Nicholas Opiyo, human rights lawyer: Ugandans want change

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau Putin and the apartment bombs Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts From the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games To the European Athletics Championships The 2026 sporting calendar is packed full of big events Keep up with all the action with More Than The Score The podcast that goes beyond the score sheet Join expert BBC sports journalists every Monday to Friday For interviews with sports stars, big talking points and the stories behind the headlines.

1:07More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:20Hello, I'm Catherine Bjarahanga, BBC presenter and correspondent. And this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey. Being born in America, feeling American. Having people treat me like I'm not. We're more popular than populism. For this interview, I met Nicholas Opio, the Ugandan lawyer and human rights activist. Opio, as he prefers to be known, survived the civil war in northern Uganda to become one of the country's top legal professionals.

2:12He's taken on multiple cases of national significance, including successfully overturning the country's anti-LGBTQ legislation back in 2014, although this has since been reinstated, and represented a former rebel commander of the Lord's Resistance Army. Opio has also represented Ugandan opposition politician Bobby Wine, who, despite previously being arrested and charged with treason in 2018, challenged the 81-year-old incumbent, President Yoreri Museveni, in January's disputed elections. These were watched from afar by Opio, who was recently forced to flee his home country for his own safety, but still continues his human rights work.

3:01You're going to hear about Museveni's 40-year rule over Uganda and how it has shaped the nation and what it means for a proud Ugandan like Opio to be excluded from taking part in his country's democratic process. The first 20 years of Museveni was marked with rebellion and bloodshed. And the second 20 years really has been fairly peaceful. In terms of active war, there is no active rebellion. And we've got to give him credit for that. But a leader who is a good leader is not one who seeks to stay in power on account of a single achievement, but one who is committed to the long-term stability of the country.

3:43because ever since Uganda attained independence from the British in 1962, there has not been a peaceful transfer of power. So anybody who cares about the stability of this country must build a democratic culture and process of peaceful transfer of power. What we see is that President Museveni is undermining his achievements by seeking to cling on to power, by seeking to use brute, violent means to stay on power.

4:15Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Nicholas Opio. This is the first time I've had to sit out an election cycle and watch it from a distance. And I'm doing so because of fear of my safety. But watching it from a distance and being removed from it is deeply upsetting at a personal and a professional level. Yes, because through various cycles of elections that Uganda has gone through, As a human rights lawyer, you've worked with opposition figures, including Bobby Wine in the past. You've supported people who have been detained as part of their political work. Just talk to us about what you would have been doing.

4:57Would you have been in Uganda at the time? If I were in Kampala, we would be involved in documenting human rights violations in the course of the election. because elections normally come with a spike in violations of human rights. We would be engaged in documenting these incidents, to be able to chronicle this and archive this so that victims of human rights violations could find some redress post-election. We'd also be involved in various legal interventions, whether at a police level, to ensure that somebody arrested gets due process or is released on a bond to await a court appearance or to appear in court itself to defend people who are being accused of various crimes that, in our view, are unwarranted and unmerited.

5:46Lastly, we'd also be involved in offering our views and advice to people who are engaged in the election process. state actors and non-state actors, election observers, many of whom who just flew into the country only two days before the election, would benefit from our advice on the historical perspective of the different layers of complexities that elections in Uganda have. Unfortunately, we are unable to do that. Nicholas, like so many Ugandans today, majority of Uganda's population is incredibly young. most people have only known one president. I believe you're in your mid-40s, so you fall within this category where for much of your conscious political life, you've only known President Museveni as leader of the country.

6:38Just talk to us about what that does to the psychology of a nation, do you think? President Museveni came to power when I was five years old. So I've only lived as a child and in my conscious other life under his governance. I have never had the chance to see another leader lead our country. And yet the country continues to have a demographics that is heavily comprised of young people. I think about 75 % of the population are people below the age of 35. These are people who have grown up under President Museveni's rule and know no other leader. But having to be in power for 40 years does two things.

7:19It means that the state is now created in the image of the individual who is leading the country. It becomes a very important factor in every decision people make in the country. The bureaucratic state, the political state, the citizenry is all shaped and conditioned to think about him as somebody who is indispensable. And so every election cycle, people are reminded that there's nobody else who could lead the country. There's nobody else who can control the army. There's nobody else who can manage foreign affairs, but this president. And so 40 years of his rule means that the state is now shaped and run in his image.

8:04But the other aspect is that 40 years in power with a young population, the young population becomes impatient because they'd have no idea about what Museveni claims he went to fight for in the bush. They didn't see it. All they have seen is a 40-year rule that has resulted into high employment rates, poor services in the country, increased violation of human rights, and this young population are yearning to see a different president, a different kind of Uganda. when you then don't have the possibility of a transfer of power because elections seem to have a predetermined outcome at least at the top ballot you risk radicalizing people people begin to see other ways of changing government other than by the ballot because the ballot becomes really meaningless becomes a ritual so people become radicalized and that's how you begin to see young people willing to confront, you know, armed policemen on the street and risk their lives.

9:11And many of them, unfortunately, have been killed. Nicholas, I think for people who don't know Uganda, I always want to take people back to how Museveni came to power, right? We've seen those images of him dressed in military fatigue. He came in as a rebel leader who'd fought a five-year insurgency to take power. And then crucially in those, you know, first decade or two, there was a campaign for him to really take control of the whole nation. That led to a brutal conflict in the north and in the east of Uganda. You lived through that experience and it's a conflict that we don't often talk about that much anymore other than talking about Joseph Koyne, if we remember to discuss him.

10:04But just explain that those tumultuous decades when President Museveni was trying to cement his rule over Uganda. First people should remember that Museveni's ascent to power was on the background of a very bloody conflict. Now, when he took over power, he quickly got into a process of getting control of the entire country. And northern Uganda was seen as an area that was largely comprised of soldiers of the government he had overthrown. Many of those soldiers had retreated to their home villages and began what was a rebellion called the UNLF against President Museveni. And President Museveni went after them in the most brutal sense possible.

10:52Growing up as a child, I witnessed these atrocities. He went on really what was revenge killing and committed several atrocities in northern Uganda. These atrocities have been documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. And it drove many people to have sympathies with the rebels who had portrayed themselves as fighting to protect a population that was under onslaught from this new government called the NRA. And that conflict gave us the 20-year rebellion of the Lord's Resistance Army. In prosecuting its war against the Lord's Resistance Army, the NRA government under Yohar Museveni committed crimes as well.

11:32Many people have argued that there was a near genocide in northern Uganda because the whole population were driven into squalid conditions in what became known as internally displaced people's camps, or IDP camps. And many people died in those camps from lack of food, from lack of basic necessities. And many times they were attacked by the LRA. And when they were attacked, many people died en masse. And so growing up in northern Uganda, that was my childhood. An entire population was reduced into destitution and caught between a heinous rebel group and an abusive government of Uyari Museveni. And there's so many Ugandans who have similar experiences of going through these convulsions of violence since independence, not to mention the colonial period itself as well.

12:24But you had the overthrow of the first Milton Obote government. Then you had Idi Amin taking over after overthrowing him. Then Milton Obote comes back. There's another rebellion that's formed. Tanzanian forces are involved. Then eventually President Museveni takes over. The central argument from President Museveni has been 40 years, four decades or not, but I have brought stability to this country. Can you understand that position? Look, it is absolutely true that the later years of the Museveni government has seen the country for the first time peaceful. There's no active rebellion in the country.

13:12The first 20 years of Museveni was marked with rebellion and bloodshed. And the second 20 years really has been fairly peaceful. In terms of active war, there is no active, and we've got to give him credit for that, that for the first time in the history of our country, there's no active rebel group in the country fighting the government of Uganda. There are Ugandan rebel groups that have been pushed out of Uganda that are operating in the Eastern DRC and Central African Republic, namely the Lord's Resistance Army and the Allied Democratic Forces. So they're still active Ugandan rebel groups, but they're operating outside the country.

13:51And so you've got to give Mosevini the credit. But a leader who is a good leader is not one who seeks to stay in power on account of a single achievement, but one who is committed to the long-term stability of the country. And the long-term stability of the country demands that you organize a peaceful transfer of power, because ever since Uganda attained independence from the British in 1962, there has not been a peaceful transfer of power. So anybody who cares about the stability of this country must build a democratic culture and process of peaceful transfer of power. What we see is that PASMA 7 is undermining his achievements by seeking to cling on to power, by seeking to use brute, violent means to stay on power.

14:44You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

14:51If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

15:46Friday. For interviews with sports stars, big talking points and the stories behind the headlines. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

16:07I first met Nicholas more than a decade ago when I was the BBC's correspondent in Uganda. I was often in court for some of the groundbreaking cases where he acted as a legal representative. We've spoken on and off over the years since I left that role. But it's a striking image to see him speaking to me virtually from Washington, D.C., where he now lives, fearful of his safety back in Uganda, a country he deeply cares about. he's waiting for justice and change and he's hoping that it might not have to wait much longer okay let's return to my conversation with Nicholas Opio let's look at these election results President Museveni according to electoral commission won 72 percent of the vote his closest rival, Bobby Wine, won 25 % of the vote.

17:06What did you make of that result yourself? What were your thoughts when you saw that? First of all, you must underscore the fact that only 53 % of the registered voters turn out to vote. It's a very low voter turnout. The question Why? It is because the vast majority of voters know that an election is a fall-on exercise. It's a waste of time because the winner is predetermined. Many people didn't turn up to vote also because of fear of violence. When the streets of the city is almost like a military war zone with armed men everywhere, with army equipment, you know, armored cars and it's like a battlefield.

17:54Many people just didn't want to get involved because that shows possibility of violence. But that notwithstanding, you also have places where you think there are strong opposition areas, you know, didn't start voting until some as late as half past midday or 10 a.m. in the morning. Voting was supposed to begin at about 7 a.m. So there was some measure of voter suppression using technical means. Some argue that the votes were rigged. We're yet to see the evidence brought to court. We've seen some evidence being put on social media, but he has declared himself the president. He's going to rule the country for the next five years.

18:35You must also understand that this is the highest percentage he has ever got in an election. In previous elections, he was in the 50s or in the 60s. This is the highest percentage he has got in any election. And I think that this is likely because he managed to turn over parts of the country like northern Uganda or eastern Uganda that were predominantly opposition leaning. And President Museveni now has the task of convincing those who did not vote for him, of convincing those who stayed away, that he is the man capable of making this country more democratic. People doubt that, but we have to continue to ask him whether he's willing to turn over the page and for the first time make Uganda have a peaceful transfer of power.

19:21So as we speak now, Nicholas, you have the two, what are seen as the big opposition leaders in Uganda in what appears to be a precarious position. Kiza Besteje, who's taken on Museveni many times, is in prison. He has been charged with treason. You have Bobby Wine who challenged President Museveni this time around. As we speak, he is in hiding. He says he's scared for his own safety. Just describe what that means for democracy and the electoral process in Uganda. In all the previous elections, President Museveni's main challengers have either been in prison or facing serious charges or living threats of their life.

20:12You do recall very well the case of Mamam Mbaba's, Museveni's longtime friend. He was arrested and accused of many things. You do recall the early years of Dr. Kizavesej. Museveni's longtime friend and ally who fell out with him was accused of rape, was accused of treason. And when those elections were over, those charges disappeared. The same thing to Bobby Wine. Bobby Wine was accused of treason in the last election, if you remember. That treason case still remains open up to now in the Gulu High Court in northern Uganda. I was one of the lawyers defending him in that case. And every election, there is always a fear of post-election violence.

20:53And the response of the regime is to lock up or keep leaders under house arrest to avoid them to be able to organize protests. And so the fear is that then if Bobby Wine has access to the population, he will be able to organize them to march and demonstrate against this election result. And hence, there's just a security blanket at the home of Bobby Wine's own deputy, Mwanga Chivwombi. His own wife, he's my boss at Chapter 4, was calling me while soldiers were shooting into their gate and asking for help. They killed, according to her, 10 people in their compound. And so the actions taken against Bobby Wine, his supporters, are actions calculated to suppress any discontent with the outcome of the election results.

21:48We've talked about the challenges that Uganda faces. We've talked about the difficulties that there would be in any kind of transition. But is it a given that this will be a challenging experience for Uganda? Do you see any signs of hope? There's no doubt it's going to be a difficult process for Uganda because a 40-year leadership doesn't just let go easily. It's going to be a challenging process. How we deal with it will determine whether Uganda will be a peaceful country or not. My sense is that there's now collective agreement across the divide in the country that Museveni is now on his way out, that this is a transition from Museveni to somebody else.

22:34And how we deal with that process will determine whether this country will move forward peacefully or not. Now, as this transition happens, when it happens, what for you do you think will be some of the key issues that need to be resolved? We have to deal with the various episodes of violence that have dotted our country. Whichever part of the country you see, there is a call for justice, for episodes of heinous violations. We must address the question of historical injustice and come to terms with our dirty past, provide at least acknowledgement for the suffering of the people who have suffered under these episodes, and provide some measure of restitution and allow people to heal.

23:20In many parts of the country, people haven't even buried their own sons because they don't know where they're at. Let them find closure. Unless we address the question of a torturous injustice, we'll have grievances now and again simmering and causing tensions in the country. And I think that then leads us on to, I guess, an idea that I've been having conversations with a lot of people about is about how do you govern Uganda, which is a diverse country. I think a lot of people might not understand just how diverse this country is, how you have to govern by consensus, really, from all these different regions as much as you can.

24:05It is a very simple thing to do. What we have done in Uganda is concentrate power at the center. We have an imperial presidency who rules over everybody and makes decisions about everything in the country. In many cases, he's even settling divorce matters or land disputes between villagers. We must devolve power and allow for people to engage in their own self-governance. The central government can retain power of a few things, national security, the economy, foreign policy, but must allow people in their own locality to manage themselves. If you devolve power and allow people to manage themselves, you actually will solve a lot of the problems of governing Uganda because many people see that people who hold power use it for their own benefit.

25:05Thank you for listening to The Interview. For more compelling conversations, search for The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You'll find episodes from Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado, South Sudanese politician Nyal Deng Nyal, and Noura Erekat, the Palestinian-American human rights lawyer. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:38If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:30BBC Sports Journalists every Monday to Friday. For interviews with sports stars, big talking points and the stories behind the headlines. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.