In short
Episode topic: BBC World Service interview with Indian filmmaker Rohan Kanawadeh about his debut feature Cactus Pears (Sabarbonda), a Marathi-language gay love story set during a 10-day mourning period after a father’s death; he discusses coming out, grief, rural Maharashtra customs, and filmmaking choices (no background score, naturalistic sound, intimate staging).
Guest backgrounds
Rohan Kanawadeh is an acclaimed Indian film director from a poor area of Mumbai; his father was a chauffeur and his mother a homemaker. He is gay and says his parents accepted his sexuality.
Key claims
Acceptance came from parental love, not education or “progressive” reading; love can be “simple” even amid social pressure. He reimagined mourning through tenderness rather than tragedy. He filmed intimacy without an intimacy coordinator to avoid making it feel “special.”
Notable examples
The film’s 10-day rituals (staying inside, black tea, limited meals, shaving head). The cactus metaphor (thorny outside, tender sweet inside). Sundance milestones: first Marathi film to premiere there and first Indian drama to win the International Grand Jury Prize.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOComing Out Experience
3:07 to 4:18
Rohan shares his fears and eventual acceptance from his parents about his sexuality.
“When I was grieving my father in a village, everyone was just talking about my marriage.”
Grief and Cultural Rituals
4:18 to 5:59
Rohan discusses his father's death and the cultural rituals surrounding mourning in his community.
“So that's why I thought I should reimagine it way where love blossoms in a time where this person is grieving the loss of his parent.”
Parental Acceptance and Love
6:01 to 7:48
Rohan reflects on his parents' unconditional love and acceptance of his identity.
“And all the stories that I heard about coming, they were all tragic at that time.”
Mother's Role in the Film
7:48 to 9:50
Rohan talks about the character of the mother in his film and audience reactions to her.
“But they just felt that whatever is my happiness is, you know, they should just accept it.”
Cactus Pear Symbolism
9:50 to 10:46
Rohan explains the metaphor of the cactus pear and its significance in the film.
“And I did this because I knew if I showed this kind of parents, I knew that some kids who will maybe, you know, it will help them to take a chance to come out to their parents.”
Cactus Pear Symbolism
11:46 to 12:44
Rohan explains the metaphor of the cactus pear and its significance in the film.
“I love hosting summer parties, but dread reaching over a hot oven door to juggle appetizer trays.”
Filming in Maharashtra
12:50 to 14:00
Rohan shares insights about shooting his film in the village of Karshinde.
“t-shirt emblazoned with the words, re-imagine your future.”
Shooting in the Village
14:00 to 15:11
Learn about the challenges and community reactions to filming in a village.
“You know, one of the short films that I made before this in 2018, even that was situated in village.”
Capturing Authenticity
15:12 to 17:22
Discover the artistic choices behind the film's lack of background score.
“So in a way, as we spoke earlier that, you know, I was reimagining that period in a different way, but I was in a way creating a portrait of that time I spent there.”
Casting and Performance
17:23 to 19:21
Understand how the actors approached portraying gay characters authentically.
“it's how can it be different for a queer person?”
Show all 13 chapters
Filming Intimacy
19:22 to 21:06
Explore the filmmaker's approach to shooting intimate scenes without pressure.
“Is that allowed by the Indian censor board?”
Cultural Context in Storytelling
21:07 to 23:08
Learn about the significance of cultural issues depicted in the film.
“Even heterosexual men came up to me saying, you know what, it didn't matter to us that we were watching two men falling in love.”
Emotional Impact of the Film
23:09 to 24:20
Hear what emotional responses the film invokes in its audience.
“apart from the fact that we witness and are there for a really beautiful, tender, poignant love story and a young man being able to love his father even in death?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rohan Kanawade:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:30Rohan Kanawade:Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen at schwab.com slash Washington Wise. That's schwab.com slash Washington Wise. Hello, I'm Nikki Badey and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations from the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this is fire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do.
1:16Rohan Kanawade:This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview, I met Indian filmmaker Rohan Kanewani, in the BBC studios in London. The acclaimed director, whose debut feature Cactus Pears or Sabarbonda, has made history. It's the first Marathi language film to premiere at the prestigious Sundance Film Festival. It also became the first Indian drama to win the festival's International Grand Jury Prize. Drawing on his experience of mourning his father, he reveals how grief, memory and identity found their way into the film. and talks about growing up in a poor area of Mumbai with parents who accepted and supported his sexuality.
2:03Nikki Bedi:Before coming out to my parents, I was really scared because all the stories I had heard from the friends in Mumbai who come from a rich background, their parents were educated, and their parents never accepted them. And all the stories that I heard about coming out, they were all tragic at that time. So I was also thinking about that, oh, if I come out, my father couldn't even finish his school, my mom is illiterate, they will not understand they will literally throw me out of the house I used to imagine those movements yeah but when I came out my father within a minute he said you know you know about yourself that's most important so there's no need to get married to anyone even my mother you know she said okay you know don't worry about the villagers they won't understand this thing so you don't worry about them and what I felt at that moment what made them accept me the way I am is love and most of the time I think this is what we never show in the films it's that simple We just complicate these things.
2:56Nikki Bedi:But if there is love, things are easy.
3:01Rohan Kanawade:Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Rohan Khanewadeh.
3:07Nikki Bedi:When I was grieving my father in a village, everyone was just talking about my marriage. And I could not come out to them because that was not the time to do that. Because I was not too sure how the relatives will react to my coming out. And if they react in a negative way, I was not too sure how they will treat my mom afterwards. So and at that moment, she also needed the relative support. So I had to be quiet and endure that marriage pressure for that for those 10 days. And I could not really grieve at that time because continuously I was thinking, I don't know who's going to come next. I'm going to ask me the same question.
3:42Nikki Bedi:I'm going to face that. So I was busy in those thoughts and it was quite claustrophobic. so when I got this idea for a film where a character meets a childhood friend I thought I can you know infuse this story with love and because of that childhood friend at least this lead character gets to stay away from this marriage pressure for a while and can spend some you know tender moments with the childhood friend which was not for me so at least I thought this film will allow me to do that and reimagine that whole period in a completely different way. So that's why I thought I should reimagine it way where love blossoms in a time where this person is grieving the loss of his parent.
4:28Rohan Kanawade:So the film unfolds across this 10 day mourning period after Anand's father's death. For people who are unfamiliar with the customs, could you explain what that time means socially and emotionally for the family.
4:45Nikki Bedi:Yeah, I mean, emotionally, of course, it meant a lot to my mother because I don't really believe in those rituals. But there are a few reasons why those rituals exist. You have things like, you know, the whole 10 days you have to stay inside the house.
5:00Rohan Kanawade:Inside the house and only drink black tea.
5:03Nikki Bedi:Yeah, without milk, no rice.
5:06Rohan Kanawade:Only two cooked meals a day.
5:08Nikki Bedi:Yes, and only one helping. You can't take second helping.
5:11Rohan Kanawade:And you've got to sleep on the floor?
5:13Nikki Bedi:Yes.
5:14Rohan Kanawade:And then at the end of the 10 days, Anand or the son in whichever family it is, shaves their head.
5:21Nikki Bedi:Yeah. Basically, in these 10 days, people like relatives come to meet you. So when they come, you should be at home. So that's why these rituals are there. Like, you know, you should not go out. So you should not wear footwear. So you will not go out because that region is very hot. So, you know, you can't walk barefoot. So, again, you should not wear a cap because it's hot. But, you know, if you can't wear a cap, you will not go out. And if you're not going out, not doing any work, just sitting and sleeping on the floor, you don't have to eat so much food. So there's logic to it. Yeah, but people don't know, most of them.
5:55Nikki Bedi:They just follow it because it's been happening for years.
5:59Rohan Kanawade:You were raised in Mumbai. Your father was a chauffeur. Your mother was a homemaker. Your parents accepted your sexuality. your family in the village responded differently or would have done if they'd found out especially at the time of mourning your father what do you think it was that made your parents so different
6:19Nikki Bedi:yeah I actually you know before coming out to my parents I was really scared I was not too sure how they will react to it because all the stories I had heard from the friends in Mumbai who come from a rich background, their parents were educated, and their parents never accepted them. And all the stories that I heard about coming, they were all tragic at that time. So I was also thinking about those, you know, that, oh, if I come out, my father couldn't even finish his school, my mom is illiterate, they will not understand, they will literally throw me out of the house. I used to imagine those moments.
6:52Nikki Bedi:But when I came out, my father, within a minute, he said, you know, you know about yourself, that's most important. So there's no need to get married to anyone. Even my mother, you know, she said, you know, don't worry about the villagers they won't understand this thing so you don't worry about them and what I felt at that moment what made them accept me the way I am is that they love their son and that love was the simple thing that allowed them to accept me and most of the time I think this is what we never show in the films and you know it's it's that simple we just complicate these things and But if there is love, things are easy.
7:30Nikki Bedi:Like I've heard from some parents where, you know, when their children came out to them, they had to educate themselves by reading books on homosexuality and stuff like that, where my mother can't even read anything and not my even my father never read any books. So they didn't have to go and read any books about homosexuality. But they just felt that whatever is my happiness is, you know, they should just accept it.
7:53Rohan Kanawade:So I mean, it's that simple. But people, it's simple in your mind, but it's also some people will consider them to be incredibly progressive.
8:02Nikki Bedi:Exactly, exactly.
8:03Rohan Kanawade:The mother in the film is such a beautiful character. She's the heroine of the film because she, like you describe your mother, is uneducated, but so independent thinking. I mean, she does ignore societal norms to some degree. and I just wondered how the audiences have responded to her character so far.
8:25Nikki Bedi:I mean, at the script level, some people who read it, they were saying that they loved the mother a lot. But when the film, of course, premiered and people have been seeing the film, I've got messages from people that where they said that, you know, I wish I had that kind of a mother or that kind of a father. Recently, I was in Delhi for the screening and one of the guys over there, he said you know I'm still not out to my mother and I don't think she will understand so I just hope that I get to have a conversation like Anand has in the film I'm not too sure if that will happen but I'm still scared to come out to her but I really wish films like this allow some people like me to experience moments that they cannot really experience in their own life similarly I did the same thing for myself in the film like I never get to hug my father you know you have this weird relationship between son and father not always but there is most of the time so I never got to hug my father ever even though he was very supportive and everything never got to hug my father so only thing that I did on his deathbed when the doctor told me that he has last 11 minutes so I just stood next to him and he was in ICU so I didn't know what to do so I just held his hand till that time but this film actually allowed me to create the moment where the character hugs his father.
9:45Nikki Bedi:So, you know, sometimes I think films allow you to do that. So similarly, some people really said that, you know, I wish I had that kind of a parent. And I did this because I knew if I showed this kind of parents, I knew that some kids who will maybe, you know, it will help them to take a chance to come out to their parents.
10:07Rohan Kanawade:Also, it could help the parents. Yeah, exactly. The cactus pear is a fruit protected by thorns. Tell me what that's a metaphor for. I mean, there is a beautiful scene in the film. We don't want to give it away. But what's the literal?
10:24Nikki Bedi:OK, so without giving that away, I can't actually tell you the reason why I felt that that's the name. But the other reasons I feel that when we think about cactus, we think about a harsh environment where cactus grows, survives, And it has this fruit which is thorny from outside. But if you reach the flesh, it's really tender, sweet. And it has lots of medicinal quality. Similarly, I felt these two characters in the film, they are going through a lot of hardships, like pressure from the parents and the society. But they know what they are. So they are navigating that pressure and want to stay true to themselves.
11:00Nikki Bedi:And at the same time, during this 10 day grieving period, there is love blossoming between them. the colour red is also associated we associate with love and when these two guys are together they really spend tender moments, sweet moments and that's why I thought one reason, you know I could see that, you know, parallels with the tree and their lives and the relationship and that's why I thought I think this is a right name for the film and there is one important moment in the film, now you told me not to share it so I won't show it which became People should see the film, shouldn't they?
11:37Rohan Kanawade:You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.
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12:30Rohan Kanawade:Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances. Choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place, so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more. When Rohan Karniwadi came into the studio, he was beaming and relaxed, wearing a bright red t-shirt emblazoned with the words, re-imagine your future. He was thoughtful whilst reflecting upon his experience of being a gay man in an Indian community where it's still unusual to be accepted. And he was passionate about filmmaking. I have Maharashtran heritage, so I loved the backdrop of this film, the bones and sinews of the landscape, the women wearing nine-yard saris.
13:24Rohan Kanawade:I also loved hearing the Marathi dialogue. Even though I don't speak the language, it took me straight back to my childhood and instantly watered those roots. And Rohan told me it was very important to him to reflect his childhood and his Maharashtran customs in the film. Back to my conversation with Rohan Kanewade. The landscape of rural Maharashtra is a character in this film. You shot the film in a small village called Karshinde, which is where your mother was born and raised. How did the villagers respond to a film crew descending?
14:01Nikki Bedi:You know, one of the short films that I made before this in 2018, even that was situated in village. And at that time, also, I went to Karshinde to see locations and the villagers were excited that, you know, there will be film shot in the village, but I never shot it. So, So when with this film in 2021, I started doing the Reiki again and went to this village. People were like, but you will not shoot the film here. So they were like not really excited. But finally, after three years, when I finally decided I will shoot here, they were all happy and excited. Some of the villagers came on board to help us.
14:32Nikki Bedi:So they were part of the crew as well. Although I never told them what is the film all about.
14:36Rohan Kanawade:Oh, that was going to be my question. Because, yeah, was there any issue with this being a gay love story?
14:43Nikki Bedi:Yes. So basically, I didn't want to tell them. But so we told them it's a story about two friends who meet after a long time. And for them, they were like, OK, but when is the heroine going to come? When is the heroine going to come?
Read the full transcript
14:53Rohan Kanawade:In Bollywood cinema, it's quite formulaic. So along with your hero, you have a heroine.
14:59Nikki Bedi:And the song sequences. So they were excited. When are you going to shoot song sequence? And I was like, you know what? There is not even a background music in the film. And they were like, what? What kind of film it is? Actually, I wanted to ask you about your decision not to have a background score.
15:11Rohan Kanawade:Why was that?
15:12Nikki Bedi:So in a way, as we spoke earlier that, you know, I was reimagining that period in a different way, but I was in a way creating a portrait of that time I spent there. Yeah, I've been going to that village since my childhood. So I have spent time in forest on the mountains with my cousins who is to graze goats or, you know, I have gone to that same lake to swim and stuff like that. So I know how the time feels and, you know, that's how the village sounds or the colors of it. so I wanted to create that feeling as if you are in that village and you know when you're just talking with your mother on the veranda or with your partner or lover on the terrace how does that actually feel so I wanted to get that feel right and a film like this where it feels simple but I felt if it feels real you know that will create a big impact and that is why I had to stay away from, you know, there's other aspects of filmmaking that may sometimes heighten the emotions.
16:11Nikki Bedi:But I wanted to heighten the emotions from actual moments of intimacy or conversation or just being in that space. Your cast of actors from the region, what sort of challenges did you
16:24Rohan Kanawade:face then? Or did they have to overcome in order to play gay characters or to understand that this was a gay story.
16:33Nikki Bedi:Yeah, to be honest, when they came for the audition, they didn't play this character the way, you know, most people imagine how the gay person should be. They played it as normal as it could be. And that's what I had told them. You know, you don't have to play differently. Just be who you are because being gay is just that. That doesn't mean that man will behave differently. You just be as a man. They got it. They just got it. And because they also, they've been seeing me, my partner, and they have a few friends because see, you will find queer people in film industry a lot. So they have other friends.
17:06Nikki Bedi:So they have been seeing it. And most of the time, even Bollywood has only shown it in that, you know, stereotypical, cliched way. Yeah. But here's...
17:14Rohan Kanawade:High camp.
17:15Nikki Bedi:Yeah, yeah. But they understood. So, and I said, you know, love is love. Love is similar for queer people. It's similar for the straight people. When you feel love for someone, it's how can it be different for a queer person? So you just feel that and you don't have to, you know, do anything. You just listen to us and we'll just guide you. And they just did that. And they were completely OK with it.
17:36Rohan Kanawade:What about filming the intimate scenes? I mean, there's a moment of tenderness when Balia spots white hairs on Anand's head and then he moves his hands and caresses them. And that was so beautiful and so tender. There is also a scene with completely naked male bodies and they're entwined. How did you approach filming that?
17:59Nikki Bedi:so yeah i mean you know people did ask me did i use any intimacy coordinator or something i said no because i feel by doing those things you are actually you know continuously talking about so oh we are going to do something different so for that we need this separate person who will teach you how to do it but i was like being with someone or showing this intimacy or love to another person it's a basic human thing i mean you guys must have experienced that with your partner so just bring that and by not talking about it all the time I was not creating that kind of an environment oh this is going to be something because then again those actors will feel pressure you know and thankfully these two guys are friends when they started studying acting so since then they have been together they work together so they have this existing friendship so I thought I can actually even use it for some of this movement so you know we did not really talk about it a lot we approach that sequence also as normally as we were approaching other sequences.
18:54Nikki Bedi:So that made them also comfortable. I had done the storyboard myself. So 90 % images that you see on screen, I had drawn them. I had drawn that sequence also how it's going to be shot. So they could see it and they were completely okay with it. And where these two guys were lying in on the ground, we also created this, you know, barricade of the cloth. So even the other team members cannot really see them. So that's how we did it and then we shot the sequence.
19:22Rohan Kanawade:Is that allowed by the Indian censor board?
19:25Nikki Bedi:They didn't even allow us to, you know, keep any cuss words also in the film. Even though it's rated adult, still we had to mute it.
19:35Rohan Kanawade:Oh no, so just go back a second. So how has this been classified in India?
19:40Nikki Bedi:Adult. Adult. Yeah. 18 plus.
19:42Rohan Kanawade:Okay, so has the film been shown in India in cinemas?
19:46Nikki Bedi:Yes, it released in last year, September. And people went to watch it. In fact, it also released in a theatre near to the village where we shot the film. So the people of the, you know, neighbouring village, even the villagers, they went to watch it. And? And, see, I always felt that it all depends how we are telling that story. Here, we were not trying to sensationalise it or making these characters victim. Rather, they know about themselves, they are okay with it and they want to just be happy. and there was love that people felt was so genuine and organic. So villagers really loved the film.
20:22Nikki Bedi:Their only complaint was when they came out of the theatre, they were like, why there is no poster of the film outside the theatre? Because they said, we wanted to make a reel about the film. We wanted to stand next to the poster and make a reel so that we could share it with the other villagers so they can come to watch it. And that's how it was received.
20:38Rohan Kanawade:That's very supportive then.
20:39Nikki Bedi:And see, even with my previous film, You for Rousha, which was a queer film shot in a village, Same thing. At that time, I never told the villagers what the film is all about. But when they came to watch the film, the film was a really positive portrayal of a single mother exploring the same six attraction for the first time. And she was happy exploring that. And audience was on the same journey. So they never felt, oh, this is something bad. So I think it's always how you tell those stories. And even in the theaters, when it released, I met people who said we watched it five times in the theater.
21:11Nikki Bedi:So I met so many of those people. I got so many messages from people. Even heterosexual men came up to me saying, you know what, it didn't matter to us that we were watching two men falling in love. What mattered to us that love was so innocent, so sweet, so organic. And we just wanted them to end up together because even they knew that some of the queer films always end in tragedy. And they were worried that something like that, that's going to happen. But that didn't happen. And so people were really happy with it.
21:39Rohan Kanawade:There are many Indian issues touched upon in the film. Female infanticide as girls are unwanted. You allude to the dowry system. You don't mention it. Will you explain very briefly for people listening what the dowry system is? It's outlawed. It's not legal anymore to have a dowry.
22:00Nikki Bedi:Am I right? Yeah, but also now not all of them also follow that. Now there are people who wants to be, you know, the modern ones. So they don't really take dowries or anything. But yeah, dowry is something where girls family have to, you know, fulfill the demands of the groom's family. Yeah. So sometimes people who don't have that kind of a money, they have to sell their lands and stuff and raise that money. And also in older times, it was girls family who had to bear all the cost of the marriage. Of the wedding. Yeah. And then there's lots of money that they need. So sometimes, you know, they sell their properties and stuff and do this thing.
22:38Nikki Bedi:So even now that happens, but now it is reversed because as you said, you know, and which is in the film as well, because of the female infantisers, there are not that many women. and those who are there, they're highly educated. So they don't want to marry farmers. They want to marry men who have either office jobs or who live in the cities. And because of that, many farmers can't get married. So now what they do, now they give money. So it's reversed. It's great, isn't it?
23:06Rohan Kanawade:It's reversed. Yeah. What do you hope that people will take away from this film apart from the fact that we witness and are there for a really beautiful, tender, poignant love story and a young man being able to love his father even in death?
23:26Nikki Bedi:Oh, I think the experience of being a human, you know, I think that, I guess, I think more than anything, and I think people also, they've been saying the way they see the relationship in the films because it also made some people, you know, I want to talk to my father. this made them do that and people really said that or something like I want to hug my father I want to hug my mother I've never done that but this film really made me do that so I think if this film invokes those feeling in people and just have the conversations with their parents which they never had I think that that's most important I mean a film should just make people feel those things, maybe have those emotions long after a film has ended.
24:14Nikki Bedi:And if that happens, and if something changes in them, I think that helps. Or some people who said, you know, they lost their parents, and this film helped heal something in them.
24:27Rohan Kanawade:Yeah.
24:31Rohan Kanawade:Thank you for listening to The Interview. For more compelling conversations, search for The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You'll find episodes from director Christopher Nolan, actor Diego Calva, the legendary musician Ringo Starr and many, many more. Until next time, thank you for your ears.
25:06Rohan Kanawade:There is a place where we can find answers Where journeys break new ground And connections unlock opportunities Where innovation can spark real change And our actions can push our world forward Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact
From the publisher
‘Their love was so innocent, so sweet, so organic and we just wanted them to end up together because even they knew that some of the queer films always end in tragedy and they were worried that something like that's going to happen but that didn't happen and so people were really happy with it.’ Nikki Bedi speaks to Rohan Kanawade, the acclaimed director whose debut feature Cactus Pears or Sabar Bonda, made history as the first Marathi-language film to premiere at the prestigious Sundance Film Festival. It also became the first Indian drama to win the festival's International Grand Jury Prize. Set in Kanawade’s home state of Maharashtra, Cactus Pears is a groundbreaking Marathi-language love story between two men. Drawing on his experience of mourning his father, he reveals how grief, memory and identity found their way into his film. He also talks about growing up in a poor area of Mumbai with parents who accepted and supported his sexuality.
Thank you to the Arts Hour team for their help in making this programme. The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the BBC, including episodes with director Christopher Nolan, actor Diego Calva and the legendary musician Ringo Starr. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presenter: Nikki Bedi Producer: Farhana Haider Editor: Damon Rose
Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.
(Image: Rohan Kanawade. Credit: Getty)