Samuel Okudzeto Ablakwa, Ghana’s Foreign Minister: Slavery scars our collective conscience

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0:30your travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Bite into a stacked sandwich made with Hero Bread. And the only thing you'll think is delicious. You won't think it has up to 19 grams protein, 11 to 32 grams of fiber, or just zero to five grams net carbs. But it does. Hero Bread, no compromises, just loaves, buns, tortillas, bagels, and noodles packed with flavor. Right now, get 10 % off at Hero.co with code IHEART. That's H-E-R-O dot C-O, code IHEART. All figures per serving of Hero Bread. See Nutrition Facts on Hero.co. Hello, I'm Alim McBool, the BBC's Religion Editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service.

1:14The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. I want to get freedom. I like their freedom. A gender-equal world would be a better world for men too. We need ceasefire. We need healing. We need trust. These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. For this interview in Accra, I met Samuel Akujato-Ablakwa, Ghana's Minister for Foreign Affairs. Earlier this year, the United Nations adopted an historic resolution that declared the transatlantic slave trade the gravest crime against humanity, Though crucially in the vote, every European nation chose to abstain.

2:02Between the 16th and 19th centuries, it's estimated around 12 million people were forcibly trafficked from Africa to European colonies in the Americas, although some historians place this figure even higher. Nearly two centuries on from the abolition of the transatlantic slave trade, Ghana, which was one of the worst affected countries, is now leading a global push for reparations. A cross-campaign has been supported by countries all over the world, although not so much by European nations. It has, though, been recognised by some European institutions, like the Church of England, with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dame Sarah Mullally, recently visiting Ghana's Cape Coast castle where slaves were held before being forced on ships.

2:51So that is why we have this moral outrage, which is not outrage to seek division, to call for war, or to just open up old wounds. That's not what Ghana is doing. Ghana is leading this effort so that we can have real reckoning, we can have reconciliation, we can have healing.

3:14Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Samuel Okujato-Oblakwa. As you know, we're focusing a lot on the Archbishop of Canterbury's visit, which in itself has got some focus on the issue of reparations. Now, Ghana recently, and you, have been very focused on this issue and being at the forefront of movement of the United Nations, galvanizing global views on this, there's a lot you have to deal with right now. Why focus on this issue? Why is Ghana at the forefront of this issue? So first of all, let me commend the new ad bishop of Canterbury for deciding to visit Africa and for making Ghana her first country to visit.

4:05Ghana is a very Christian nation over, you know, More than 70 % are Christians, and so we really cherish this visit. Having said that, Ghana is at the forefront of the reparatory justice movement because we take the view that we have a moral obligation to offer leadership, inspiration, and seek justice, which has eluded Africa on this matter for centuries. And we do that because Ghana, let's be honest, we have the highest number of slave castles and forts. It is fair to admit that Ghana was the crime scene where these atrocities took place. More than 12.5 million Africans forcibly removed, torn from their families, from homes, from villages, into ships across the transatlantic ocean.

5:03and dehumanized on a scale never seen, unspeakable horror. Ghana cannot afford to be silent on this consequential matter, which has to do with historical justice, seeking restitution and ensuring that we hold perpetrators accountable. You talk about the importance of Ghana raising its voice as a country, but to what end? What is being sought at this point? So we seek acknowledgement. There are many who have refused to apologize, have refused to take responsibility, have refused to reckon, be they nations, institutions like churches. And let's face it, the ad Bishop of Canterbury is here and I must commend her for making time to visit, to come to Thames.

6:02You have the Catholic Church, for example, write the papal books, Pope Nicholas V and others, who justified that these are not human beings. They are not deserving of mercy and of human rights and created the theological doctrine for slavery to be perpetrated. Then you also have the fact that even after the slaves have been removed from the continent to the Caribbeans, you had churches like the Anglican Church who were busy making money, profiteering. If you take the Anglican organization known as SPG, you know, the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, they owned plantation farms and were active.

6:53So apart from developing the theological doctrines to justify slavery, they were active participants. The church played such an active role. And you have, until recently, when the Pope apologized, you had many who refused to accept that they were part of this heinous crime. They developed the system. They designed it. They were architects. They were masterminds. and benefited all the way to even when slavery was abolished in the UK in 1833. The church received compensation. Their businesses, entities linked to the church, including the Anglican church, received compensation. And yet we, the victims, descendants of the victims, have never been compensated.

7:43So that is why we have this moral outrage, which is not outrage to seek division, to call for war, or to just open up old wounds. That's not what Ghana is doing. Ghana is leading this effort so that we can have real reckoning. We can have reconciliation. We can have healing. Because we've done that. The International Committee has demonstrated that it is capable of reckoning with historical injustices. If you take what happened to the Jews, we all condemn what the Nazis did. And yet we see that when others like the Jews, like the Japanese, make rightful demands for reparative justice, they give it to them.

8:27So is it a matter of who is asking? The color of the skin of those who are demanding justice. So that is why we say that the time has come for the international community to be honest, not to be hypocritical, not to be selective, not to engage in erasure, but to admit that the gravest crime against humanity took place. and it took place on this continent. And that the time to repair what was broken, what undermines our collective humanity, what is a scar on our collective conscience, the time to repair that is now. When you talk about the resistance, what do you say to those people? Because when you're talking about nations, when you're talking about institutions, it certainly happened in the Church of England.

9:14You have those who say, this was a long time ago. Those who were directly affected have long passed. So while it can be acknowledged the complicity in what happened in nations as they were then, in institutions as they were then, these are things of the past. Why don't they make the same arguments for the Jews? Over six million Jews were killed. They are killed dead and gone. But why is it that it's important for us to compensate them? And the Germans have been paying reparations since. The Germans have apologized. And Nazi symbols have been criminalized. But there have been apologies at state levels around the world.

9:57Not every country has apologized. And apologies are not enough. Look, the reparatory justice we even seek would not necessarily be enough. Because, I mean, you can't value human lives, millions of human lives. But let's just say what you're talking about. Before we go on, what are you talking about? where in terms of financial repentance, I suppose, what are you talking about in practical terms, about how that money is spent, where it goes? So in practical terms, first we want to see genuine acknowledgement and apologies. They are those who are engaging in minimalism, distortion, trying to even legalize it.

10:39They claim that they had laws that legitimized what was going on. They are bad laws, like laws that justify apartheid, for example. I mean, you can't say that those are good laws. So we have bad laws. So they need to stop that. Two, restitution. As we speak, many of our cultural artifacts of enormous significance remain in the possession of these European nations, profiting at our expense, making a lot of money in their museums. They don't want to return them. We want it returned. And that is why I must commend the Dutch government and the German government, who have reached out to us only recently, presented to us a catalog of over 2 million artifacts that they are willing to return.

11:23And I must commend them. And I encourage other European nations. But that is issues you have with colonialism. But we're talking about when it comes to the transatlantic slave trade, in making financial recompense, how do you want nations to invest in this kind of repentance? First, we want the government to admit that they owe a debt, and then we sit and work out a scheme. We are not interested in direct financial gain to African leaders. That's not what we're interested in. Can we design courses, so educational grants, scholarships for our young people? This is the youngest continent. How do we create opportunities?

12:04Can we have some venture capital support system for young entrepreneurs? Can we look at the health and enduring health consequences so that we invest in, say, scientific research? We have issues with diabetes. And research has shown that a lot of these health burdens are as a consequence of what's happened during the transatlantic enslavement. The very, you know, inhumane treatment, you know, very poor nutrition and all of that. It's been carried across many generations. So can we invest in research to address these other causes that we want Western nations to support? We are not interested in direct funds coming to us.

12:51You have been talking, for example, about tech training. And let me emphasize that we will continue with our current development paradigm. We are not dependent on reparatory justice compensation to develop our countries. But you have been talking about debt relief, for example. It is about justice. It is about being held accountable. And that is what we seek. You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service.

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15:14OK, let's return to my conversation with Samuel Akujito Ablakwa. You will have heard, of course, another view of those opposed to reparative justice. And we can see it certainly in a place like Ghana, where you had those oppressors, those who profited, who were from some tribes here in Ghana themselves. There is some consternation, even among some Ghanaians we've spoken to, that some of those tribes that were involved, they are the ones who retained power. They benefited from that involvement for generations after that. Are you also looking to pursue some ways by which they can also somehow make amends?

16:05That is a myth. It is a historical falsehood. You have been in Ghana over the past few days. The kind of wealth that the transatlantic enslavement generated, do you see that here? You know, when you look at the history, there are just a few individuals, lackeys, you want to call them, who were brought on board to assist these people who designed the system. When they were designing the system, putting together the laws, the architecture, the insurance policies and all of that, there was no African at the table. So there cannot be a shared responsibility in this matter. It's a total distortion.

16:46And we denounce and totally reject those claims that Africans are as guilty and complicit as those who masterminded this whole atrocity. There are those who, even those Ghanaians who say, by spending so much energy on this issue, we are somehow, Ghanai is somehow being held back from focusing on what Ghanaians themselves can do for their economy, for society. and perhaps it is time to stop looking at the past. For some, it will feel like excuses being made for things not being as they should be. What do you say to those people? I say to those people that the very structure of the world we live in today, which everybody admits is rigged against African people and African nations, the mass discrimination, racism, all trace their roots from the transatlantic enslavement.

17:51What we seek to do is to build a new world order, a world without racism, without discrimination, an even playing field for all. And our focus on preparatory justice does not mean that we are going to abandon our mandates to transform our societies as political leaders, to create opportunities for our young people. We are not doing that. We are not saying that we are waiting for reparatory justice, financial compensation before we can develop. Not at all. But it is important to recognize that in this world of mass discrimination, of racism, a rigged world order, No matter the progress we make, if we don't change the fundamental structure of our world, we cannot achieve might.

18:45It has to be put in proper perspective. You will have heard this argument too. There are those who are saying, actually, in terms of moving things forward, in terms of getting to a point where things are moving towards eradicating racism, This is not the way because reparatory justice reparations are in themselves divisive because you're talking about giving resources based on race. That's what some people say, that these calls for reparations are exacerbating divisions, not healing them. I totally disagree. That is why we have affirmative action principles where you bring up those who have been subjugated, who have been maligned, and who have been relegated.

19:33So opening up to a reparatory justice discussion is only trying to bring up the vulnerable, those who face injustice, historical injustice. And let me emphasize that since the adoption of the historic UN resolution, Resolution A slash ARIA slash 80 slash 250, a resolution I shall never ever forget in my life, we have seen the kind of progress that all the cynics, naysayers, and skeptics are clearly embarrassed about. We have seen France admit that they have to take action. You have the Dutch, the Germans, presenting to us a catalogue of more than 2 million artifacts they are willing to return.

20:23Then you have Denmark publicly saying at our Next Steps conference a few weeks ago that they will now dedicate funding to preserve the forts and castles which they built. they say that to promote truth-telling they are going to help preserve it so that never again will humanity return to that dark era so all those skeptics who said look nothing will be achieved the Ghana-led resolution is just hot air and there will be no progress they must be ashamed you have Pope Leo himself for the first time apologizing on behalf of the Catholic Church and committing we've had further engagements the Catholic Church is willing to carry out concrete efforts to build confidence and to show the kind of regret which the Pope has expressed.

21:17So a lot of progress is being made, and we think we're on the right path. The momentum is on our side, and we urge countries that are still sitting on the fence to come on board because this is a good faith effort. We don't seek division. We don't seek to sow the seeds of hatred. we are saying that let us just acknowledge what has happened. We bear no grudge, no malice. Let's work together and build a new society, a society based on justice, based on truth, based on a certain equal understanding and fellow feeling for one another. That is the kind of world that we all should be committed to. You say that momentum is on your side.

21:57Is the political landscape around the Western world on your side? We have seen maybe a change in how people have looked at this. Certainly, for example, take the example of the Church of England, which made a commitment to invest£100 million in reparative justice projects. Once it had gone through, its archives, its financial audits were done, and it revealed the connections that there had been to the transatlantic slave trade. That commitment was made in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd in the United States. Now, since then, the political landscape within the church in the UK has changed, where there has been something of a backlash against, for example, affirmative action, the thing that you talked about before.

22:50And that's not the only country where that is happening. In the United States, we've seen a similar political movement. So is this the wrong time to be pushing for something like reparative justice, given where politics is? I think that to be fair, the UK and the US are proven to be countries that, even though many other Western countries have been very open and very fortright, taking advantage of this moment and the golden opportunity that the UN resolution offers. It appears to me that the UK and the US, current political leadership in particular, want to use reparatory justice as a distraction and to distort what this is about, to make it look as though these African countries are just looking for money.

23:42And then you hear some of them saying the banks are closed and that we will impose visa sanctions and all of that. We don't think they get it. And we are not going to be caught up in their domestic politics. You alluded to what the Pope has said recently in his presenting of his new encyclical. He talked about the Church taking far, far too long to recognize the horrors of transatlantic slavery and to condemn it, and that mistake should never be made again. And you alluded to the fact that they codified some of the rules that made transatlantic slavery acceptable at some time. Is that why they have a special role to play here?

24:27Yes, I think that the role of the church should be seen within a multidimensional framework. They are guilty, we all have to admit. They prepared the theological basis, created the doctrines for it, and the paper booths, for example. Even on the farms, they created new Bibles. Many people don't know that there was a separate Bible for slaves, which taught slaves to be very obedient, very loyal, and accept suffering and pain. It removed any references to equality. They removed references to equality. The more slavery and pain you accept, the better your reward in heaven, so that they can keep them as firm hands, as cheap labor, false labor, and subjugate them, violate their rights in the manner in which they did.

25:19So the church must reckon with its own history. But also, the church must accept that a lot of the political leaders, particularly in some of these far-right countries where we are seeing a lot of nationalism and all of that, they are all professing to be Christians. They hold the Bible. They flaunt the Bible. So the church has a special responsibility to speak to members of their congregation who are in the political elite. I mean, the UK has just had a new prime minister who's flaunting his Catholic credentials. And you have the Pope saying that, look, we have to admit that this has gone wrong.

25:58How will the church look when its leaders are professing something different from its members? Well, has the Vatican itself backed it up with financial recompense? The Pope has indicated that they are willing to engage. And we think that that is a significant first step. Unlike a lot of British politicians who are saying that they don't even want the discussion. This belongs to the past. They don't even want to hear about it. And I hope that the petition that Jamaica will be presenting to the king, King Charles, sometime in September, I hope that that will begin to mark a watershed moment and a new dawn.

26:39Because for the king and the Privy Council to provide a date and indicate some willingness to accept the petition, I think that it's quite a significant step forward. And I hope that it will help to really tame all those hardliners who think that we should not be having this discussion.

27:03Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with former Sudanese leader Aisha Moussa, microfinance pioneer Jennifer Riria and Dr Tedros Adhanom Gebreyesus, Director General of the World Health Organization. Until next time, bye for now.

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