the support, the blessings of the SPLM as a political party, but of the country in free and fair elections.

20:47Any South Sudanese citizen can seek to be the president, but you have to be chosen by the people. Otherwise, that would create problems. South Sudan's short post-independence history, but even if you go back before its independence, is full of examples of dissidents taking up arms and then afterwards coming back into government. You formed a new movement. Will it be a peaceful one or are you prepared to use violence to obtain your ends, your desires? We would hope that we won't have to resort, you see, to armed struggle. But if President Salvaqir and his government continue to resist the transition, so that the transition comes to a halt, then there will be no alternative, not only for me but for other South Sudanese, other than to resort to armed resistance.

21:37It will become inevitable. But surely the last thing South Sudanese needs is another armed group, another conflict. The villager struggling to get enough to feed himself doesn't want men with guns rampaging through his village. Yeah, but the problem men with guns are rampaging through a village is because of governance. Because if this regime continues in power and running the country the way it is, then there will be no end in sight to the suffering of the people. The people will definitely be compelled to pay a sacrifice in order to free themselves. There's going to be pain. It's not going to be free of pain, the process.

22:14But it is something that has to be done. It has to be done because otherwise I think the very existence of South Sudan itself as a state would be brought into question. How so? Can you explain that thought? Yeah, because the political elite, they want political power. And they are being denied political power by the regime. the only way the regime can resolve this problem is to allow those people the opportunity to seek political power through the ballot box because as i said if there is no ballot box at least most people would accept the idea of seeking power through the ballot box getting a mandate and legitimate from the people but if that route is blocked then there's no other alternative other than to resort to violence and violence taking place all over the country is basically a recipe for disaster.

23:04Do you see anybody, whether it's Salvaqir, whether it's any one of several other powerful men with guns, with armies, willing to accept defeat in an election? It's likely that the election results will be contested. But again, it all depends on how the elections themselves are conducted. I mean, right now, there's no political space. If you deny civic and political space, and then the government, let us say, under the SPLM, IG becomes the only political party that campaigns that goes out soliciting votes and so on, and others are denied that opportunity. Obviously, once the elections are held, if at all they're held under those circumstances, then most people, the defeated party, would not accept the outcome.

23:45So that's why I'm saying it's very, very important that even prior to the elections, we must give sufficient time to make the adequate preparations to ensure that once the elections are done with and the results are declared, everybody will feel that those results basically reflect the will of the electorate. There was so much optimism, so much joy in July 2011 when South Sudan declared its independence all over the country, all over the world, where there are diaspora South Sudanese communities, lots of goodwill, I think, around the world as well, which you saw as foreign minister. Do you feel that South Sudan's leaders, including yourself, have let the country down since then?

24:28Oh, absolutely. I mean, the manner in which the international community received the birth of the Republic of South Sudan was just amazing. Even we South Sudanese ourselves could not believe what we saw. I mean, the birth of a new country. Everybody the world over wanted to be associated with the birth of a new country and that success story. So to that extent, what has transpired very clearly indicates that we have actually let the country down. We have let the country down. Thank you for listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the Nobel Peace Prize-winning former president of Liberia, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, global music icon Stevie Wonder, and Somalia's president, Hassan Sheikh Mohammed.

25:20Until the next time, bye for now.

25:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:23expert sports journalists. More Than The Score for the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.