Nigel Casey, UK ambassador to Russia: No communication is extremely dangerous

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm Steve Rosenberg, the BBC's Russia editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years. That's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me.

1:55For this interview, I met Nigel Casey, the UK's ambassador to the Russian Federation, at the official ambassadorial residence, which is directly opposite the Kremlin, just across the river Moskva. In a wide-ranging conversation, the ambassador describes his life in Moscow over the last two years, a period of heightened tension between the UK and Russia following Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. The number of diplomats in the city, has been drastically reduced. And for a British ambassador in Moscow, there are daily challenges to deal with. You're going to hear him say that he's followed wherever he goes in Russia, and how, on occasions, his staff face harassment.

2:39He sees a key part of his job defusing potentially dangerous diplomatic misunderstandings with the Russian government. He tells me there's a gap between the anti-British rhetoric you hear in the state media and the genuine curiosity of ordinary Russians about the UK and how this job is one of the most challenging and important of his career. There's never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia, what drives Russian decision-making, what we can expect from this country's leadership. I suspect the demand for our work has probably not been higher since the end of the Soviet Union.

3:19another great period of huge uncertainty. So that is a large part of my job and why my employer sends me here. Because there is so little other contact at the political level between business groups, the embassies in our two countries really are the main remaining thread on which our relationship hangs. It would be extremely dangerous if we didn't have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other. So that's, again, a core part of our function. And for me, perhaps the most important in the long term is to send a message to Russians that, you know, we're not walking away from this relationship.

3:56We've never wanted to have any kind of rupture. And we want a different relationship in the future.

4:05Welcome to The Interview from the BBC World Service, with the UK's ambassador to Russia, Nigel Casey. It is tough, obviously, working here in current circumstances. But it is a bit of history we're living through here. It feels like, from a professional point of view, one of the most important and consequential jobs I could be doing anywhere. It is a strange kind of privilege, if you like, to find myself here in this job in current circumstances. You know, we are every single day, as you know, accused of increasingly outlandish plans and plots by various bits of the Russian state. It taps into a deep wellspring of Russian sense of rivalry, I would say, with Britain.

4:50When you actually talk to Russians as you do, you find it's a much more complex relationship. And people's attitudes are rarely as black and white as they're portrayed in the official media. I actually very rarely encounter any genuine hostility from ordinary Russians. even when I introduce myself and they've acknowledged who I am, you very quickly get past that. I think Russians are fascinated by the UK and the reverse is also true, of course. And I think there is a degree of respect in that relationship and, as I say, mutual admiration and interest which transcends individual governments and individual difficult periods like this in our history.

5:33I agree there seems to be a big gap between the sort of anti-British rhetoric that you hear in the state media and what ordinary Russians say about Britain. But, you know, this hostility towards the UK from the authorities, how does that affect your work as British ambassador here? Well, it has obviously made it much more difficult in a practical sense. People are literally scared of meeting us. I have noticed, even in my two years here, the number of people who are willing to meet me has shrunk. It was small when I arrived and now it's smaller. We know that the kind of people that we might have met in earlier times in think tanks, in the academic world, never mind diplomats, have been formally told that they have to report any interactions with unfriendly embassies.

6:23And since we're at the top of that list, I think that particularly affects us. So the circle of Russians that one can talk to is smaller. but also the job is narrower. I mean, there are large areas of work which the embassy did when I was last here 20 years ago that we just don't do at the moment. I think cooperation in science, in technology, in climate change, in arts and culture, education. These are things which, you know, in current circumstances are not happening. How difficult is it to travel around the country? I mean, do diplomats still have the chance to travel around? Well, it is possible to do a certain amount of official travel.

7:07I mean, I've just been in Murmansk and I was in Archangel earlier this year because 2025 was obviously the 80th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. And it was an opportunity to remind people of the contribution of the UK to sustaining the Soviet war effort because, as you know, vital supplies were brought in through the Arctic convoys to northern Russia to sustain the Soviet war effort in the sort of vital first couple of years of the German invasion of Russia. So going to places like that and paying tribute to those who lost their lives in that effort is tolerated. We have a consulate still in Yekaterinburg, which I'm able to visit.

8:00I would say if I tried to do an official visit with formal meetings anywhere else, it's pretty much impossible. People won't meet you. It'll be as difficult as possible. Suddenly a demonstration will appear. And so for the rest of Russia, you can do personal travel. But official travel just doesn't work in current circumstances. And I mean, I don't know if you can talk about it or not. But, I mean, when we travel outside of Moscow, very often, not always, but very often we sense there are people sort of following us or keeping an eye on us. Would that be the same for both of us? Oh, yes. Yeah.

8:36No. We assume that by one means or another, people are following our movements and who we're talking to and what we're up to. And, I mean, that has always been the case, though. I mean, you know, one feature of the current landscape, which I think is not new, is this obsession with following foreigners around Russia. But it always, of course, particularly applies to us and in current circumstances all the more so. So, yes, some of it tips into overt harassment. That's quite rare, thankfully, but does happen. As you may have seen outside this building, when we mark our national day, there's quite often suddenly a crowd of concerned citizens outside making a lot of noise and trying to intimidate our guests.

9:23Is it dangerous for Russian guests to come into the embassy? We have people who have been quite frightened by their experience in coming here. We know people have been spoken to afterwards and have found that quite intimidating. And some people's reaction is to dial back on contacts with us, either for a period or completely. And that's deliberate. And I think it's part of a broader effort, unfortunately, by the Russian state at the moment to really try and minimise contact between Russians and Europe. It feels like, to me, a sort of historic reversion of the trends, reversal of the trends that we saw here in the 1990s and the early 2000s.

10:13Does it feel to you, because it sort of feels to me as if some kind of new iron curtain or Berlin Wall is sort of going up, some new barrier between Russia and Europe? I think there is definitely a conscious and deliberate and systematic effort by the Russian state to reduce contact between Russians and the West. And if you look at the increasing controls of the internet, to make that difficult online as well as physically. Is it total yet? Is it a total war? No, thankfully not. And part of the reason that we're here is to make clear to ordinary Russians that that's not the kind of relationship we want.

10:59You know, the Kremlin might be trying to reduce their contact with us, but that's not our policy. And indeed, it's not the kind of relationship we want with Russia writ large and that a different type of relationship would be on offer if Russian behaviour outside its borders changed. Britain obviously has lots of ambassadors around the world. Trying to be objective, I mean, how challenging would you say the job of British ambassador in Moscow is compared to the others? Well, thankfully, this is not one of the posts that we categorise as a conflict post. But in terms of the relationship with the host government, this is right up there.

11:45I mean, this is one of the most challenging. It's certainly the most challenging job I've done in my career. It's what makes it interesting. It's never easy. It wasn't even easy, you know, 20 years ago in better days.

12:02You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service. People shaping our world from all over the world. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

12:46With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport. And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

13:23For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to Ambassador Nigel Casey, the UK's top diplomat in Russia. We sat down for tea at the ambassadorial residence. It's a majestic building, a plush Moscow mansion. It was built by a sugar tycoon in Tsarist Russia, and, rather appropriately, boasts one of the sweetest locations in Moscow. The ambassador's balcony has the most breathtaking view of the Kremlin, which is just across the river. OK, let's return to my conversation with Nigel Casey. How much contact are you able to have with the Russian government, with the Russian authorities? It's very limited at the moment.

14:03Generally, if you see me going into the foreign ministry, you can put a decent bet on it being bad news. And that's not because we don't want to have constructive conversations with the Russian government. I think it's actually a pretty vital part of my job to engage and to try and make sure that dangerous misapprehensions or misunderstandings of our role and intentions are defused wherever possible. But it's rare. I think I've seen the relevant Deputy Foreign Minister three times this year. What's it like when you're sort of summoned to the foreign ministry? What's that experience like? It varies.

14:47If it's a serious conversation, then it can be quite straightforward. If it's a bit of a media circus, then the foreign ministry press department will arrange for a group of rather familiar-looking journalists to turn up outside the front door, and they'll play all sorts of games trying to make you look stupid. on the way in and out. That's part of the sort of rigmarole, really, of that kind of information operation, as they call it here. What is the hardest thing for you as an ambassador here, as far as your job is concerned? I think the hardest thing for me is worrying about the pressures on my staff.

15:35I think my staff tend to get a harder time quite often than I do directly. They not only get followed around, sometimes they will be harassed and quite a lot of the time they might be separated from their families and feeling quite isolated. And so a lot of the job is about making sure that the team's welfare is looked after and I think my responsibility towards them is probably the thing which keeps me awake at night more than anything else. Another question that I get asked from time to time is, why are you still there? Western journalists should pull out of Russia in protest. Why do you think it's important for, for example, British diplomats to remain here?

16:31I've heard people say just build a big wall just forget about Russia what do you think? Well first of all from my my employer the British government there's never been a great demand for analysis, information, understanding of Russia what drives Russian decision making what we can expect from this country's leadership I suspect the demand for our work has probably not been higher since the end of the Soviet Union, another great period of huge uncertainty. So that is a large part of my job and why my employer sends me here. Because there is so little other contact at the political level between business groups, groups, the embassies in our two countries really are the main remaining thread on which our relationship hangs.

17:30And I think it would be extremely dangerous if we didn't have at least this limited ability to communicate with each other. So that's, again, a core part of our function. And the third is, as I mentioned earlier, I think, for me, perhaps the most important in the long term is to send a message to Russians that, you know, we're not walking away from this relationship. We've never wanted to have any kind of rupture. And we want a different relationship in the future. But that does depend on a fundamentally different type of Russian behaviour outside its borders. And I suppose Russia, I mean, Russia's not going anywhere, is it?

18:08The biggest country in the world. Yeah, no. Russia's, it's a great myth of Russian propaganda that we ignored Russia and forgot about it. You hardly ignore Russia. You've been reporting this story for three decades or more. We never have. It's a compelling story. Russia generates a lot of news, mostly bad, but it's never news that you can ignore. And it matters for our interests, particularly the security and stability of the European continent. And so that's not something we will ever walk away from voluntarily. Do you get a sense, because very often I get a sense that I'm living in some kind of alternative reality or parallel reality.

18:51How difficult is it to live and work in that kind of atmosphere, that kind of landscape where black is white and white is black? You do live in a parallel universe of Russian propaganda here. And I encourage my team and myself to make sure I get out of Russia regularly to remind myself what normal looks like. Because after you've been here for a while, it's very, very hard to ignore this sort of tidal wave of untruth which comes at you 24-7. and you find it starts to seep in and I understand why Russians start to imbibe some of this stuff when they hear it so constantly. One of my favourite discoveries is that Lewis Carroll visited Russia in 1867.

19:43It was the only country he ever visited outside the UK and some people claim that he wrote Through the Looking Glass as his response to his experience, even in 1867 of this country and quite how different it was. And he talked about seeing the city reflected in a false mirror. So, you know, I think that there is something about Russia that has endured for that length of time. But the inoculation against it is to get out regularly and reset and then come back refreshed and clear about where truth lies. That's fascinating. I had no idea that Lewis Carroll had been here. He came here on an ecumenical visit.

20:34He came to visit the Orthodox Church because there was a fad for reuniting the Eastern and Western churches and he met the Metropolitan of Moscow and he visited Moscow, St. Petersburg, but also Nizhny Novgorod. So the place obviously made a deep impression. He talked about hearing the jabber of voices because he obviously couldn't understand Russian. And again, some people claim that the jabberwocky was his response to hearing such an unfamiliar language spoken around him and not having any idea what it meant. Fascinating. Fascinating. What do you like about Russia? What are the things that attract you to Russia?

21:18well um uh moscow is is is still uh a in many ways a great city and um one of the things that one can still enjoy despite everything here uh is um the the cultural offer that moscow has um so um i try as far as possible to uh take opportunities to go to the theater uh go and see new films um go and listen to the really world-class music that is on offer here every night of the week. There are new openings of exhibitions, even if it's having to use the resources within Russia rather than cooperating with any foreign institutions these days. I studied history at university and Russia is steeped in it.

22:06And so I find all of that rich and fascinating. And that's what that's what keeps me going here. I'm sure I imagine you feel so. Absolutely. Yeah. Just bringing bringing the conversation back to the political situation here. Another question I get asked a lot on air constantly is what is Vladimir Putin thinking? You know, what's in his mind? And I expect to an extent that's a question which kind of you're looking at on a daily basis. Is it possible to know? Is it possible to work out his thought processes, his thought patterns, what his plans are? Because I suppose that's kind of the answer to that question is key.

22:52Well, a lot of it is they're hiding in plain sight. I would always recommend to people reading Vladimir Putin's speeches in his public addresses, some of the particularly seminal ones, his famous Munich speech in 2007. If you look at the speech he gave to the foreign ministry in June 2024 about his goals for the war in Ukraine, his famous essay on the historical unity of Ukraine and Russia a lot of his innermost thinking is on the page now can you take it all at face value well that's a challenge which I think it requires people who've been here as long as you have to take judgments on but there is a consistency about President Putin's view of the world and his objectives which I think you can trace back.

23:56Maybe it's easier to do it in retrospect but you can certainly, sitting where we are today, trace it back to the very early days of his time as president. So, I mean, this is an extremely closed political system and I think Winston Churchill said something about, he compared Russian politics to the bulldogs fighting under a carpet in the sense that it was only after you saw the outcome that you knew you had a sense of what had been going on. But I think that's part of the fascination of my job and I guess yours is that we have to assemble a jigsaw puzzle with only a few of the pieces and fill the rest in with our own experience and knowledge.

24:47And I think with Vladimir Putin, there's a lot of clues in public and some of the other bits you have to fill in for yourself.

24:57Thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview, wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with the author Sir Salman Rushdie, Nobel Peace Prize winner Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, and the Venezuelan conductor Gustavo Dudamel. Until the next time, bye bye for now.

25:30If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:15And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.