Patti Smith: Artists have a responsibility to speak up

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the Apartment Bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score from the BBC World Service.

1:05Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:16Hello, I'm Katie Razzle, the BBC's culture and media editor, and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. Wind power in the United States has been subsidized for 33 years. Isn't that enough? Solar for 25 years, that's enough. I don't have army. I don't have missile rockets. I have my body. I have my voice. I love singing and so my goal was always to do better and better at it. I was still in an induced coma in hospital when the world was defining me.

1:57For this interview, I met Patti Smith, the American singer and songwriter, during her UK tour marking the 50th anniversary of her groundbreaking debut album Horses. In this intimate conversation, Patti reflects on co-writing her hit Because the Night with Bruce Springsteen, her role at the vanguard of a new wave of artists in the 1970s, and the profound love story that shaped her life. She also shares how a chance discovery, unearthed a secret that threatened to completely shake her identity. I've been through some things that a lot of people will have to go through. The loss of their loved ones, a sibling, a best friend, their dog, but also finding things out in their life that they didn't know, questioning their own identity.

2:50And I think if I can offer anything, it's just that if you love being alive, if you're happy with yourself, everything else will fall in place.

3:07Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Patti Smith. This book, really the idea of the book came to me in a dream and I'm very dream conscious so I thought about it quite a bit. And then I've lost so many people in life, some of them quite young. I wanted them to be remembered. And so the book became really a way of me to show gratitude for the people that influenced me, whether poets or musicians or artists, my parents, my siblings, my beloved husband, my friends. I also think I've been through some things that a lot of people will have to go through. The loss of their loved ones, a sibling, a best friend, their dog, but also finding things out in their life that they didn't know, questioning their own identity.

4:06and I think if I can offer anything it's just that if you love being alive if you're happy with yourself everything else will fall in place and I do get that so strongly not just from the book but from your Instagram and everything it is this sort of gratitude for life which you know not everybody has it's so incredible and as you grow up you talk about wanting to surrender to being an artist. You moved to New York City. You lived through this incredibly vibrant time where you're communing with these literary giants, William Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, incredible musicians and poets, including Bob Dylan.

4:46You're performing at the legendary CBGB Club. What was that period like? In the book, you talk about being art rats, embracing then breaking apart a vast cultural history? Well, first of all, CBGB's wasn't legendary yet. It was really a hole in the wall. It was Tom Verlaine and Richard Hell, television, that discovered this place, because there was nowhere to play. If you were Maverick, there was no real place for us. And they discovered this empty bar and asked if they could build a little stage there. and that's how it started. It was completely unknown and with television we began to fill it for maybe 250, 300 people and in time it just developed into a very important scene for a lot of the musicians and artists of the future.

5:41But it was, you know, I really went from the Chelsea Hotel filled with people who were very, I mean, they were our people. I mean, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix. I would see the Allman Brothers every day at the Chelsea Hotel. Salvador Dali, people walked in and out of that hotel who already had quite a reputation. But it wasn't my world. They were people I admired and got to interact with. But CBGB's was my world because we were new, unknown. We had our own ideas. And one of the things that you do pick up, clearly it's this incredibly vibrant scene. Of course, not surprisingly, it's a long time ago, there was sexism, whether that was the reaction to you having some armpit hair on the cover of one of your albums, Easter, or musicians refusing to play with a female band leader.

6:36What was your attitude to that? You never compromised, Patti, did you? That's one thing we know about you, no compromise. Well, it was quite easy for me, though, because I wasn't fully formed as a performer, a singer. I hardly knew what I was doing, really. I was learning to use a microphone. But for some reason, I have this other aspect, you know, a certain inbred bravada, the same bravada that allowed me to walk into a school room and tell the whole class about Moby Dick without fear. You know, I liked talking before people. I think that when I would encounter things like that, I never lost my sense of humor, nor my sense of self.

7:24I had a lot of armor and it wasn't easily pierced. Very good. I'm glad to hear it. And in 1975, you and the band create Horses. And you talk about in the book, I believed I could reach out and connect with the fringes of society, which was also my society. Our record wasn't to garner fame and fortune. It was for the art rats, known and unknown, the disenfranchised, the shunned. It was for the wild boys of the future. It was for the girls who shed conventional expectations, unwed mothers, orphans, poets. Was it always and is it important for you that your music serves a wider purpose? That was the people that I wanted to reach were like myself.

8:07And I felt like, you know, a lot of the people that I spoke of, a lot of them were quite vulnerable or they had nowhere to go. We were still living in a time where, you know, if a kid told their parents they were gay in the Midwest or somewhere, they were disowned. New York was filled with the disowned. People that were trying new things, trying to discover themselves. and whether to be artists and poets or musicians. Nobody wanted their kid to be an artist, poet or musician back then. Even my parents, they wanted me to be a schoolteacher. They wanted me to get a real job. I wanted the underground and the underbelly people so that they knew that someone was with them.

8:55And if they couldn't speak for themselves, even if it seems a bit, you know, brash or presumptuous, that's what I felt my mission was. And we're going to talk about when you decided to stop, turn your back on that for a bit. Clearly, the impression I get from the book is that you found the fame side of music suffocating. How do you deal with it now when our culture is so much more celebrity-obsessed than it was back then? I just ignore it. That's one of the things I had to really counsel myself about toward the end of the 70s. In Europe, at least, you know, I had the status of a rock and roll star.

9:32And it's very demanding, very stressful. And I found myself to be driven in a way almost as if I was in a privileged position. And some of it is because of the pressure and the stress. And I thought I wasn't raised like that. It wasn't my ambition. It was exciting to be a rock and roll star for a little while. But what I've always wanted to do is do good work. Do something new. Astonish people. and I saw myself sort of artistically or creatively at a standstill. I wasn't evolving as a human being. I wasn't evolving as an artist. It wasn't about it going to your head. It was more that you were just being channeled down a particular...

10:17Well, it can go to your head. I'm sure. And I'm not even saying that anyone's to blame for that because it's enormous pressure and you have a lot of... You know, when you're walking down the street in Italy and you have hundreds of girls, which I did, even running after you. And it's like your life is completely turned around and your self-perception can be turned around. And I thought it was time to reassess myself. And of course, I had found the person that I loved, wanted for life, but it wasn't just for him or love. It was for not even self-preservation, but it was in order to preserve my original goal in life.

11:02And that's simply to do good work. There's nothing better than writing a paragraph that you put down the pen and say, that's good. And that's what you did with Fred. When you decide to turn your back on the band and performing at that point, you go and live with Fred, you write, you marry, you have children, you spend all your time together. It feels like a love letter to him, this book. It's a very personal experience, what you've gone through. Is that how you see the book, that it is a love letter to Fred, who so sadly died? Well, sorry. That's very... Thank you. That was very touching. Thank you.

11:44Excuse me. I'm sorry to make a question. No, no, no. It's not sad. It's not a sad feeling. I think it's a love letter to my parents, to my siblings, to my husband, to my brother, to all of the people named and unnamed that helped shape me, helped form me, who even the people, you know, at our concerts. In a certain way, I can remember everything. I can look at my life and think of all of the people, a small thing they might have said or something they did for me or a lesson I learned or something I was taught. It's a really a big love letter. But of course, in terms of, you know, the heart, Fred is he's the one.

12:37And one of the songs, Because the Night, you describe as a love song for Fred. Can you tell us that story and also how you feel now when you perform it? Well, when we were recording Easter, I had been recuperating from a bad accident and we didn't have a lot of material. I also had chosen Jimmy Iovine, who had never produced a record before. He was under a lot of pressure. We didn't have that many songs. he worked with Bruce Springsteen and Bruce had written an excellent song but was having trouble with the lyrics and he abandoned it and Jimmy asked if Bruce would let me finish the lyrics so Bruce very generously gave him the tape and me ungenerously wouldn't listen to it because I really so wanted I had been you know down for months with from an accident I really wanted to do my own work, our own songs.

13:35And every day I had this tape on my mantle every day, Jimmy would call, do you listen to the tape? Listen to the song? I go, I will, I will. And I was reluctant. And then Fred lived in Detroit. We had a long distance relationship. We didn't have a lot of money. So long distance calls were so expensive. We only spoke once a week. And I lived for that phone call. So I was waiting and he was supposed to call at 7.30, 8.30, 9. He was never late. And by 9, 9.30, I was pacing up and down my little apartment and I didn't know what to do with myself. And I noticed the cassette sitting on my mantle and I thought, all right, I'll listen to the song.

14:24So I put it on the cassette player. I remember this exact moment. I put it on, listened to it, and I went out loud. It's one of those darn hits. I knew it as soon as I listened to it. It was perfect. It had a sensualness. It was anthemic. I was like, oh, no. But it was so seductive that I wound up writing lyrics. So Fred did call me at midnight. and by midnight I had finished all the lyrics to it. Thank goodness to Jimmy Iovine and so grateful to him and Bruce and we recorded it and it was, say for people of the power, my most successful song.

15:13You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service, people shaping our world from all over the world.

15:23If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? the History Bureau Putin and the apartment bombs listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts with the European Athletics Championships the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport and the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists More Than The Score for the BBC World Service.

16:22Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

16:33For this episode of The Interview, I'm speaking to legendary singer and songwriter Patti Smith. We met in a hotel in London the morning after she'd performed at the Palladium, one stop on the tour marking the 50th anniversary of her horse's album. To be honest, I was a little apprehensive. After all, I was meeting not just an artist, but an icon. Patti Smith, though, was immediately warm, open, and happy to share her thoughts on what shaped her creatively and some of the stories of her fascinating life. OK, let's return to my conversation with Patti Smith. And looking back, as you do in this book, there's such a sense of you and your fellow artists striving for a better world.

17:16There's one point after 9-11, you said, the 21st century had not unfolded as my generation had once envisioned, universal harmony, renunciation of war, charity according to the need. That song of yours, People Have the Power, it is obviously a rallying call. Is that what you still believe today, that music is a tool for change, that people can make change? People Have the Power was actually Fred's concept. It was his title. The song has three tiers. The first calls for environmental change. The second is against war. And the third is for the greater community. And it was for the people of the future, for marches, for protests, for, you know, just feeling some strength.

18:05And he didn't live to see that happen. But I have lived to see it. And what does that mean to you? It makes me both, it's heartbreaking that he didn't live to see that, but it makes me so proud for him and happy. How I feel about it today, I will always believe the people of the power, but numbers is what we need. It's not enough for 10 ,000 or 100 ,000 people to take the streets. You need millions. We need a huge global effort for climate change against climate change, just to do better as a people everywhere. And I just wanted to say a lot of people will say, well, artists need to speak up. It's artists' responsibility to speak up.

18:51Yes, I believe that. And some of us have, if we have a voice that goes further than some individuals, use it. But I don't think it's the artist's job. It's the people's job. It's all of us. All of us can do our part. You have such a huge following on Instagram for your photographs and your writing. You have a sub stack. You're obviously a huge influence on younger artists, Jira Leeper from here in the UK. Taylor Swift referenced you and Dylan Thomas in her song, The Tortured Poets Department. How do you feel about the way these young artists respond to you? How do you feel about something like that from Taylor Swift?

19:31And why do you think it is that you inspire them so much? I actually don't know. I've met a lot of these girls that I admire, like Lana Del Rey. And, you know, I'm thrilled to see that they have, that maybe I've been some influence or have helped them along the line. But they're their own people. They're the future. And I pin my faith on our young people, whether it be, you know, a pop star or Greta Thunberg, whoever, my daughter, my son, I pin my faith. on our youth. I mean, in your book, you talk about your parents a lot. They're clearly so important, not least your dad, who really did keep you alive as a baby, as a sickly baby, holding you over the steam for hours to help you breathe.

20:21But you also find out your biological father was somebody different. And that knowledge, as you say, obliges you to rearrange your entire universe. Yes. How have you done that? Has the truth to your identity given you answers? Where are you? How does it settle? I was nearly 70 when I found out this. I love my father so much. I would be lying to say I wasn't a bit brokenhearted, that he wasn't my physical blood father. But he raised me and I modeled myself after him. And it was my blood father and my mother who made it possible for me to be alive. So, again, I look at it, you know, moving through the sadness with real gratitude and real love.

21:15And how did it come about? How did you discover it for people who don't know? Really, I was always a little different. And when my parents both died, my sister and I, we wound up taking a DNA test. More to find out our heritage, because my father was 50 % Irish. We were just curious. But it turned out that I had a whole set of relatives that she didn't have. So we found out that way, and it took a long time to trace who my father was. And it actually held the book up for a while because I had to process that. So much of my book was dedicated to my father, and it still is. And he will always be my father, but now I have two fathers.

22:10and I, in terms of my mother, she had such a rough life, but she always tried to find the best of things and I know that she kept that secret to protect me because she knew I idolized my father and I know she protected. So I never feel like she lied to me, she didn't tell me the truth, I feel like she did her best to protect me. If she could walk in a room, you know, and I have all this new information, I would just love her a hundred times more. I wonder, you may never think about your own legacy. That's a, you know, strange thing for people to do. But to us, from the outside, you know, you're somebody who refused to conform to the expectations of what a female artist, musician, singer should be.

23:03And that was so inspiring to so many people. And I wonder now, do you think that the sort of sexism of the music industry, you know, it's still, you know, we hear it from Ariana Grande, we hear it from all sorts of people, obviously, it's still there. Do you see artists standing up to it? Or do you feel that it's difficult these days in this incredibly corporate world of the way it works now? I have no idea about that, because I don't pay any attention to it. I declared I was beyond gender on horses. I've had kids, you know, I've been a mother, I've washed hundreds of diapers. I know my own femaleness, but as an artist, I don't have any sense of any particular gender.

23:46But in terms of like young people now and what they're facing, they're doing a good job because music is well dominated by women, strong girls. They've got it. They have it under control. Whatever they're going through, they're doing their work and they're dominating. When I was on the charts briefly, I was told that I would never get on the top 10 because I was on the charts when Debbie Boone had the hit you light up my life is number one. And I thought, well, I could maybe be 10. They said, no, they only let one female on the top 10 at a time. I mean, I just laughed. I thought it was really stupid, but I didn't really care.

24:35You know, I wasn't filled with like, or consumed with the idea that I had to be on the top 10. You know, I just wanted the next thing to be even better. but yeah I think the girls are like the song the kids are all right the girls are all right they're facing a lot of stuff but they're facing it well

24:58thank you for listening to the interview from the BBC World Service you'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts including episodes with Stevie Wonder, tennis icon Martina Navratilova and Colombian artist Doris Salcedo. Until the next time, bye for now.

25:30If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. With the European Athletics Championships, the Men's FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games all taking place, 2026 is shaping up to be a terrific year for global sport.

26:15And the More Than The Score podcast will be following all the action, bringing you interviews with sports stars and exploring the stories beyond the score sheets with the BBC's expert sports journalists. More Than The Score from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for More Than The Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.